Post by Stormrider on Jan 20, 2009 20:34:39 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 10:23 AM
Something that really grabbed my attention in the first few chapters of Two Towers is Tolkien's Use of the "uncanny ability". Consider the distances Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli were able to cover during their pursuit of the orcs, Aragorn's ranger abilities, Legolas' "supersight", and so on. I really have no great insights on this other than the fact that I feel something different in Tolkien's character presentation here. Any thoughts or opinions?
* * *
From: jerseyshore Sent: 10/21/2002 6:32 PM
I'm afraid I found it rather humorous when Legolas said rather offhandedly, "There are one hundred and five (riders). Yellow is their hair and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall." All this at a distance of more than five leagues--a minimum of twelve miles! My reaction was "Yeah, sure!" Somehow I felt this made Legolas less real as a character. And yet the great distance covered by the three didn't bother me nearly as much. Strange how we can accept some super talents and not others!
* * *
From: megn1 Sent: 10/21/2002 6:38 PM
Jerseyshore,
For me that moment simply makes Legolas less human, not less real. He is a real elf, and we aren't allowed to forget it
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 10/22/2002 7:14 AM
It made me realize that Elves are far superior to the humans in Middle Earth. All of their senses are keener than those of man. Besides having keener senses, they are always healthy and live long lives. How wonderful to be an Elf!
However, the distances they travelled in so short of time did bother me a bit. I can see Legolas having no problems with it. Aragorn, as a Ranger and of Númenorian decent, I can see being able to accomplish the distance. But Gimli with his stocky build and short legs really caused me to wonder how he kept up! He must have really had a work out!
Stormrider
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 10/22/2002 10:15 AM
Along the lines of that hard journey they took: has anyone tried to figure out sort of their miles per hour? Estimating both the time they were actually travelling & how far they went. I'd be interested.
Thanks,
Questyn
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/22/2002 7:27 PM
I think the "superhero" factor is very important. It sets the characters apart from us in some ways, real heroes with abilities far beyond average, partially justifying their presence in a an epic struggle, those of whom tales will long be told. It is an important counterpart to the role of the small folk in combatting the great evil facing the free peoples of Middle Earth.
Cathy
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/22/2002 11:45 PM
I see this reference to the special powers one which relates to our own abilities to "rise to the occassion" when needed. I think Tolkien was playing around with the idea that there are parts of ourselves which ARE indeed more wonderful than we know and that we do have abilities which defy the human experience, overcoming trauma, defying the odds, achieving the unachievable etc...I think with the Elves he was describing the most beautiful aspects of the human condition (according to him) and I know I found myself wanting more of those references to Legolas' sight and endurance skills etc....Sometimes my heart says, "Oh yes, tell us about how beautiful we are, how astonishing, how eternal we are and how when the chips are down we can DO what is necessary....When legolas says as Jerseyshore has pointed out (and I admit it does bring a smile to the face!) ", "There are one hundred and five (riders). Yellow is their hair and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall." it begs the question for me " Can I, if I am very still and quiet within and use all my powers of observation name the thing that needs to be named or seen or known in my heart......"
Tolkien, for me, (especially in his portrayal of the elves) inspires longing to "see far", be "centred", patient, unflustered, and eternal in our thinking.....so in this way I agree with Megn that Legolas becomes more real, but for me more real in the sense of reminding us of what might lie within if we could only grasp it....or who we can possibly be underneath the heaviness of our humanity....perhaps our very humanity actually is a device that highlights our eternal nature, (and because we are human we long for that eternal nature even more).......just as the shadow and doubt highlights the goodness, beauty and victory we all celebrate in Tolkien's work.
Ilúviël...
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:57 PM
Sometimes, in times of great need, people can do amazing things... Maybe they got an adrenaline rush, because they were so worried for the health of their companions.
About Legolas's keen sight and hearing, I think that megn1 and Stormrider are right. In the Silmarillion it also becomes clear that Elves are in a way superior to Men.
And about Gimli: well, Dwarves are known to be hard workers, and I do think that that could be a reason for a very good condition, the Dwarves' perseverance as it is called in the book.
Of course, the three of them had lembas to eat, wich gave them new strength when they were tired. And besides of all this: we normal people just adore superheroes I think. We admire (and maybe even envy them) because they are perfect and we are not.
Namárië
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/23/2002 5:06 PM
I agree that in times of need, people may rise to the occasion. I think rather than Legolas and the Elves, (or the three hunters in the search for Merry and Pippin) the better example is the hobbits.
Legolas is son of a king, so is Aragorn, and I believe Gimli was at least cousin to one (Balin, right?) They seem set apart right away. While they all develop as individuals as the story progresses, some innate abilities just aren't shared by average folk. Good posts all.
Cathy
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/23/2002 7:25 PM
Along the lines of that hard journey they took: has anyone tried to figure out sort of their miles per hour? Estimating both the time they were actually travelling & how far they went. I'd be interested
They covered 135 miles in 4 days, according to Strachey's "Journeys of Frodo." That's 33.75 miles per day. But we don't know how many hours they walked each day. Didn't they travel by night at times?
Diana
* * *
From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 10/25/2002 12:23 PM
Jerseyshore, I was amused by Legolas' answer too, although not quite like you were (it did not make him less real for me). But what followed I thought was equally amusing:
Aragorn smiled. "Keen are the eyes of the Elves," he said.
"Nay! The riders are little more than five leagues distant," said Legolas.
Love that Elf!
Pearl
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 10/28/2002 1:50 AM
Thanks for the figure on that one, Diana.
That journey -- hate to say this -- sounds like it isn't too much faster or harder than the trip they'd already been taking. It gives them perhaps 2 miles per hour, if they travelled 18 hours per day. It says they rested a little bit at night at least 2 of the nights.
Since much of the land they covered was forest and/or rocky & hilly, that's a pretty good speed; but the endurance of the elf, man, & dwarf seem the more amazing than their speed.
Something that really grabbed my attention in the first few chapters of Two Towers is Tolkien's Use of the "uncanny ability". Consider the distances Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli were able to cover during their pursuit of the orcs, Aragorn's ranger abilities, Legolas' "supersight", and so on. I really have no great insights on this other than the fact that I feel something different in Tolkien's character presentation here. Any thoughts or opinions?
* * *
From: jerseyshore Sent: 10/21/2002 6:32 PM
I'm afraid I found it rather humorous when Legolas said rather offhandedly, "There are one hundred and five (riders). Yellow is their hair and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall." All this at a distance of more than five leagues--a minimum of twelve miles! My reaction was "Yeah, sure!" Somehow I felt this made Legolas less real as a character. And yet the great distance covered by the three didn't bother me nearly as much. Strange how we can accept some super talents and not others!
* * *
From: megn1 Sent: 10/21/2002 6:38 PM
Jerseyshore,
For me that moment simply makes Legolas less human, not less real. He is a real elf, and we aren't allowed to forget it
* * *
From: Stormrider Sent: 10/22/2002 7:14 AM
It made me realize that Elves are far superior to the humans in Middle Earth. All of their senses are keener than those of man. Besides having keener senses, they are always healthy and live long lives. How wonderful to be an Elf!
However, the distances they travelled in so short of time did bother me a bit. I can see Legolas having no problems with it. Aragorn, as a Ranger and of Númenorian decent, I can see being able to accomplish the distance. But Gimli with his stocky build and short legs really caused me to wonder how he kept up! He must have really had a work out!
Stormrider
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 10/22/2002 10:15 AM
Along the lines of that hard journey they took: has anyone tried to figure out sort of their miles per hour? Estimating both the time they were actually travelling & how far they went. I'd be interested.
Thanks,
Questyn
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/22/2002 7:27 PM
I think the "superhero" factor is very important. It sets the characters apart from us in some ways, real heroes with abilities far beyond average, partially justifying their presence in a an epic struggle, those of whom tales will long be told. It is an important counterpart to the role of the small folk in combatting the great evil facing the free peoples of Middle Earth.
Cathy
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/22/2002 11:45 PM
I see this reference to the special powers one which relates to our own abilities to "rise to the occassion" when needed. I think Tolkien was playing around with the idea that there are parts of ourselves which ARE indeed more wonderful than we know and that we do have abilities which defy the human experience, overcoming trauma, defying the odds, achieving the unachievable etc...I think with the Elves he was describing the most beautiful aspects of the human condition (according to him) and I know I found myself wanting more of those references to Legolas' sight and endurance skills etc....Sometimes my heart says, "Oh yes, tell us about how beautiful we are, how astonishing, how eternal we are and how when the chips are down we can DO what is necessary....When legolas says as Jerseyshore has pointed out (and I admit it does bring a smile to the face!) ", "There are one hundred and five (riders). Yellow is their hair and bright are their spears. Their leader is very tall." it begs the question for me " Can I, if I am very still and quiet within and use all my powers of observation name the thing that needs to be named or seen or known in my heart......"
Tolkien, for me, (especially in his portrayal of the elves) inspires longing to "see far", be "centred", patient, unflustered, and eternal in our thinking.....so in this way I agree with Megn that Legolas becomes more real, but for me more real in the sense of reminding us of what might lie within if we could only grasp it....or who we can possibly be underneath the heaviness of our humanity....perhaps our very humanity actually is a device that highlights our eternal nature, (and because we are human we long for that eternal nature even more).......just as the shadow and doubt highlights the goodness, beauty and victory we all celebrate in Tolkien's work.
Ilúviël...
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:57 PM
Sometimes, in times of great need, people can do amazing things... Maybe they got an adrenaline rush, because they were so worried for the health of their companions.
About Legolas's keen sight and hearing, I think that megn1 and Stormrider are right. In the Silmarillion it also becomes clear that Elves are in a way superior to Men.
And about Gimli: well, Dwarves are known to be hard workers, and I do think that that could be a reason for a very good condition, the Dwarves' perseverance as it is called in the book.
Of course, the three of them had lembas to eat, wich gave them new strength when they were tired. And besides of all this: we normal people just adore superheroes I think. We admire (and maybe even envy them) because they are perfect and we are not.
Namárië
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/23/2002 5:06 PM
I agree that in times of need, people may rise to the occasion. I think rather than Legolas and the Elves, (or the three hunters in the search for Merry and Pippin) the better example is the hobbits.
Legolas is son of a king, so is Aragorn, and I believe Gimli was at least cousin to one (Balin, right?) They seem set apart right away. While they all develop as individuals as the story progresses, some innate abilities just aren't shared by average folk. Good posts all.
Cathy
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 10/23/2002 7:25 PM
Along the lines of that hard journey they took: has anyone tried to figure out sort of their miles per hour? Estimating both the time they were actually travelling & how far they went. I'd be interested
They covered 135 miles in 4 days, according to Strachey's "Journeys of Frodo." That's 33.75 miles per day. But we don't know how many hours they walked each day. Didn't they travel by night at times?
Diana
* * *
From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 10/25/2002 12:23 PM
Jerseyshore, I was amused by Legolas' answer too, although not quite like you were (it did not make him less real for me). But what followed I thought was equally amusing:
Aragorn smiled. "Keen are the eyes of the Elves," he said.
"Nay! The riders are little more than five leagues distant," said Legolas.
Love that Elf!
Pearl
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 10/28/2002 1:50 AM
Thanks for the figure on that one, Diana.
That journey -- hate to say this -- sounds like it isn't too much faster or harder than the trip they'd already been taking. It gives them perhaps 2 miles per hour, if they travelled 18 hours per day. It says they rested a little bit at night at least 2 of the nights.
Since much of the land they covered was forest and/or rocky & hilly, that's a pretty good speed; but the endurance of the elf, man, & dwarf seem the more amazing than their speed.