Post by MajahTR on Jan 17, 2009 1:44:29 GMT -6
Megn1 will be responsible to track prophesy throughout FotR, including chapter and general location details. Please feel free to comment on the findings. If you feel one was missed, please, include it yourself.
DA
Major discovery number one:
I could find no prophesies in Chapter two of FOTR. Help me out anyone, if you see any. I was very surprised. If you had asked me where you should start looking for prophesies, I'd have said Chapter two. Guess I don't know this book as well as I thought. Gandalf tells the story of the ring to Frodo, but it is very different from the way that it is told in Chapter two of book II. There we get the propesies (I think...).
I haven't found any prophesies yet, but these two quotes from chapter one are slightly relevant to this thread. I would call them "intuitive predictions," rather than prophesies. Both will prove to be correct.
"There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth. 'It will have to be paid for,' they said. 'It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it.'"
- from the opening description of Bilbo, second paragraph of Chapter 1, FOTR
"'Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you, I says to him.'"
- Gaffer Gamgee, reporting a conversation he had with Sam, as Sam has had great interest in Bilbo's stories. Fourth page of Chapter 1, FOTR
Megn1
DaleAnn, and Megn,
First off let me state how in awe I am of the efforts put forth to this study. Incredible, and down right compelling, I keep trying to finish other things but am drawn to your boards as if my will was not my own.
Not wishing to disrupt the continuity of the boards I'm loath to offer this, but then again it might be a solution to your boogle.
Perhaps you might include forshadowing within the prophesy tracking such as what Megn has already gathered here. I mean technically foreshadowing is an authors tool, that in some cases can be argued as being narrative prophesy.
I think when looking at it in this light you might be able to pick and choose from many delightful qoutes.
Just a suggestion, from someone who should be working on other things.
Namárië,
Iarwain
Though I hate to give her credit for it, another possible "intuitive prediction" comes from Lobelia SB, a page or 2 from the end of BookI Chap1: To Frodo "You'll live to regret it young fellow. Why didn't you go too? You don't belong here;..." Of course, her reasoning is because he's a more of a Brandybuck, than a Baggins...But, it does come true "You don't belong here."
And even the "live to regret it" part of the prediction comes true. While on the journey Frodo has regrets every time he wishes he was somewhere else or in some different time. In the end though (I'm a bit foggy), I don't believe he has any regrets.
Megn and Iarwain: Megn1 has full authority on this thread. I don't have a say in it. But, my dear overworked friend, Iarwain, if Megn does not wish to expand her topic...we could always make a new thread...Goodness knows I've had lots of practice....
DA
'Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you, I says to him.'"
Just thought to throw this in....About half way into the chapter Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit of TTT, Sam wishes he had potatoes. By this time he's seen Elves (no Dragons) and plenty of dangerous things. Now, he's missing the "cabbages and potatoes" of life...
DA
Megn1: Any chance of coming up with a formalized statement of the parameters you would like to use for determining when a "predictive" statement can be seen as phrophetic? Are failed prophesies still prophesy? I agree that narrative forshadowings by the author are not "phrophecies," and the category of "intuitive predictions," as you aptly call them, seems lacking in real prophetic stature as well. So, what IS a prophesy?
Are there any sources out there, religious manuals, dictionaries, philosophical treatises, folklore compendia, or such, that allow you to generate a more or less strict, and precise definition -- something that we could all use in testing the "prophetic" nature of the many suspect statements we will undoubtedly run across in our readings of LotR?
Karo6
Just a short post to say that I'll research this question. A definition of prophesy will follow soon.
This thread is for prophesies or predictions KNOWN TO THE CHARACTERS in the story. That is different from foreshadowing, which is something the author offers to the reader, behind the back of the characters, who are left in the dark.
As DA says, anyone who wants to track foreshadowing is welcome to ask her for their own thread.
Megn1
The term prophesy does imply Divine Inspiration. It would almost certainly have to mean that the information came from Illuvatar or the Ainur. We could surmise that Bombadil and the Istar count for this. Much, though not all, of what is yet to be was revealed to the Ainur.
Also, prophesy is not always specific. I think this line is prophetic:
"My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least."
-Gandalf, The Shadow of The Past, The discussion of Gollum
and also
"Great perils lie before me." -Gandalf, The Shadow of The Past, when Frodo offers him the ring
Illadria
The question has been raised as to the difference between a prediction and a prophecy, and the precised definition of a prophecy. Following are two posts.
The first is the simple answer to those questions, and a working definition that we will use on this thread. Some will be satisfied with that.
The second post is a detailed study of the etymology of the words "prediction" and "prophecy," and some rambling thoughts on the nature of prophecy. Some will find this tedious.
Read the first post, and do what you will with the second.
Megn1
Prediction: To make a prediction is to declare in advance what will occur.
Prophecy: A prophecy is an inspired utterance. It may be about future events, or about the present reality. It's source is usually something other than observation, experience, or scientific reasoning. The "inspiration" might be intuition, a dream, a "hunch," or divine revelation.
Some prophecies are predictions, but not all, and not all predictions are prophecies.
Predictions that are prophecies: A prophecy which speaks of the future is a prediction. An example is the dream that Faramir and Boromir have which tells them that if they find Imladris "There shall be counsels taken stronger than Morgul-spells." It's source is inspired, and it tells of something that will happen.
Predictions that are not prophecies: A prediction based on experience is not a prophecy. An example is the statement by the hobbits that Bilbo's perpetual youth and inexhaustible wealth "will have to be paid for. It isn't natural, and trouble will come from it."
Prophecies that are not predictions: A prophecy which speaks an inspired truth about the present reality is not a prediction. An example is the first half of Bilbo's poem "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Also, Lobelia's statement about Frodo -- that he is not a Baggins, but a Brandybuck, and doesn't belong in Hobbiton -- might also fit in this category (if you consider her "inspired" at that moment).
In everyday language the two words have become largely synonymous, and the distinction will be blurry for many of the prophetic predictions that we uncover in FOTR. But we can use these working definitions to sharpen our conversation here.
This thread is a place to record all predictions, and all prophecies (whether predictive or not) that you uncover in your reading. (But no foreshadowing, as described above.)
Some more detailed information:
First, an apology. I have been misspelling the word "prophecy." I blame my spell checker, because I checked the word when this thread was first starting. But it wasn't until I consulted a dictionary that I realized my mistake.
Prophesy is a verb, which means to speak or write as a prophet.
Prophecy is a noun, which means the work or revelation of an inspired prophet.
Now we all know...
Some etymology:
Predict comes from Latin praedictus, which is from. prae- (meaning "pre-") and dicere (meaning "to say"). Literally it means "to say before."
Prophecy, and the related word Prophet, trace their roots back to the Greek word prophētēs. (The ē represents the Greek letter eta, and is pronounced "ay," so this word is said pro fay tays, with the final syllable sounding like the "tas" in the word "taste.")
I can find no explanation for the etymology of prophētēs. It seems to begin with the prefix pro-, which in Greek means "before." But the only reference I can find suggests that that is misleading.
Here is a quote from The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: The prefix pro- causes some ambiguity regarding the precise sense of Prophētēs, but it would seem that the original sense in Greek is "one who proclaims," although soon the idea "one who predicts" also occurs.
The Dictionary of Bible and Religion (published by Abingdon) says this: Prophet/Prophecy. The word means "one who speaks for [another]." In the Judeo-Christian tradition the "another" is assumed to be God, so that the prophet is regarded as God’s spokesperson, mouthpiece, messenger. The origin of the term in Western language is somewhat more complicated. The Greek prophētēs was actually an "interpreter" of what some would consider to be the real prophet, that is, the one who claimed to be in actual contact with some deity or other source of esoteric knowledge, whose revelations had to be interpreted or translated for general understanding. The real prophet in the Greek sense was the mantis, one who in a trance or some extraordinary spiritual seizure (compare the word mania), like the Pythonic prophetess of Delphi, delivered utterances in ecstatic frenzy that were then "interpreted" (and put into suitably ambiguous "oracular" responses) for the benefit of the paying devotees.
Finally, Harper’s Bible Dictionary offers this definition: Prophet - a person who serves as a channel of communication between the human and divine worlds.
I know, I know... more than you wanted to know. Well SOMEONE asked!
Megn1
Megn!: You have created an absolutely excellent methodological apparatus here. I do not think you need apologize for doing first rate research -- spelling out for us the basic difference between "prophesy" and "prophecy" is alone worth the full price of admission. THANKS!!!
Your careful, painstaking, scholarly efforts in assembling this methodology for your study, and creating a set of useable working definitions will pay off handsomely down the line. Once the LotR classes have finished, you should have, ready-to-hand an almost finished, professionally organized paper.
1. statement of methodology - parameters of the study
2. important definitions
3. the data base of "prophetic" instances gathered from the source books of JRRT
Then you just string this data together with a connective narrative, come up with some "questions" that it may be milked to answer, state a few conclusions -- add a bibliography and -- Bingo, a quality paper ready for publication at some level or another!
My deep appreciation for your efforts here!
Karo6
I've gotten behind in my reading, so my list of prophecies is falling behind. Everyone should feel free to add any that they find.
Not surprisingly, the first appearance of elves in FOTR brings with it a clump of prophecies.
The words of Gildor, spoken to Frodo, at the end of chap 3:
"I already know a little, and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions. You are leaving the Shire, and yet you doubt that you will find what you seek, or accomplish what you intend, or that you will ever return."
This is not a prediction, but seems to be a prophetic statement in that Gildor knows it without being told.
"I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you, but I perceive that he is --strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side."
Again, not a prediction, but seemingly prophetic.
(speaking of the black riders) "My heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion."
A definite prophetic prediction.
As a high elf, Gildor seems to have a kind of intuitive power that borders on the prophetic. It is his "heart" that tell him what the future holds for Frodo. It will be interesting to watch for further examples of elvish intuition. Does Legolas have this ability, or is it only high elves?
Megn1
Oh dear. I thought I knew what a prophesy was, but now I'm all confusled! These may be more foreshadowing, but I'll stick them all here so they'll take up just one post.
Book II Chap. 4: Aragorn says: "It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" And we all know what happened to Gandalf.
Book II Chap. 8: Jumping the gun here -- sorry. When Galadriel gives out the gifts, she makes...well, they seem more predictions. To Gimli, she says: "...your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion." To Frodo, to whom she gives the phial with the light of the Evening Star, she says: "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out."
This strikes me more as intuition than prophesy. In Book I Chap. 2, Gandalf tells Frodo: "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back." At the Council of Elrond, we find out what happened when Galdalf did meet with Saruman.
Diana
Excellent examples of prophesy, Diana!
Foreshadowing is something the author says to the readers, over the heads of the characters. Then the reader knows something the characters don't. I'm having a hard time coming up with an example. Anyone want to help?
Anyhow, the examples you post are internal to the story, spoken by the characters, and known to them. Therefore they are what we are trying to track here.
Thanks!
Megn1
I am FAR behind in my reading, and even farther behind in posting to this thread.
Here's some stuff from way back.
Book 1, Chapter 4 - A Shortcut to Mushrooms
Frodo and Sam are talking, after the night with the elves.
A prediction from Frodo
It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back.
A prophecy, from Sam
I don't know how to say it, but after las night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Eves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want--I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.
A little later, a prediction by Pippin
Short cuts make long delays.
Book 1 Chapter 5 A Conspiracy Unmasked
A prediction by Fatty, at the very end of the chapter
You'll wish you were back here with me before this time tomorrow.
It is worth noting that this prediction comes true. In Chapter 6 The Old Forest, when Merry and Pippin are trapped in the willow, Frodo says "Why did we ever come into this dreadful Forest? How I wish were we all back at Crickhollow!"
This shows that Tolkien was paying attention. This lines that appear to be throwaways, are actually interconnected. No wonder we love this writer!
Megn1
Megn,
Thanks for laying out clear guidlines, I tend to go off on concepts as you know.
An easy example of foreshadowing, although not a great one:
Chap. I pg. 33
"The flowers glowed red and golden: snap-dragons and sunflowers, and nasturtians trailing all over the walls and peeping in at the round windows."
-Foreshadows Gandalf's statement:
"How bright your garden looks!" said Gandalf.
Perhaps a poor example except for the fact the author has described the garden to you, you know the colors "glowed" now Gandalf seats it in your mind as an experience using "bright", the forward description forshadows the qoute, and thus cements the experience as real within our minds. Tolkien tends to use this a few times, and it works really well on me.
Perhaps a better example would be that of Sam and Ted Sandyman's debate regarding the walking tree seen by Sam's cousin Hal. I think it is interesting to note that many I mention this to have forgotten this exchange when Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard, and I often wonder why Tolkien didn't make more of it when Sam finally saw Treebeard towards the end.
Anyway two examples but this is a prophesy thread, and I agree foreshadowing is not prophesy I only mentioned it as an option, and I have hands full so I could not track it well.
Namárië,
Iarwain
Megn, the dream Frodo had of seeing Gandalf imprisoned on to of the "rock" (at the time when Gandalf was actually imprisoned on Orthanc) be an example of prophecy? He see something in a dream that is actually true although he does not know how to interpret it until Gandalf tells his story at the Council of Elrond.
MusicMom
PS Megn-- I really enjoyed your etymological studies of prophecy and prediction--both of them. Thanks for all the hard work you (and many others!) do to keep this site mentally stimulating, challanging, and entirely enjoyable
MusicMom wrote:
Megn, the dream Frodo had of seeing Gandalf imprisoned on to of the "rock" (at the time when Gandalf was actually imprisoned on Orthanc) be an example of prophecy? He see something in a dream that is actually true although he does not know how to interpret it until Gandalf tells his story at the Council of Elrond.
This dream was not prophetic because Frodo had it after Gandalf escaped. I could be wrong but I think Gandalf was either at Crickhollow or on the way when Frodo had this dream.
DA
I've really fallen behind on this thread, but I've been reading and taking notes, and it's time to add things here.
MusicMom raised the question about Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house. I would definitely classify it as prophecy, though it is not a prediction (see the distinction I made in an earlier post). Frodo dreams that he sees "a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man... Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings passed across the moon. The figure lifted up his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away." Clearly this is a dream of Gandalf escaping from Orthanc. Frodo himself makes the connection later, at Elrond's Council. As has been mentioned here, Gandalf escaped from Orthanc prior to Frodo's dream. He escaped on September 18, but the dream came to Frodo on September 26. That means the dream is not a prediction of what is to come, but a vision of what has been. Nevertheless, it is prophecy. It is knowledge that comes to Frodo from no "natural" source, and it conveys truth. It is an extremely detailed vision, and very accurate. Clearly it is a prophetic dream, revealing to Frodo what has already happened but is still unknown to him.
While we're on the subject, what of the other dreams in Bombadil's house? Pippin and Merry dream of Old Man Willow, and water respectively. Neither of these are prophetic, or predictions. They are simply reliving experiences of the day.
***********SPOILER ALERT ***********
if you haven't read all of LOTR, don't read the next comment
On their second night in Bombadil's house, Frodo has another dream. "Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swif sunrise." This dream is referred to at the very end of the trilogy, as Frodo approaches Elvenhome. Though it is not recognizable as prophecy when we first encounter this dream, it is definitely prophetic, and also a prediction.
In Chapter 8, Fog on the Barrow-Downs, we find this prophetic vision:
After Tom has released the hobbits from the barrow, he tells them soemthing of the history of the Men of Westernesse in the area.
''Few now remember them,' Tom murmered, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'
The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow. Then the vision faded, and they were back in the sunlit world."
The vision the hobbits have is propetic, with an element of prediction. No indication is given of the source of the vision, nor how it is that they all saw it. We also don't know what they thought of it. It's just there, for us to ignore on our first reading, and delight in when we encounter it again.
Of course, Chapter two of Book two (The Council of Elrond) is full of prophecy! Taken in the order they appear:
Elrond says "That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distand lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world." Elrond is very wise, and this statement may be a natural expression of that wisdom, but it seems to me to be inspired, and therefore prophetic (though not a prediction).
Faramir and Boromir's dream is the most obvious prophecy in the whole trilogy:
"Seek for the Sword that was broken: In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken, And the Halfling forth shall stand."
When Frodo offers Aragorn the Ring, he replies "It does not belong to either of us, but it has been ordained that you should hold it for a while." Many of the Wise come to this conclusion. Does Aragorn speak out of his experience, or is this prophecy.
Aragorn says of the Sword of Elendil (the Sword that was broken), "It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found." Clearly a prophetic prediction.
Then there is Bilbo's poem:
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king.
Bilbo tells Frodo that he made it up, when Aragorn first told him about himself. It is clearly a prediction, but is it prophecy, or wishful thinking? The fact that it comes true doesn't necessarily mean it was inspired prophecy. I'd be interested in opinions on this.
***********SPOILER ALERT******************
When Aragorn is told that Smeagol had escaped, he says "Escaped? That is ill news indeed. We shall all rue it bitterly, I fear." An interesting (non-prhophetic) prediction. We rue it for a time, but in the end, we definitely do not. Aragorn's fears prove false.
On the other hand, Gandalf says of Gollum, "He must do what he will. But he may play a part yet that neither he nor Sauron have foreseen." Gandalf's prediction is correct. But does it come from his wisdom, or some other inspiration. I guess a combination of the two.
I expected the Council to have a lot of prophecy. I did not expect all that I found in the next chapter "The Ring Goes South."
As the Fellowship are preparing to leave Rivendell, Elrond says, "You will meet many foes, some open, and some disguised; and you may find friends upon your way when you least look for it." I'm guessing this is a prediction, based on Elrond's experience of the world, rather than an inspired prophecy.
*************SPOILER ALERT***********
When Boromir blows his horn before leaving Rivendell, Elrond says, "Slow should you be to wind that horn again, Boromir, until you stand once more on the borders of your land, and dire need is on you." I'm stumped on this one. It's not intended by Elrond to be a prdiction. But given what happens to Boromir, it seems to be prophetic. Or is this a case of foreshadowing?
Later Elrond says that only on Frodo is any charge laid. "The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go futher than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your heats, and you cannot foresee what each may meet on the road." This feels like a prediction.
When the Fellowship first enters Hollin, Legolas says of the elves who used to live there "I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago." Surely Legolas knows the story of the elves, and what happened to them, and he came by that information naturally. But he speaks of an awareness that seems inspired. So is this prophetic speech?
Catching up...
From FOTR book 2 chap 4, "A Journey in the Dark."
During the conversation debating whether to enter Moria, Boromir proposes going around the mountains by going south to the Gap of Rohan. Gandalf replies "Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over." Feels like a prediction, rather than a prophecy.
Later, Aragorn says to Gandalf, "And I say to you, if you pass the doors of Moria, beware." Elsewhere others have discussed how Aragorn knew that of all the company Gandalf faced the greatest threat in Moria. One guess is that Elrond had warned against this path. Whatever the source, it feels like it comes from more than just experience and observation, so it is probably prophetic.
I meant to note that the discussion about Aragorn's foreknowlege of Gandalf's peril is in the thread called BookII Chap5: The Bridge of Khazad-dum
One more prediction, found in "A Journey in the Dark."
Sam says to Pippin, as they hear the wargs howl, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't a wolf's belly." Sam's down-to-earth wisdom is right, again!
I've read some chapters carefully, and others have caught me up into the story. I didn't notice another prophecy until chapter 7, "The Mirror of Galadriel." That doesn't mean there are no prophecies there, and if anyone finds any, please report them!
About nine pages into "The Mirror of Galadriel," Sam says to Frodo "It's when we leave this land that we shall miss Gandalf worse, I'm thinking." Frodo agrees with Sam's prediction.
Later, when Frodo asks Galadriel if he should look in her mirror, she refuses to advise him. But she does say "Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here." Is this statement inspired, or the result of "intuition?" Or is it the product of her careful observation of Frodo. I think the latter, making it a prediction, and one that seems just barely to be true.
When Frodo offers Galadriel the ring, she predicts what would happen if she claimed it:
"In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"
Then, a moment later, she predicts "I will diminsh, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."
In FOTR, book 2, chapter 8, I find the following predictions/prophecies.
Galadriel, saying good-night to the Fellowship on their last night in Lorien:
"Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them." That sounds like an excellent description of what happens in TTT.
Three paragraphs later, we get from Aragorn this reflection on Boromir/Faramir's dream:
"His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery." He is, of course, correct in his interpretation of the dream. But he does not yet see how it will come about.
Near the end of the chapter we have an example of foreshadowing, which I am not tracking in this thread, but which serves to illustrate what I mean by that term. We're told "Suddenly the River swept round a bend, and the banks rose upon either side, and the light of Lorien was hidden. Never did Frodo see that fair land again." None of the characters in the story know or guess this truth. It is spoken by the author to the reader, outside of the story.
FOTR book II, chapter 9, "The Great River"
When Sam raises the question about the moon, Legolas says, "The passing season are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last." This prediction is based on the long life, and the long sorrow, of the elf kindred. It is a truth only the young can ignore.
As he debates (yet again) with Boromir the path that the Fellowship should take, Aragorn says, speaking of Amon Hen, "I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us." These words do come true, but not in the way Aragorn intends them.
Boromir replies, and his answer contains these words, "You will need my strenght, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no futher. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship." In the light of events to come, these words are eerily prophetic. Again, they are true, but not in the way the speaker intended.
Megn1
FOTR, Book II, Chapter 8. "Farewell to Lorien"
Celeborn replies to Boromir: "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."
Aragorn is sitting there listening. Soon, he will soon receive the Elessar.
But, it will be some time yet before he encounters an old wife who may tell the wise what they need to know...again and again and again....
Redha
Excellent, Redha!
Megn1
DA
Major discovery number one:
I could find no prophesies in Chapter two of FOTR. Help me out anyone, if you see any. I was very surprised. If you had asked me where you should start looking for prophesies, I'd have said Chapter two. Guess I don't know this book as well as I thought. Gandalf tells the story of the ring to Frodo, but it is very different from the way that it is told in Chapter two of book II. There we get the propesies (I think...).
I haven't found any prophesies yet, but these two quotes from chapter one are slightly relevant to this thread. I would call them "intuitive predictions," rather than prophesies. Both will prove to be correct.
"There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth. 'It will have to be paid for,' they said. 'It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it.'"
- from the opening description of Bilbo, second paragraph of Chapter 1, FOTR
"'Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you, I says to him.'"
- Gaffer Gamgee, reporting a conversation he had with Sam, as Sam has had great interest in Bilbo's stories. Fourth page of Chapter 1, FOTR
Megn1
DaleAnn, and Megn,
First off let me state how in awe I am of the efforts put forth to this study. Incredible, and down right compelling, I keep trying to finish other things but am drawn to your boards as if my will was not my own.
Not wishing to disrupt the continuity of the boards I'm loath to offer this, but then again it might be a solution to your boogle.
Perhaps you might include forshadowing within the prophesy tracking such as what Megn has already gathered here. I mean technically foreshadowing is an authors tool, that in some cases can be argued as being narrative prophesy.
I think when looking at it in this light you might be able to pick and choose from many delightful qoutes.
Just a suggestion, from someone who should be working on other things.
Namárië,
Iarwain
Though I hate to give her credit for it, another possible "intuitive prediction" comes from Lobelia SB, a page or 2 from the end of BookI Chap1: To Frodo "You'll live to regret it young fellow. Why didn't you go too? You don't belong here;..." Of course, her reasoning is because he's a more of a Brandybuck, than a Baggins...But, it does come true "You don't belong here."
And even the "live to regret it" part of the prediction comes true. While on the journey Frodo has regrets every time he wishes he was somewhere else or in some different time. In the end though (I'm a bit foggy), I don't believe he has any regrets.
Megn and Iarwain: Megn1 has full authority on this thread. I don't have a say in it. But, my dear overworked friend, Iarwain, if Megn does not wish to expand her topic...we could always make a new thread...Goodness knows I've had lots of practice....
DA
'Elves and Dragons! I says to him. Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you, I says to him.'"
Just thought to throw this in....About half way into the chapter Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit of TTT, Sam wishes he had potatoes. By this time he's seen Elves (no Dragons) and plenty of dangerous things. Now, he's missing the "cabbages and potatoes" of life...
DA
Megn1: Any chance of coming up with a formalized statement of the parameters you would like to use for determining when a "predictive" statement can be seen as phrophetic? Are failed prophesies still prophesy? I agree that narrative forshadowings by the author are not "phrophecies," and the category of "intuitive predictions," as you aptly call them, seems lacking in real prophetic stature as well. So, what IS a prophesy?
Are there any sources out there, religious manuals, dictionaries, philosophical treatises, folklore compendia, or such, that allow you to generate a more or less strict, and precise definition -- something that we could all use in testing the "prophetic" nature of the many suspect statements we will undoubtedly run across in our readings of LotR?
Karo6
Just a short post to say that I'll research this question. A definition of prophesy will follow soon.
This thread is for prophesies or predictions KNOWN TO THE CHARACTERS in the story. That is different from foreshadowing, which is something the author offers to the reader, behind the back of the characters, who are left in the dark.
As DA says, anyone who wants to track foreshadowing is welcome to ask her for their own thread.
Megn1
The term prophesy does imply Divine Inspiration. It would almost certainly have to mean that the information came from Illuvatar or the Ainur. We could surmise that Bombadil and the Istar count for this. Much, though not all, of what is yet to be was revealed to the Ainur.
Also, prophesy is not always specific. I think this line is prophetic:
"My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least."
-Gandalf, The Shadow of The Past, The discussion of Gollum
and also
"Great perils lie before me." -Gandalf, The Shadow of The Past, when Frodo offers him the ring
Illadria
The question has been raised as to the difference between a prediction and a prophecy, and the precised definition of a prophecy. Following are two posts.
The first is the simple answer to those questions, and a working definition that we will use on this thread. Some will be satisfied with that.
The second post is a detailed study of the etymology of the words "prediction" and "prophecy," and some rambling thoughts on the nature of prophecy. Some will find this tedious.
Read the first post, and do what you will with the second.
Megn1
Prediction: To make a prediction is to declare in advance what will occur.
Prophecy: A prophecy is an inspired utterance. It may be about future events, or about the present reality. It's source is usually something other than observation, experience, or scientific reasoning. The "inspiration" might be intuition, a dream, a "hunch," or divine revelation.
Some prophecies are predictions, but not all, and not all predictions are prophecies.
Predictions that are prophecies: A prophecy which speaks of the future is a prediction. An example is the dream that Faramir and Boromir have which tells them that if they find Imladris "There shall be counsels taken stronger than Morgul-spells." It's source is inspired, and it tells of something that will happen.
Predictions that are not prophecies: A prediction based on experience is not a prophecy. An example is the statement by the hobbits that Bilbo's perpetual youth and inexhaustible wealth "will have to be paid for. It isn't natural, and trouble will come from it."
Prophecies that are not predictions: A prophecy which speaks an inspired truth about the present reality is not a prediction. An example is the first half of Bilbo's poem "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost." Also, Lobelia's statement about Frodo -- that he is not a Baggins, but a Brandybuck, and doesn't belong in Hobbiton -- might also fit in this category (if you consider her "inspired" at that moment).
In everyday language the two words have become largely synonymous, and the distinction will be blurry for many of the prophetic predictions that we uncover in FOTR. But we can use these working definitions to sharpen our conversation here.
This thread is a place to record all predictions, and all prophecies (whether predictive or not) that you uncover in your reading. (But no foreshadowing, as described above.)
Some more detailed information:
First, an apology. I have been misspelling the word "prophecy." I blame my spell checker, because I checked the word when this thread was first starting. But it wasn't until I consulted a dictionary that I realized my mistake.
Prophesy is a verb, which means to speak or write as a prophet.
Prophecy is a noun, which means the work or revelation of an inspired prophet.
Now we all know...
Some etymology:
Predict comes from Latin praedictus, which is from. prae- (meaning "pre-") and dicere (meaning "to say"). Literally it means "to say before."
Prophecy, and the related word Prophet, trace their roots back to the Greek word prophētēs. (The ē represents the Greek letter eta, and is pronounced "ay," so this word is said pro fay tays, with the final syllable sounding like the "tas" in the word "taste.")
I can find no explanation for the etymology of prophētēs. It seems to begin with the prefix pro-, which in Greek means "before." But the only reference I can find suggests that that is misleading.
Here is a quote from The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: The prefix pro- causes some ambiguity regarding the precise sense of Prophētēs, but it would seem that the original sense in Greek is "one who proclaims," although soon the idea "one who predicts" also occurs.
The Dictionary of Bible and Religion (published by Abingdon) says this: Prophet/Prophecy. The word means "one who speaks for [another]." In the Judeo-Christian tradition the "another" is assumed to be God, so that the prophet is regarded as God’s spokesperson, mouthpiece, messenger. The origin of the term in Western language is somewhat more complicated. The Greek prophētēs was actually an "interpreter" of what some would consider to be the real prophet, that is, the one who claimed to be in actual contact with some deity or other source of esoteric knowledge, whose revelations had to be interpreted or translated for general understanding. The real prophet in the Greek sense was the mantis, one who in a trance or some extraordinary spiritual seizure (compare the word mania), like the Pythonic prophetess of Delphi, delivered utterances in ecstatic frenzy that were then "interpreted" (and put into suitably ambiguous "oracular" responses) for the benefit of the paying devotees.
Finally, Harper’s Bible Dictionary offers this definition: Prophet - a person who serves as a channel of communication between the human and divine worlds.
I know, I know... more than you wanted to know. Well SOMEONE asked!
Megn1
Megn!: You have created an absolutely excellent methodological apparatus here. I do not think you need apologize for doing first rate research -- spelling out for us the basic difference between "prophesy" and "prophecy" is alone worth the full price of admission. THANKS!!!
Your careful, painstaking, scholarly efforts in assembling this methodology for your study, and creating a set of useable working definitions will pay off handsomely down the line. Once the LotR classes have finished, you should have, ready-to-hand an almost finished, professionally organized paper.
1. statement of methodology - parameters of the study
2. important definitions
3. the data base of "prophetic" instances gathered from the source books of JRRT
Then you just string this data together with a connective narrative, come up with some "questions" that it may be milked to answer, state a few conclusions -- add a bibliography and -- Bingo, a quality paper ready for publication at some level or another!
My deep appreciation for your efforts here!
Karo6
I've gotten behind in my reading, so my list of prophecies is falling behind. Everyone should feel free to add any that they find.
Not surprisingly, the first appearance of elves in FOTR brings with it a clump of prophecies.
The words of Gildor, spoken to Frodo, at the end of chap 3:
"I already know a little, and I can read more in your face and in the thought behind your questions. You are leaving the Shire, and yet you doubt that you will find what you seek, or accomplish what you intend, or that you will ever return."
This is not a prediction, but seems to be a prophetic statement in that Gildor knows it without being told.
"I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you, but I perceive that he is --strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side."
Again, not a prediction, but seemingly prophetic.
(speaking of the black riders) "My heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion."
A definite prophetic prediction.
As a high elf, Gildor seems to have a kind of intuitive power that borders on the prophetic. It is his "heart" that tell him what the future holds for Frodo. It will be interesting to watch for further examples of elvish intuition. Does Legolas have this ability, or is it only high elves?
Megn1
Oh dear. I thought I knew what a prophesy was, but now I'm all confusled! These may be more foreshadowing, but I'll stick them all here so they'll take up just one post.
Book II Chap. 4: Aragorn says: "It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" And we all know what happened to Gandalf.
Book II Chap. 8: Jumping the gun here -- sorry. When Galadriel gives out the gifts, she makes...well, they seem more predictions. To Gimli, she says: "...your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion." To Frodo, to whom she gives the phial with the light of the Evening Star, she says: "May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out."
This strikes me more as intuition than prophesy. In Book I Chap. 2, Gandalf tells Frodo: "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back." At the Council of Elrond, we find out what happened when Galdalf did meet with Saruman.
Diana
Excellent examples of prophesy, Diana!
Foreshadowing is something the author says to the readers, over the heads of the characters. Then the reader knows something the characters don't. I'm having a hard time coming up with an example. Anyone want to help?
Anyhow, the examples you post are internal to the story, spoken by the characters, and known to them. Therefore they are what we are trying to track here.
Thanks!
Megn1
I am FAR behind in my reading, and even farther behind in posting to this thread.
Here's some stuff from way back.
Book 1, Chapter 4 - A Shortcut to Mushrooms
Frodo and Sam are talking, after the night with the elves.
A prediction from Frodo
It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back.
A prophecy, from Sam
I don't know how to say it, but after las night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Eves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want--I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.
A little later, a prediction by Pippin
Short cuts make long delays.
Book 1 Chapter 5 A Conspiracy Unmasked
A prediction by Fatty, at the very end of the chapter
You'll wish you were back here with me before this time tomorrow.
It is worth noting that this prediction comes true. In Chapter 6 The Old Forest, when Merry and Pippin are trapped in the willow, Frodo says "Why did we ever come into this dreadful Forest? How I wish were we all back at Crickhollow!"
This shows that Tolkien was paying attention. This lines that appear to be throwaways, are actually interconnected. No wonder we love this writer!
Megn1
Megn,
Thanks for laying out clear guidlines, I tend to go off on concepts as you know.
An easy example of foreshadowing, although not a great one:
Chap. I pg. 33
"The flowers glowed red and golden: snap-dragons and sunflowers, and nasturtians trailing all over the walls and peeping in at the round windows."
-Foreshadows Gandalf's statement:
"How bright your garden looks!" said Gandalf.
Perhaps a poor example except for the fact the author has described the garden to you, you know the colors "glowed" now Gandalf seats it in your mind as an experience using "bright", the forward description forshadows the qoute, and thus cements the experience as real within our minds. Tolkien tends to use this a few times, and it works really well on me.
Perhaps a better example would be that of Sam and Ted Sandyman's debate regarding the walking tree seen by Sam's cousin Hal. I think it is interesting to note that many I mention this to have forgotten this exchange when Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard, and I often wonder why Tolkien didn't make more of it when Sam finally saw Treebeard towards the end.
Anyway two examples but this is a prophesy thread, and I agree foreshadowing is not prophesy I only mentioned it as an option, and I have hands full so I could not track it well.
Namárië,
Iarwain
Megn, the dream Frodo had of seeing Gandalf imprisoned on to of the "rock" (at the time when Gandalf was actually imprisoned on Orthanc) be an example of prophecy? He see something in a dream that is actually true although he does not know how to interpret it until Gandalf tells his story at the Council of Elrond.
MusicMom
PS Megn-- I really enjoyed your etymological studies of prophecy and prediction--both of them. Thanks for all the hard work you (and many others!) do to keep this site mentally stimulating, challanging, and entirely enjoyable
MusicMom wrote:
Megn, the dream Frodo had of seeing Gandalf imprisoned on to of the "rock" (at the time when Gandalf was actually imprisoned on Orthanc) be an example of prophecy? He see something in a dream that is actually true although he does not know how to interpret it until Gandalf tells his story at the Council of Elrond.
This dream was not prophetic because Frodo had it after Gandalf escaped. I could be wrong but I think Gandalf was either at Crickhollow or on the way when Frodo had this dream.
DA
I've really fallen behind on this thread, but I've been reading and taking notes, and it's time to add things here.
MusicMom raised the question about Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house. I would definitely classify it as prophecy, though it is not a prediction (see the distinction I made in an earlier post). Frodo dreams that he sees "a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man... Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings passed across the moon. The figure lifted up his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away." Clearly this is a dream of Gandalf escaping from Orthanc. Frodo himself makes the connection later, at Elrond's Council. As has been mentioned here, Gandalf escaped from Orthanc prior to Frodo's dream. He escaped on September 18, but the dream came to Frodo on September 26. That means the dream is not a prediction of what is to come, but a vision of what has been. Nevertheless, it is prophecy. It is knowledge that comes to Frodo from no "natural" source, and it conveys truth. It is an extremely detailed vision, and very accurate. Clearly it is a prophetic dream, revealing to Frodo what has already happened but is still unknown to him.
While we're on the subject, what of the other dreams in Bombadil's house? Pippin and Merry dream of Old Man Willow, and water respectively. Neither of these are prophetic, or predictions. They are simply reliving experiences of the day.
***********SPOILER ALERT ***********
if you haven't read all of LOTR, don't read the next comment
On their second night in Bombadil's house, Frodo has another dream. "Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swif sunrise." This dream is referred to at the very end of the trilogy, as Frodo approaches Elvenhome. Though it is not recognizable as prophecy when we first encounter this dream, it is definitely prophetic, and also a prediction.
In Chapter 8, Fog on the Barrow-Downs, we find this prophetic vision:
After Tom has released the hobbits from the barrow, he tells them soemthing of the history of the Men of Westernesse in the area.
''Few now remember them,' Tom murmered, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'
The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow. Then the vision faded, and they were back in the sunlit world."
The vision the hobbits have is propetic, with an element of prediction. No indication is given of the source of the vision, nor how it is that they all saw it. We also don't know what they thought of it. It's just there, for us to ignore on our first reading, and delight in when we encounter it again.
Of course, Chapter two of Book two (The Council of Elrond) is full of prophecy! Taken in the order they appear:
Elrond says "That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distand lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world." Elrond is very wise, and this statement may be a natural expression of that wisdom, but it seems to me to be inspired, and therefore prophetic (though not a prediction).
Faramir and Boromir's dream is the most obvious prophecy in the whole trilogy:
"Seek for the Sword that was broken: In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken, And the Halfling forth shall stand."
When Frodo offers Aragorn the Ring, he replies "It does not belong to either of us, but it has been ordained that you should hold it for a while." Many of the Wise come to this conclusion. Does Aragorn speak out of his experience, or is this prophecy.
Aragorn says of the Sword of Elendil (the Sword that was broken), "It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found." Clearly a prophetic prediction.
Then there is Bilbo's poem:
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
From ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king.
Bilbo tells Frodo that he made it up, when Aragorn first told him about himself. It is clearly a prediction, but is it prophecy, or wishful thinking? The fact that it comes true doesn't necessarily mean it was inspired prophecy. I'd be interested in opinions on this.
***********SPOILER ALERT******************
When Aragorn is told that Smeagol had escaped, he says "Escaped? That is ill news indeed. We shall all rue it bitterly, I fear." An interesting (non-prhophetic) prediction. We rue it for a time, but in the end, we definitely do not. Aragorn's fears prove false.
On the other hand, Gandalf says of Gollum, "He must do what he will. But he may play a part yet that neither he nor Sauron have foreseen." Gandalf's prediction is correct. But does it come from his wisdom, or some other inspiration. I guess a combination of the two.
I expected the Council to have a lot of prophecy. I did not expect all that I found in the next chapter "The Ring Goes South."
As the Fellowship are preparing to leave Rivendell, Elrond says, "You will meet many foes, some open, and some disguised; and you may find friends upon your way when you least look for it." I'm guessing this is a prediction, based on Elrond's experience of the world, rather than an inspired prophecy.
*************SPOILER ALERT***********
When Boromir blows his horn before leaving Rivendell, Elrond says, "Slow should you be to wind that horn again, Boromir, until you stand once more on the borders of your land, and dire need is on you." I'm stumped on this one. It's not intended by Elrond to be a prdiction. But given what happens to Boromir, it seems to be prophetic. Or is this a case of foreshadowing?
Later Elrond says that only on Frodo is any charge laid. "The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy it will be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go futher than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your heats, and you cannot foresee what each may meet on the road." This feels like a prediction.
When the Fellowship first enters Hollin, Legolas says of the elves who used to live there "I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago." Surely Legolas knows the story of the elves, and what happened to them, and he came by that information naturally. But he speaks of an awareness that seems inspired. So is this prophetic speech?
Catching up...
From FOTR book 2 chap 4, "A Journey in the Dark."
During the conversation debating whether to enter Moria, Boromir proposes going around the mountains by going south to the Gap of Rohan. Gandalf replies "Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over." Feels like a prediction, rather than a prophecy.
Later, Aragorn says to Gandalf, "And I say to you, if you pass the doors of Moria, beware." Elsewhere others have discussed how Aragorn knew that of all the company Gandalf faced the greatest threat in Moria. One guess is that Elrond had warned against this path. Whatever the source, it feels like it comes from more than just experience and observation, so it is probably prophetic.
I meant to note that the discussion about Aragorn's foreknowlege of Gandalf's peril is in the thread called BookII Chap5: The Bridge of Khazad-dum
One more prediction, found in "A Journey in the Dark."
Sam says to Pippin, as they hear the wargs howl, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't a wolf's belly." Sam's down-to-earth wisdom is right, again!
I've read some chapters carefully, and others have caught me up into the story. I didn't notice another prophecy until chapter 7, "The Mirror of Galadriel." That doesn't mean there are no prophecies there, and if anyone finds any, please report them!
About nine pages into "The Mirror of Galadriel," Sam says to Frodo "It's when we leave this land that we shall miss Gandalf worse, I'm thinking." Frodo agrees with Sam's prediction.
Later, when Frodo asks Galadriel if he should look in her mirror, she refuses to advise him. But she does say "Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here." Is this statement inspired, or the result of "intuition?" Or is it the product of her careful observation of Frodo. I think the latter, making it a prediction, and one that seems just barely to be true.
When Frodo offers Galadriel the ring, she predicts what would happen if she claimed it:
"In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"
Then, a moment later, she predicts "I will diminsh, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."
In FOTR, book 2, chapter 8, I find the following predictions/prophecies.
Galadriel, saying good-night to the Fellowship on their last night in Lorien:
"Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them." That sounds like an excellent description of what happens in TTT.
Three paragraphs later, we get from Aragorn this reflection on Boromir/Faramir's dream:
"His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery." He is, of course, correct in his interpretation of the dream. But he does not yet see how it will come about.
Near the end of the chapter we have an example of foreshadowing, which I am not tracking in this thread, but which serves to illustrate what I mean by that term. We're told "Suddenly the River swept round a bend, and the banks rose upon either side, and the light of Lorien was hidden. Never did Frodo see that fair land again." None of the characters in the story know or guess this truth. It is spoken by the author to the reader, outside of the story.
FOTR book II, chapter 9, "The Great River"
When Sam raises the question about the moon, Legolas says, "The passing season are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last." This prediction is based on the long life, and the long sorrow, of the elf kindred. It is a truth only the young can ignore.
As he debates (yet again) with Boromir the path that the Fellowship should take, Aragorn says, speaking of Amon Hen, "I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us." These words do come true, but not in the way Aragorn intends them.
Boromir replies, and his answer contains these words, "You will need my strenght, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no futher. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship." In the light of events to come, these words are eerily prophetic. Again, they are true, but not in the way the speaker intended.
Megn1
FOTR, Book II, Chapter 8. "Farewell to Lorien"
Celeborn replies to Boromir: "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."
Aragorn is sitting there listening. Soon, he will soon receive the Elessar.
But, it will be some time yet before he encounters an old wife who may tell the wise what they need to know...again and again and again....
Redha
Excellent, Redha!
Megn1
