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Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 11:15:04 GMT -6
From: Algamesh_of_Arnor (Original Message) Sent: 3/21/2003 2:32 AM
First of all, can I get one of our Quenya linguists to translate these statements fully and accurately? Just attach the translation to this post ...
The very first Elvish statement in this post is uttered by Frodo as he grasps Galadriel's Phial. The second set of statements is chanted by Samwise as he makes use of the Phial. Obviously, the speech is flawless and the voice that is sounded through our hobbits is not their own. So, who is speaking through them? What is the purpose of such speech? Is the Phial the source of this attribute or do the voices manifest from "outside" the Phial? Please explain your answers clearly!
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 11:16:18 GMT -6
From: Selmo Sent: 3/21/2003 3:39 AM
Sam's prayer is similar to the invocation of Elbereth that Frodo heared in the Hall of Fire at Rivendell.
"It is a song to Elbereth," said Bilbo. "They will sing that, and other songs of the Blessed Realm, many times tonight."
Sam had a great love of song and poetry. Perhaps his prayer is from one of those "other songs" learned in Rivendell, brought back from his memory by the light of the Phial.
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/22/2003 12:31 PM
I was going to try to translate this and I didn't do too badly except there are still a few words that I do not have in my Quenya to English dictionary! So more investigation for me.
Anyway, I was thinking that Galadriel's Phial may have had a mystical power to give Frodo and Sam the knowledge to speak in tongues.
Stormrider
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 25, 2009 11:20:39 GMT -6
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 4/24/2003 4:27 PM
I don’t blame StormRider, or anyone else for not taking the translation challenge. Although any of us who has read the “Tales” a few times has a general idea of what they mean, we must dig to understand exactly what is meant. Even then as in the case of the second phrase it may be unclear.
Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!
{Hail/Behold Sea-friend of-stars brightest!}
It is pretty straight forward, being a short and sweet honor to Eärendil or the planet Venus. (As it is the morning star to us.)
On the second phrase we run into several translation issues, on whether or not this is a Quenya or Sindarin phrase. We also need to consider:
My notes, list, and myself are not by any means the final authority when it comes to the subject of Tolkien’s languages, so take what I write with a grain of salt.
That this phrase may not be completely correct in either tongue according to Tolkien’s “final word” as he was forever fiddling with his languages.
The Epithets: Gilthoniel, Elbereth, Fanuilos, as well Tintallë are all names for Varda. I suspect even though they are of different language origins, I do not think they are exclusive to any one tongue.
Gilthoniel- (S)
Gil- (n)- star
Thon- (?) possibly “rooted” within Thond- root. (Representing an origin)
-iel- Feminine suffix.
A- (S and Q)
(S)
(The imperative and vocative particle “O!” But also “and” when expressed in lower case letters within the sentence)
(Q)
(Same as Sindarin, only it’s use as “and” occurs little. It also is used as a prefix to describe what the object of the sentence is doing within some Quenya literature.) {An example from the “Markirya”: “Man cenuva lumbor ahosta”- “Who shall see the clouds gather.” “Hosta”- “gather” It defines the “clouds gathering” as the subject so not to confuse the listener that might think “who” is the subject.}
Elbereth- (S and Q)
El- (n)-“Star” in both Quenya and Sindarin.
Bereth- (n)- Queen, or spouse.
-Second line just a reversal of first.-
o- (S and Q)
(S)
(prep)-“From” or (prep)-“of”
(Q)
(A prefix used within words describing a meeting of two, or a union of two things or persons.)
{Used as the conjunction “and” but only once and that is within the text of “Sauron’s Defeat” all other sources use “ar” for “and” in Quenya.}
Menel- (S and Q)
(n)-“Heavens”
Palan-(S and Q)
(adv)-“Far and Wide” or (adv)-“Far-off”
From the word Palantir.
-diriel- (S)
(n)-“Gaze” or (v)-“Gazing”
Dir- (n)-“Gaze” as compared to the (S and Q) “Tir”- (n)- “Watch”
(Weather it is “gaze” or “gazing” is beyond my Sindarin studies, hence both meanings. The fact that the suffix “iel” is pasted to the end causes me no end of confused musing. But Sindarin is confusing.)
Le- (S)
(pron)-“Thee”
{It’s a stretch, but “lië”- “people” might be the Quenya equivalent.)
Nallon- (S and Q)
“I cry” {No explanation here, Ruth Noel’s translation. My Sindarin is poor and I have no roots to this phrase that make any sense. Perhaps Galenas might?}
(Q)
Na- (3rd person indi)“Is”
-llo- (ablative ending)- “From”
-n- (pron) “I” or a dative or plural ending.
Si- (S and Q)
(S)
(adv)-“Here”
(Q)
(n-adv)-”Now” {It should be noted that “si” is used within Quenya as “here” in the poem “Firiel’s Song” but this was a anomaly.}
Di’nguruthos- (S)
(S)
Di’n- ?“Horned” from “Dil”- (n) “Point” or “Horn”
Guruth- (n)“Death”
Os- ?“Fortress” Root of “Ost”- (n) “fortress”
“Horned Death’s Fortress”?
(A tough one for me, the only one I’m sure of is “death”)
A- (S)
“O” (Explained above.)
Tiro- (S and Q)
(S)
Tir- (v) “Watch” Tiro- (v)“Watch over”
(Q)
Tir- (v) “Watch, Watch over” Tirion- (n) “Watch”
Nin- (S and Q)
(S)
(adj)“Wet”
(Q)
Ni- (pron)- “I” Nin- (dative pron)-“To me, for me”
Fanuilos- (S and Q)
(S)
Fan- (n)- “Cloud” From Sindarin form of Cloudy-head- “Fanuidhol”
Ui- (adv)- “Ever”
Los- (adj)- “Snow-white”
(Q)
Fana- (n)- “Veils or raiment of the Valar as seen by physical eyes” (Exclusive to the Valar, as the word “veil” in Quenya is “vasar”)
Fána/Fánë- (n)- “White”
Nu- (prep)- “Under”
Uil or Ui- (prep) “Long flowing, trailing” Root of “Uilë”- “Long trailing plant”
Los- (adj)- “Snow-white” Root of “Lossë”-“snow”
Os- (adj)- “strong” Root of “Osto”- “fortress”
So here for better or worse is the translation:
Of Star-maiden
O
Star-Queen
of (the) heavens,
Fare-gazing thee!
(S)"I cry" (Q)"Is from I"
here
Horned Death Fortress
O
Watch over (S) "wet" (Q)"for me"
(S) "Ever Snow-white" (Q) "Veiled Valar flowing strong"
After looking at this, it's caused me a pause. Granted I could be taking root forms too literally. (I have been accused of such. LOL!) But it appears that Tolkien did not pay close attention to which language he created this prayer in. I will follow up with some more learned than I and report back.
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Post by Andorinha on Dec 1, 2010 10:53:15 GMT -6
UPDATING: Well done Iarwain! Most of the grammar and the words in these "hymns" or supplications to Elbereth/ Varda are (as Iarwain recognized) Sindarin. With the benefit of 8 more years of study, recent scholarship has compiled a set of consensus readings for these verses. A Elbereth GilthonielO Elbereth Starkindler, silivren penna mírielwhite-glittering, slanting down sparkling like a jewel, o menel aglar elenath!the glory of the starry host! Na-chaered palan-dírielHaving gazed far away o galadhremmin ennorath,from the tree-woven lands of Middle-earth, Fanuilos, le linnathonto thee, Everwhite, I will sing, nef aear, sí nef aearon!on this side of the Sea, here on this side of the Ocean! FotR A Elbereth GilthonielO Elbereth Star-kindler, o menel palan-díriel,from heaven gazing afar, le nallon sí di'-nguruthos!to thee I cry now beneath the shadow of death! A tíro nin, Fanuilos!O look towards me, Everwhite! TT A! Elbereth Gilthoniel!O! Elbereth Starkindler, silivren penna mírielwhite-glittering, slanting down sparkling like a jewel, o menel aglar elenath,the glory of the starry host Gilthoniel, A! Elbereth!Starkindler, O! Elbereth! We still remember, we who dwell In this far land beneath the trees The starlight on the western seas. RotK source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel
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