Wk 11 Appendix A (v): Elessar and Evenstar

[Stormrider]

From: Stormrider (Original Message) Sent: 6/2/2003 10:07 PM

Liv Tyler as Arwen Undómiel Evenstar	Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn Elessar

The LOTR does not delve into the relationship of Aragorn and Arwen and only lightly touches on their wedding. Please take a look at Appendix A (v) which tells us more about the development of their relationship in the years before the Quest of the Ring and a little about their final years.

This was one of the great romances in the history of Tolkien's world touched with sweetness and sadness and parallels that of Beren and Luthien.

Two important events took place which changed the course of Aragorn's life:

1. Elrond informed him of his lineage and gave him the family heirlooms-the ring of Barahir and the shards of Narsil. (He withheld the Sceptre of Annúminas until Aragorn passed the test).

2. Aragorn came upon a maiden in the woods whom he mistook for Lúthien Tinúviel. She was Arwen, Elrond's daughter, and Aragorn loved her from that moment.

Through Beren and Lúthien's love the Númenorean line sprung. Were the two events above fated to be tied together? Were actions being put into place by Eru with the purpose of strengthening this line again to carry on after the Elves sailed West to Valinor? Did the Elves sense this?

Elrond is so against their relationship developing. Does he not wish to lose his daughter to the Mortal life as he lost his brother, Elros, to it? I get the feeling that Elrond and Arwen both sensed that this may happen: Arwen says to Aragorn "maybe my doom will be not unlike Lúthien's." Elrond tells Aragorn: "There will be no choice before Arwen unless you come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world."

On the other hand, years later after Aragorn had traveled in the wilds and gone to many lands in the fight against Sauron, the Lady Galadriel admitted him to Lórien. It seems to me that she may have encouraged the union of Aragorn and Arwen because she clothed him in silver and white with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Galadriel knew Arwen was there and that she was grave and seldom laughed. When Aragorn walked toward Arwen under the trees of Caras Galadhon clothed as such, her choice was made and her doom appointed. How was this choice made? Was Galadriel match-making? Does Galadriel have a different perspective in this matter than Elrond? Why? Why not?

So they plighted their troth and were glad and Arwen told Aragorn she would cleave to him and turn from the Twilight. Then the War against Sauron was fought, Aragorn came into his inheritance and received the sceptre of Annúminas, and wed Arwen. Arwen became a mortal woman and dwelt with Aragorn in great glory and bliss.

Grievous among the sorrows of the Third Age was the parting of Elrond and Arwen, for they were sundered by the Sea and by a doom beyond the end of the world. Elrond left Middle-earth never to return. Arwen became a mortal woman and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost. What had Arwen gained? Why could she not die until she had lost what she had gained?

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss and she bore him children--a son, Eldarion, and daughters. When Aragorn told her it was time for him to go to the House of the Kings in the Silent Street, she pleaded with him to stay a while longer. She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her. She now understood the tale of the Númenoreans and pitied them rather than scorned them as she had done before.

Aragorn fell into a sleep and a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.

While...

Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. After bidding farewell to her children, she went out from the City of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.

There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after.

Compare the final resting places and manner for both Aragorn and Arwen. Why is Aragorn's death so beautiful while Arwen's is so sad and obscure?

Why would Arwen choose to die alone in Lórien rather than next to Aragorn in Gondor? Was Arwen fated to this doom? Didn't she deserve a better ending?

If her union with Aragorn was to strengthen the Númenorean line again, why would she leave her children? Was Aragorn the only thing that was important to her?

[Andorinha]

Oooo...

Some excellent questions here, Stormrider -- need to read the Arwen and Aragorn romance again, will be back soon...

[Stormrider]

This love story is so beautiful and so tragic. Aragorn and Arwen's love must have been very strong. Arwen gave up so much to become Human; but if she hadn't made the decision to wed Aragorn and live the rest of her life with him, would she have been happy remaining an Elf and living without him for thousands of years? But if she had chosen to remain an Elf and let Aragorn go, that would mean their love had not been that strong to begin with.

It was fated that they fall in love and wed. It seems that they could have done nothing but take this path. It seems to me that Free Choice was not an option:

Galadriel knew Arwen was there and that she was grave and seldom laughed. When Aragorn walked toward Arwen under the trees of Caras Galadhon clothed as such, her choice was made and her doom appointed. How was this choice made?

[Andorinha]

As I read through the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, I am somewhat shocked at how ignorant I am concerning Arwen herself. I think I know Luthien Tinuviel far better than Arwen -- that is, when I imagine Luthien being confronted by some situation or another, I think I know how she would feel, and how she would react. With Galadriel (especially after our fairly lengthy meeting with her in Lothlorien as the Fellowship takes its rest there), I believe Tolkien has given us quite a good insight into her personality, her motivations, her likely choices of action. But, maybe because Arwen is never highlighted, never allowed to do much in LOTR, she remains, at least to me, a shadowy figure; and I cannot convince myself that her motivations follow any rules.

Is she "selfish?" She does leave her children, contrary to "standard expectations," to wander off to Cerin Amroth for a "private death." She does seem to be a "complainer," after having made her choice to become mortal, she then, at the end, seems to rue that choice. Her death does not seem to be a calm/ comforting passing-on, as was Aragorn's. Arwen dies, maybe, a bit begrudgingly? Is Tolkien being unfair to her, contrasting her "grudging death" with the almost beatific demise of Aragorn?

Perhaps these seeming character flaws, inconstancies, inconsistencies and discomforting actions would make better sense to us had Tolkien really given us a chapter or two showing her "in action," revealing her personality to the readers?

I'm also left wondering about the simple mechanics of Arwen becoming mortal. Because of her High Status, I assume she would, at the moment of her choice, no longer have her Elven "immortality," but would switch to a Numenorean life span of 210 years, with the grace of giving it up when she chose. So, even after Aragorn's death she should still have almost 100 years of normal life yet to go. As Stormrider suggests, why not spend her last century with the kids, grandkids, etc, further solidifying her dynasty? It would be a matter of great prestige/ wonder/ awe to have a "Queen Mum" who had a living memory of times all the way back into the First Age! But, hubby dies, and off she goes... If Tolkien is trying to show us how deeply Arwen loved Aragorn, how deeply dependent she was upon him, I think he might have given us a better explanation of the matter. I don't think Tolkien has prepared us for her actions, which do seem to jarringly violate what we might be expecting of her. As it is, almost out of the blue, we are confronted with her choice to go off and do a sort of "suicide" simply because Aragorn is gone. Strange. It does not seem to fit the Roman Catholic ethic I would expect from Tolkien.

Need to do some more reading and thinking here, then I'll be back to go through the questions one by one, and see if I can make any sense of it...

************

A quick addendum here with some thoughts I'll need to work on:

Didn't Tolkien already show us this sort of "suicidal female" before? Thinking here of Feanor's mother, who was so depressed and burnt out by giving birth to such a fiery son, that she "suicided" in Valinor. She did not merely "die" to go to the Halls of Mandos, as I remember it, but died completely, perhaps the only Elf to end so finally.

And then there is another example, didn't Aragorn's own mother, after the death of her beloved husband, give birth to her son, saying something like "I have given hope to the Dunedain, but kept none for myself." And then she willed herself to die, to follow her husband... Are we to see Arwen in this light?

[Andorinha]

In doing some further reading, I came serendipitously across another example of a "suicidal woman" in Tolkien. I had not thought about it in this way before, but even Eowyn seems to fits the bill here, though she does not complete the action:

"But there is another layer of intensity on Eowyn's want of battle -- she attempts a suicide mission, choosing death over living without the love of Aragorn." (Katherine Hesser article "Eowyn," in Michael Drout, Tolkien Encyclopedia, p. 169, my emphasis)

I guess this gives us at least four major examples of suicide, or suicide-like action among Tolkien's female characters. Maybe 5 with Nienor?

Of course we need to define "suicide" here, does willfully stopping one's own existence by refusing to go on (Miriel, Gilraen), constitute suicide? What was Tolkien doing here, why so many willful self-endings. Is this a trait he reserves for women, or do some of his male characters simply refuse "to go on?" Turin himself is such a male suicide, any others?

[Andorinha]

No takers? LOL -- OK...

Again, from Michael Drout's Tolkien Encyclopedia:

Some cultures (such as classical Roman or Japanese) have seen the taking of one's own life as honorable in certain circumstances, but in the Christian West it has traditionally been viewed as an act of despair that bars one from salvation. When Gandalf seeks to dissuade Denethor from killing himself and his own son, his argument is the thoroughly Christian one that the steward does not have the authority to order the hour of his own death, and he speaks disparagingly of "heathen kings" in the past, under the domination of the Dark Power, slaying themselves in pride and despair (RK, V, vii, 853). Any good Catholic of Tolkien's generation might have argued the same. Suicides are rare in Tolkien's fiction.
(M Drout, Tolkien Encyclopedia, article on "Death," by Richard C. West, pp 628-29)

Maybe not so rare? Turin, tries suicide, is prevented, then later asks his magical, talking sword to kill him, and it does. His sister, Nienor also encompasses her own death. Denethor, is of course our prime example of suicide in LOTR, but what I'm wondering now is whether Miriel, Gilraen, Arwen, and maybe even Aragorn can be said to have hastened their own ends by deliberate choice, and so have all committed "suicide?"

Normally, we mortals today drag out our existences until some outside event finally takes us away in our dotage -- we do not have the Numenorean advantage of simply willing our own ends before senility/ dotage and a final act of heart attack/ brain stroke finishes us off. I wonder if Tolkien ever considered the implications here: when Aragorn dies before his utter, final physical end, he is consciously deciding to die before his senility/ dotage. Is this not suicide? Maybe he could have lived on another dozen years before succumbing to a natural death, and by Roman Catholic standards, should this not be his duty? In Arwen's case, with at least 100 more years of Numenorean life span before her, the decision to will her own death looks even more egregiously suicidal? Gilraen at least put off her own death for some 20 years to get Aragorn fully weaned and raised, but still decided to die before her final limit.

What is Tolkien doing here? Speaking through Gandalf, he condemns Denethor's decision to die early, but then glides over the "premature" deaths of Aragorn and Arwen?

I am puzzled here.

[Stormrider]

Andorinha: I have been very busy and haven't had time to look at TR posts this week. You have been busy, I see.

You bring up some good points about suicide. To me, the will to die before you are sickly doesn't make sense. Why would one wish to die when they were still in reasonably good health? That does not make sense at all.

The Numenorians seem so strong so choising to die when still healthy doesn't seem to fit with their character. I should look into UT and read the chapters on Numenor to see if there is anything else in there that can give us some clues.

Yes, JRRT is very confusing with his suicidal characters. Funny this study topic is bringing up this interesting discussion!

Well, going camping this weekend with Desi and her family so I will be back next week.

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Arwen and Gilraen's deaths always struck me as reflecting Tolkien's old fashioned notions of love. When the men they loved passed on, both women gave up the will to live and died of broken hearts, essentially. This is a common theme in classic literature--one partner wasting away when the other has died. I guess it's meant to be romantic but I always thought a character seemed stronger if he or she endured and kept living after tragedy.

That perspective is a more modern notion of love and gender roles though. Look at, for example, the difference between Romeo and Juliet and West Side Story. In one, the lovers die together. In the other, the woman chooses to live, grieving but still strong.

As for Arwen leaving her children, I always assumed they were fully grown by then. Not that a child doesn't always need and value a parent but they were adults and she trusted them to take care of themselves and the kingdom. Arwen had already lived a pretty long life before becoming mortal. Maybe with Aragorn gone, her mortal friends old or dead, and the Elves off in Valinor, she was just done with Middle-earth.

(By the way, the "Queen Mum" wouldn't have had a memory stretching back to the First Age. Wasn't she born in the Third? Her dad Elrond wasn't born until the last decades of the First Age.)

*****************************************************

As far as the difference between Denethor's suicide and Aragorn laying down his life, I think motive is the key. Denethor gave in to despair and killed himself in desperation. Aragorn sensed that his long life was reaching its end and chose to go out on a high note before senility and infirmity robbed him of his dignity, health, and sense of self. Again, by modern standards, we consider this odd. We're used to modern medicine allowing us to have longer lives, if not necessarily better ones. But maybe Tolkien considered Aragorn's death to be a dignified way of passing on. More so than an aged and infirm King Elessar with Alzheimers and adult diapers perhaps.

[Andorinha]

Oops, you're right, Freddie, early third age birth for Arwen!

Stormrider, I'll check UT, apparently it has some updated notes on Arwen.

Freddie, hmm, motive may make a big difference here comparing Aragorn to Denethor, maybe less difference when we look at Miriel and Gilraen, even Arwen? Out of despair, however caused, it seems all three of the ladies die when they could have carried on with some important roles yet to play. Maybe with a mother, Feanr would not have been so insecure, so prone to egotism? Denethor, likewise could still, as Gandalf told him, played a role in the defense of the city -- so there may be an element of irresponsible egotism in all four of these suicides?

I'll do some more reading.

Meanwhile, in this topic, there is also the "love story" angle itself to be considered, how does this tale, as a romance stand up to others -- especially that of Luthien and Beren, which seems a close model for Aragorn and Arwen.

[Stormrider]

In today's time, deep love might play a huge role in the remaining partner's death. Some people are so in love that once their spouse passes away, they, too, follow shortly after. Not sure if they will it on themselves but it may be so subtle that they are just wilting and dying on the inside because of feeling that loss and kinship.

Arwen may have felt the same inside with the loss of Aragorn. To top it off, she was not an elf anymore and that could have been extremely painful to her during her entire time with Aragorn even though she loved him so deeply.

I think that she may not have been able to have been laid to rest next to him in the Hall of Kings after she passed. Wasn't that just for the Kings themselves and not their family? It may be that she felt closer to her true being to go off to Lothlorien to die. She must have been wilting and dying on the inside and could feel that. She may not have actually committed suicide, just faded into death from grief of her deep loss. See my bolding below.

Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. After bidding farewell to her children, she went out from the City of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.

There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after.

[Andorinha]

Some very good points here, Stormrider -- be back soon with some comments.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's "In today's time, deep love might play a huge role in the remaining partner's death."

Ah, I like this point, Stormrider, it reminds me that we are dealing with complex matters here. In the Real Earth Middle Ages, marriages for dynastic purposes were often arranged as love-less matches, strictly political unions. In Middle-earth, we are dealing not with reality, but with Tolkien's personal belief system. Here, he uses a "romantic love" theme, Aragorn and Arwen, like Luthien and Beren, or even Thingol and Melian, fall utterly in love with each other. When Thingol dies, at the hands of the dwarves, Melian soon leaves Middle-earth, not a "suicide" situation as such, but a complete abandonment of her kingdom, her son Dior, and all of Middle-earth. She "dies" out of ME history, simply cannot go on there without her mate.

I think this "Romeo-Juliet" type of ending still resonates with us today as somehow romantically correct, but maybe legally/ and in a professional psychiatric analysis, these deaths would clinically be described, nonetheless, as suicides?

Beren dies, and Luthien quickly, deliberately, follows him into death. Aragorn dies, by his own will (suicide?), rather than hanging on until senility and heart failure/ stroke can claim him; and Arwen then finds no reason to stay alive without him...

The real question here, at least for me, is, despite all the "romantic-love" trappings, do these "deaths" of the wives represent a form of "suicide?" Tolkien might not have considered this "suicide angle," despite his RC faith. He was a "romantic" himself, did he just "overlook" the suicide implications in his rush to demonstrate how deep was the love between his Elven-Human pairs? I'm sure, if he had stopped to consult his local priest, that he'd be horrified by the imputation that Luthien and Arwen are suicides -- but then, the Old Boy lived in a dream world of his own making, and I think it seemed to him that such deaths represented a "fitting," poignant, and even "tear-jerking" denouement to these love stories. These women loved their mates so deeply, they could not survive the deaths of their mates. I think this concept, used by the bard of Avon in Romeo and Juliet, became a part of the English mentality of romance -- but, I still find the actions of Luthien, Arwen, even Juliet very disquieting -- suicides all?

[Stormrider]

Is dying from a broken heart a real physical condition?
It appears that stress, anxiety, and grief can lead to heart failure.

Little News Video with this one: online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703615904575053443911673752.htmlThe mysterious malady mimics heart attacks, but appears to have little connection with coronary artery disease. Instead, it is typically triggered by acute emotion or physical trauma that releases a surge of adrenaline that overwhelms the heart. The effect is to freeze much of the left ventricle, the heart's main pumping chamber, disrupting its ability to contract and effectively pump blood.

www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=52318

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11446-2005Feb9.html

This one is a news broadcast:
www2.nbc17.com/news/2012/feb/15/dying-broken-heart-vi-40815/

Hmmm . . . Stories of real families that have gone through this so-called broken heart death:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27106343/ns/health-aging/t/dying-broken-heart-families-share-stories/

So if we go with this path, it isn't suicide at all.

[Andorinha]

Oooo, some good stuff here, Stormrider, digesting it now -- be back soon, maybe on the new computer, hope to pick it up Monday or Tuesday.

Off hand, I guess "motivation/ intent" must be fully known to determine a suicidal element in "death by broken-heart." Tinuviel seems to have gone quickly after Beren, no time for reflection or deliberation; Gilraen stuck around -- in a miserable state -- for some 20 years, doing her mother's basic duty by Aragorn til he was nearly grown; and Arwen seems to have taken about a year to linger in Lorien before finally passing. The last two had time to reflect on what they were doing, the deliberateness of their deaths seems more pronounced?

[Stormrider]

Apr 14, 2012 9:36:54 GMT -6 Andorinha said:

Off hand, I guess "motivation/ intent" must be fully known to determine a suicidal element in "death by broken-heart." Tinuviel seems to have gone quickly after Beren, no time for reflection or deliberation; Gilraen stuck around -- in a miserable state -- for some 20 years, doing her mother's basic duty by Aragorn til he was nearly grown; and Arwen seems to have taken about a year to linger in Lorien before finally passing. The last two had time to reflect on what they were doing, the deliberateness of their deaths seems more pronounced?

Perhaps Gilraen and Arwen were just stronger women to begin with. Gilraen may even have been fighting off the possible death from broken-heartedness in order to take care of Aragorn til he was grown. Then after that, she may have just given in to it due to lack of any more strength.

How old were Arwen and Elessar's children when he passed away? Were they adults? The Wedding was on Mid-Year's Day (July 17th?) of 3019 (or 1419 Shire Reckoning). King Elessar passed on March 1st of 1541 Shire Reckoning. I don't see any birthdates for their children in the Appendix. From the wedding until Elessar's death, it is 122 years--plenty of time to have children, but WHEN did they have them? I would like to think they had them earlier in their life together rather than later. That way, they were already grown when Arwen went off to Lothlorien.