The Place of "Men" in Middle-earth

[Andorinha]

Just why were Men created? What purpose do they serve in the Grand Scheme of Middle-earth Things? What was Eru thinking when he made them?

I've been "mulling this one over" for quite a while now, even re-read the pertinent Silmarillion passages of chapters 1, 12, and 17 twice in the attempt to get some "handle" on the topic: Men in Middle-earth. But, it all seems shadowy, vague, merely suggestive -- lacking any clear delineation or graspable form: just how did Men come to be; what are their fundamental natures in Tolkien's universe; what roles are they assigned in the Middle-earth narratives; how closely do they conform to their real-life counterparts; and is there really a Biblical-tradition-root for ME's mankind (deducible from the original texts)?

At least the Sumerians were expicit in defining the purpose of humanity's creation:
"But in principle, the gods were the masters of the world; and mankind had been created to serve them."*

For many Mesoamerican cultures, this was likewise the answer to "purpose": humans were created to serve the gods, and through the act of sacrifice, they nourished the gods with human flesh, keeping the divinities alive, and insuring thereby the continued existence of the universe.

But, does JRRT ever give us an explicit reason/ purpose for human existence?

________________________
*"A Comparative Study of Six City States," p. 24, Aage Westenholz

[Stormrider]

In the Ainulindalë, Tolkien wrote that Ilúvatar spoke about the Children of Ilúvatar, the Firstborn and the Followers, Elves and Men, to the Ainur. (p 18 in my copy of the Sil) They are the Third Theme of the music and creation.

I remember Ilúvatar saying of the vastness of Arda needed to be filled and that the Children were planned--Men were part of the plan. Melkor latched on to this theme and planned to subdue both the Elves and Men so he could have his own servants.

However, I don't recall the awakening of Man as I do the Elves. Wait! Just glancing at Chapter 12 Men, they awoke in the land of Hildórien in the eastern regions of Middle-earth and their eyes turned towards the Sun rising in the West and their feet strayed that way.

OK...I guess I missed the main thought in your post--WHY were Men created? Well, Why were Elves created? To fill Arda up! lol! I don't know...I will have to read these chapters myself and see if I can come up with any insight.

Did you check any of the HoME books? I bet you are doing that now!

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: "WHY were Men created? Well, Why were Elves created? To fill Arda up! lol! I don't know...I will have to read these chapters myself and see if I can come up with any insight."

LOL, indeed! This is really a strange thing for an author who always paid so much attention to the background, detail histories of his sub-created realm -- there seems to be no statements of WHY, or even HOW. Most creation stories are precisely geared to this end, telling curious people WHY they are here, often giving complex and very detailed accounts of HOW humans were fashioned. It is remarkable that so many creation myths start with dust, dirt, clay or perhaps a piece of bone, or some part of a plant being fashioned into the first human bodies, and then some "divine" essence is "breathed" into the forms to animate them. Quite often there is a First Man and a First Woman.

For the Dwarves, we have a fairly late (1950s and in part 1956) creation myth that follows this pattern nicely: Aule makes the Dwarves stone-like (actually from stone?), "strong and unyielding," using his skill as a master-smith to first create the Seven Fathers of the Dwarven-kind. He makes them in his underground palace and forge, and it is in underground places where they will themselves live and work at their own forges. At first the Seven Fathers are without spirit, mere automata, robotic creatures that move and act if they are directly set in motion by Aule's guiding thought. Later Eru grants them the Flame Imperishable, the breath of Living Spirit and they become living, self-actuating beings. Alas, no real statement of "purpose" is given, I suppose the Dwarves will act as the Children and servants of Aule, give him some beings who share a good deal of his own interests, beings with whom he may converse and teach his skills fulfilling his need to be a father himself. Alas, again, no creation of Female Dwarves is mentioned, so how do the Dwarves ever became a "gendered" people capable of procreation? This "sexual" matter is left entirely dangling...

For Men, there is also a peculiar lack of treatment of gender, no Deucalion and Pyrra, or Corn-Man and Corn-Woman, no Adam and Eve to get the race started. We seem, for Men, to have a repeat of the vague Elven "awakening" where a largish number of individuals simply rise up from a protected place of sleep and start filtering out into the world.

So WHY is all this left so vague? IF JRRT was influenced deeply by the Judaeo/ Christian /Islamic belief system, why is his "sub-creation" of Men in Middle-earth so lacking in Christian detail? Even the Narnia cycle has its Adam and Eve, its Noah and Wife and Ark, so why does JRRT leave out this "Man-Woman" element of his creation? I was wondering if he was following a Norse pagan creation line here, but even in the mythologies of the Nordic peoples I have, there is still a First-Man and a First-Woman whose sexual coupling eventually fills the world with humans...

But, for Men in Middle-earth, we have no real act of "making," do we? Are Men made of earth, dust, clay? Were they fashioned by hand as Aule made his Dwarves? Did they require an act of divine "inspiration," the breathing of life-force into their bodies before they could be autonomous individuals? Likewise, for Middle-earth, we have Two Primeval Trees of Light in Valimar, but these serve quite different functions from Eden's Two Trees, the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge (of Good and Evil). So, in Middle-earth we have no "Tree-stories," with their Forbidden Fruits, to show us how Men came to have critical thought and the ability to shape their own paths through existence. Though of this latter (the development of independent thought and will) there is some hint in The Ainulindale when it states that Men are not simply pre-destined creatures bound to Fate. But how did Men gain this ability to innovate, to follow a pattern of self-directed Free Will? I can find no JRRT statement that reveals this critical human knowledge.

Sigh, yes, I will be looking into the HOME volumes, especially the very late works where JRRT in 1963 (and on until his death) was deliberately re-writing The Silmarillion to make it more Christian, to see if he started using a more detailed Christian explanation here. But, the interesting thing for me in this context, is that in the early versions of the Middle-earth creation, I think I see very little that looks genuinely Judaeo-Christian-Islamic, or seems to be derived from the Near Eastern Sumerian originals upon which the creation of Man in the Judaeo-Christian-Islamic tradition was based. There is a vague mention of a sort of Fall from Grace that propels Men out of the protected place of their awakening, but this we have only in hints, and those who might have known what happened, were reluctant to tell the tale to the Elves, and soon the Cause of Man's disgrace in Middle-earth, seems to have simply been forgotten. Not a very Christian thing, where the Fall is very much alive all throughout the Biblical tradition, and forms a basic part of the explanation of why things are the way they are today.

LOL, lots more research left to do!

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Could the purpose of Men be related to their mortality? Tolkien often made reference to the "Doom of Men" (which I think in the archaic sense meant "fate"). But he also called it the "Gift of Men," so their short lifespans were seemingly of some value.

Think about those who came before Men. The Ainur were eternal spirits and in some ways simply extensions of Eru's will. The Elves were immortal and had all the time in the world to achieve their accomplishments. But Men are only in Middle-earth for a short time and thus perhaps appreciate that time all the more. And when they die, their spirits are reunited with Eru, whereas the Elves and Ainur linger on indefinitely.

I don't have the book in front of me but in The Children of Hurin, there is a reference to how elf children and human children look similar but human children are considered more precious because their lives are briefer. Perhaps Men's fragility gives them a unique place in the grand design. Their limited time in Middle-earth forces them to make the most of what they're given. This gives them a decidedly different outlook on the world and a different sense of purpose.

[Andorinha]

RE: Fredegar's -- "Could the purpose of Men be related to their mortality?" ... "Perhaps Men's fragility gives them a unique place in the grand design. Their limited time in Middle-earth forces them to make the most of what they're given. This gives them a decidedly different outlook on the world and a different sense of purpose."

Hmmm. I LIKE this, Fredegar!

It does give us a "Purpose" of sorts, a unique "function" that Mankind alone can perform: Men view existence through the lenses of their unique type of Mortality, producing in their minds a "decidedly different outlook on the world".

So, does this "different outlook" have any extended/ deep meaning for Middle-earth? Is there a Purpose to it?

Here, I think you quite rightly point out that JRRT makes a deliberate "fuss" of this Mortality issue, so it must have some meaning, some purpose in his narratives. Along with an enhanced Free-will, Eru gives Men their peculiar mortality (is this short-life span to keep Men from introducing too much Free Will alteration of the universe?). But, he actually calls this mortality the "Gift of Iluvatar to Men." Men, under the twisting influence of Melkor (Sil p. 42), might come to see their short-life spans as a curse, but this was not the original intent of Eru. Maybe, the Mortality of Men actually serves a necessary Purpose in Middle-earth, perhaps even a salvific function that will insure the health and well-being of all future existence?

Here, bear with me a bit, I am thinking that both the Elves and Men were created only in the Third Theme of the original Music of Creation (Sil. p. 18*), and that they sprang uniquely from the thought of Eru. They entered the universe AFTER Melkor's contentious nature had ALREADY caused Strife and Discontent to arise in Arda, after this First Creation was "marred." Are the Children somehow meant to act as "correctives" to the damage caused by Melkor? Somehow, the perfected universe originally conceived by Eru must be restored, and Eru does in fact promise that there will be a Second Great Music, a Second Creation in which the harmonies he had originally dreamed up can flow peacefully, and the Strife of Melkor will be healed. JRRT also tells us that the Children of Eru are to have an important place in this proposed Second Creation; their voices, their experiences will be tapped in effecting a renewed and perfected Second Universe. (Sil. p. 42**)

In JRRT's Middle-earth, there are many types of spirits/ souls, and Men have such souls that these spirits outlast their actual short life spans. These souls are, in one sense, recording devices, carrying the experiences of the short-lived individual beyond his/ her death. The information thus recorded is going, eventually, to be put to a very good use. At some distant time, when the current Middle-earth universe has run down, there will be a New Music made, and the universe will be renewed. At this time all the accumulated experiences of Men will be important for helping to shape the proposed Second Creation. The important point here (as Fredegar proposed) is that these recorded experiences of Men will be shaped by their peculiarly short life spans, which gives them a unique perspective on existence, something even the Elves and Ainur cannot feel, know or understand.

Apparently then, we may see the strategic, long-term purpose of Men (and perhaps Elves) as having something to do with this proposed Second Creation, or Revised Creation of the universe. In this scheme, Men (and Elves?) will join Eru and the Ainur in "singing-forth" a renewed universe -- one with "corrections" for the flaws introduced by Melkor in the First Creation episode. In this sense, Men, having such brief lives (deliberately given to them as a Gift) would automatically have a unique perspective on life, death, the universe etc.

So what might this "human," this "mortal" perspective be likely to give the New Universe? Might it have something to do with the sensation of constant change, the rapid passage of Time as felt by those whose life spans are so short? Perhaps, only mortal Men would be able to truly appreciate and empathize with the poignancy of a flower that blooms, and falls in a single day -- but also sets its seed to renew the momentary miracle with the next evanescent Spring? Perhaps the qualities of Pity and Hope are implied here, and these would be the Gifts of Men to the Second Creation?

________________________________
* "For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propunded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making." Sil. p. 18 hb ver

Here, either Elves and Men were mere "afterthoughts" of Eru's, or they were added to the universe with some wider purpose in mind, helping by their experiences in the First, flawed Creation, to make the Second Creation a perfect one?

** "Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it." (Sil. p. 42)

From this quote, I get the very strong sense that Mankind has a definite Purpose in JRRT's Middle-earth, a purpose that maybe even the Elves cannot share? Perhaps ONLY Men will add their voices to the Second Creation? At any rate, it does definitely show that the experiences of Men, recorded in their souls, will be important in shaping the New Universe, the Second Arda, Second Middle-earth.

[Stormrider]

I am confused. Are you are talking about a second creation or the second theme? And what are the Themes anyway?

1st Theme - Creation of the World - Music by the Ainur based on Ilúvatar's vision

2nd Theme - Is this the correcting of Melkor's meddling? Or does it have more to do with the earth, wind, stars, waters, animals? I don't find that the 2nd Theme is clearly defined in The Sil - unless I am missing it somehow.

3rd Theme - The Children (Elves and Men) - conceived by Ilúvatar Himself

So Ilúvatar created, with the music of the Ainur, Arda. It was a vast place and had more room than He and His Ainur could fill. He planned on having the Children live in Arda. The Ainur were surprised and excited about The Children.

The Elves were the firstborn, then came Men. In the meantime, Aulë created the Dwarves, Yavanna created the Ents, and Melkor corrupted some of the Elves (and/or Men?) to create the Orcs. What about Trolls--were they another corruption of Melkor's or are they considered "animal"? Are there any other people-like beings I've missed?

So if I follow your line of thought correctly: from the experiences of HIS Children (not those created by others), Ilúvatar is using this first creation of Arda and all that happened on it as a trial run so he could create a second unflawed Arda with perfect Children?

Men with their short lives react to the world around them and their mortality differently than Elves who live forever and see life repeat itself over and over again. How would having these different perspectives help create a better Arda?

I think the problem in the First Arda was Melkor and if it had been created without his interference, the First Arda would have been the perfect world and there would not have to have been a second Arda. So then why create two different Children at all?

[Andorinha]

It does get a bit confusing. The Second Music is specifically for a Second, new Creation and it has not yet been sung. The "Second Theme" is just the Middle Effort of the First Music:

First Music - First Creation - First Universe
1. First Theme (interrupted by Melkor)
2. Second Theme (interrupted badly by Melkor)
3. Third Theme introduces Children of Illuvatar and an attempt to harmonize Melkor's discordance sufficiently to allow the First Universe to sort of hobble through its assigned destinies: First Age, Second Age, Third Age, Fourth Age. Sometime after (during?) the Fourth Age, this First World, First Creation and its First Music will end.

Regarding the First Music of the First Creation: "Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this [the First Music], though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days." (Sil. p. 15 hb version)

This Second Music, the "greater" one, will be arranged to create a Second, New, Perfected Universe, and the input of Men and Ainur will be used in this new creation. But JRRT was uncertain whether or not the Elves would have a role in this Second Music for the creation of the Second Universe. Apparently Melkor/ Morgoth will also be left in the Void at this time and have no opportunity of messing up the Second Music. In this scheme, the First Creation/ First Music is a sort of trial run for the eventual Second Creation/ Second Music, so we are currently living near the end of the First Universe, a practice universe where all the bugs are supposedly going to be worked out...


RE Stormrider's -- "So Ilúvatar created, with the music of the Ainur, Arda. It was a vast place and had more room than He and His Ainur could fill. He planned on having the Children live in Arda. The Ainur were surprised and excited about The Children." (emphasis mine)

Hmmm, from the impression I have of the original creation, Ainulindale pp 15 -22 in the hardbound version, I do not get the sense that Iluvatar actually planned on having any of the Children. I wonder if the third theme of the First Music (creating Elves and Men) would have been sung at all had Melkor not messed up the first two themes? So, maybe the existence of Elves and Men was an afterthought with Eru? Maybe somewhere else in The Silmarillion this point is cleared up? Certainly the Ainur saw the introduction of the Children as quite a surprise (Sil.p. 18 hb). But, I got the feeling that even Iluvatar had NOT originally intended the creation of the Children from the following statement that they had not been part of his thought until AFTER the second theme interruption of Melkor: "For the Children of Iluvatar... came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning..." (Sil. p. 18 hb, emphasis mine).

RE Stormrider's "It was a vast place and had more room than He and His Ainur could fill."

I do not know where the idea comes from that the Children of Iluvatar were created with a special purpose of filling up the vast spaces of Arda? Do you have a quote for this? Certainly there was a vast amount of empty territory available, and in some mythologies I think Men were created to fill it up -- but does JRRT actually use this theme? I don't remember seeing it, will look again. Once the Chidren were revealed, the Ainur seem to have become greatly excited by their promised presence, and some of the Ainur seem to have focussed a good deal of their power on the Children (Sil. p. 18) and seem to have become first interested in Arda knowing that was where the Children would find their lives.

"But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief..." (Sil. p18)

From the above quote, I wonder if any of the Ainur (later to be called the Valar and Maiar) would have entered Arda if there had been no Children? In one sense, though it may not have been Iluvatar's original intent, the creation of the Children might be seen as having a great importance/ purpose in that it was the cause of the descent of the gods into the created realm of Arda?

So, in these preliminary musings I now see Mankind's role (and the Elves) as being:

1. A long term corrective for Melkor's disruptions of the First Music; and
2. The "bait" or attractant that got many of the mightiest Ainur to agree to enter Arda and bind themselves to its fate, even though this diminished their original scope and power.

Thanks, Stormrider, LOL, good information in your post that requires more investigation!

[Stormrider]

Andorinha:

Thank you for the short explanation of each of the Themes. I always had a difficult time figuring them out exactly.

This is the passage where I had the idea that Ilúvatar always had planned on creating his Children from the beginning. He just never let the other know of it until he was ready to reveal that thought. The Sil, bottom of p17 and into p18:

"And many other things Ilúvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither along nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do no proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Ilúvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur."

By not revealing EVERYTHING he planned to the Ainur is where I felt he always had planned on them coming into Arda but not until the right time (Third Theme).

* * *
This is where I read that Arda was vast. It was just a small part of the vast Arda where the Children were settled. (next paragraph after the above quote) p18:

"Now the Children of llúvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the inumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur. . ."

So I deduced that was a reason for adding the Children to Arda. I am sure Ilúvatar had more purpose for his Children than just to fill up this vastness. It seems that it gave the Ainur something to look forward to and to strive to make it nice for the Children (and Melkor wanted to rule them and make them his servants).

How lonely would it have been for Ilúvatar and the Ainur to have only themselves to co-exist with in this lovely creation? The creation of the Children seems to have given them something to enjoy, look forward to, and watch to see what the Children would do. I think it could have become very boring after ages and ages to just have each other to live with.

You query: "I wonder if any of the Ainur (later to be called the Valar and Maiar) would have entered Arda if there had been no Children? In one sense, though it may not have been Iluvatar's original intent, the creation of the Children might be seen as having a great importance/ purpose in that it was the cause of the descent of the gods into the created realm of Arda?"

That could very well be the point! Perhaps Ilúvatar not only wanted the Ainur to watch over the Children, but to get involved with them when needed! It seems to me that if the Children were not made aware of any supreme beings, they would not have anything to believe in themselves. Wasn't it Tulkas, the hunter, who was the first Ainur the Children became aware of? And Ulmo was dear to (and feared by) many of the Children. The Children needed to know that there were supreme beings in Arda as well. They revered Varda and named her Elbereth.

So besides giving the Ainur something to watch over and care fore, I think Ilúvatar wanted the Children to worship him and his Ainur as well. Isn't that one of the main reasons in ANY religion?

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Jul 2, 2009 13:22:52 GMT -6 Andorinha said:

So what might this "human," this "mortal" perspective be likely to give the New Universe? Might it have something to do with the sensation of constant change, the rapid passage of Time as felt by those whose life spans are so short? Perhaps, only mortal Men would be able to truly appreciate and empathize with the poignancy of a flower that blooms, and falls in a single day -- but also sets its seed to renew the momentary miracle with the next evanescent Spring? Perhaps the qualities of Pity and Hope are implied here, and these would be the Gifts of Men to the Second Creation?

That's part of it, certainly. But I think the briefness of a mortal lifespan contributes to a person's desire to better themselves and the world. To leave a mark and accomplish something with their life.

The Elves had assurance that the world would always be there and so would they. Couldn't this lead to a sense of complacency or stagnation? Centuries going by where nothing significantly changes because the Elves are taking their time or are looking at the world from a "big picture" perspective, planting seeds for change that don't develop until many decades or centuries later?

Men don't have that luxury. There is more immediacy to their lives and a constant change and development of their place in Arda. Men strive to make advancements in society, culture, science, technology, art, agriculture, etc. They try to make the world a better place for themselves and for future generations. It becomes a more powerful driving force for them since they don't have centuries to accomplish their goals. As such, Arda is always changing and always (theoretically) improving.

Granted, this can work against Men if they give in to their baser desires. Corrupt Men seek to gain as much power and political or religious influence as they can amass. And industry that advances too quickly can destroy Arda's natural beauty (a frequent Tolkien theme). But good Men use their brief time in the world as motivation to achieve great things.

[Stormrider]

Fredegar:

I like the points that you make regarding Men wanting to make the most out of their short time while the Elves have ages to do anything significant during their existence.

I often thought being an Elf could be boring living for thousands and thousands of years over and over again. They must see changes come and go and repeat themselves over the centuries. So with this returning cycle, they may have the perspective to try to alter any of the undesirable changes that keep returning for the long run.

* * *
On another note, the Elves were meant to return to Vallinor and after the War of the Ring, they eventually all moved West leaving Men to reside and rule Middle-earth. Ilúvatar wanted his First Children to come to Valinor and stay there. Not all of them wanted to do that and stayed, some did and set out on the trip but never made it, and some were able to complete the journey. It seems to me that Ilúvatar may have created the Second Children to fill Middle-earth while the First Children returned to Valinor. But if that was Ilúvatar's real intention, why did the first Children awaken so far away in the first place? Why didn't they awaken in Valinor?

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's : "This is the passage where I had the idea that Ilúvatar always had planned on creating his Children from the beginning. He just never let the other know of it until he was ready to reveal that thought. The Sil, bottom of p17 and into p18:"

Yes, thank you, Stormrider. I see where this material is going to become VERY confusing for me. As I read the passage you highlight, I see your point of view is quite valid. But then, as I re-read the sections that influenced my own thought most, it seems to reverse my understanding once again! LOL

Now, I seem to be asking myself: "When did Eru himself really know about the Children?" Of course, the question really is, when did JRRT know about the Children, when did he decide to make his tales a place for human (Elf) development through time. Here, influenced by the Kalevala, JRRT tells us that he wanted to create a myth-history for the English people as early as 1910. And since Chris Tolkien tells us there was an early version of The Ainulindale in existence by 1918-20 (the version in HOME V, The Lost Road, pp170 ff), the purpose of telling the "history" of mankind was already around for some 18 years. So, I guess JRRT must always have had in mind the introduction of Mankind, and somewhere in his creation myth (Ainulindale) they must come into the story. But did JRRT's Eru know this? LOL!

So, as you pose, Stormrider, Eru MUST have had the Children always in mind because Tolkien had them in mind from 1910 on, and he was not merely creating a pleasant story about an "external" playground world made just for the Ainur. Perhaps it is just the way JRRT wrote this material that bothers me, it is not a fully connected, well defined narrative, the "i"s are not all dotted, nor his "t"s all crossed, as I see it. So at times it is hard for me to see what he means as he jumps from one topic to the next and then returns to the Children on a later page. There is still a haunting sense, for me, that Eru came up with the Children ONLY when the Third Theme arose, but I think you are correct in divining JRRT's intention here, in feeling this cannot be, especially if Eru is based on an "All Knowing, All Powerful, All Pervading" god concept. But in that case, an All Knowing god would have foreseen the difficulties inherent in giving Melkor too much power, too much ego and the whole mess with the discordant musics would never have arisen... So Eru can make mistakes, things can slip his mind, he does have to find ways to repair mistakes? LOL, JRRT, I'm sure, would not feel comfortable with that! So, upon this further reflection, I think you've got JRRT's intention down correctly here, that in JRRT's mind, Eru probably had the creation of the Children in his mind before he even started the first and second themes. Maybe, had he lived longer, a third version Ainulindale would have made this clear?

I'm going to re-read the 1918-20 version Ainulindale now, see if there is much difference between it and The Silmarillion version.

[Andorinha]

RE Fredegar's: "hat's part of it, certainly. But I think the briefness of a mortal lifespan contributes to a person's desire to better themselves and the world. To leave a mark and accomplish something with their life.

"The Elves had assurance that the world would always be there and so would they. Couldn't this lead to a sense of complacency or stagnation? Centuries going by where nothing significantly changes because the Elves are taking their time or are looking at the world from a "big picture" perspective, planting seeds for change that don't develop until many decades or centuries later?"

____________________________

Like Stormrider, I agree, this "sense of urgency" could well produce quite a different interaction with the world about them.

_____________________________

Re Stormrider's: "It seems to me that Ilúvatar may have created the Second Children to fill Middle-earth while the First Children returned to Valinor. But if that was Ilúvatar's real intention, why did the first Children awaken so far away in the first place? Why didn't they awaken in Valinor?"

Ooooo!!! Now here's a set of VERY interesting questions, demands some further thought!!!

[Stormrider]

It seems in all fantasy tales that Mankind is always fated to meet up with the fantastical beings and creatures at some point in the tale only to have the fantastical beings and creatures (after having touched the lives of the humans in some way) fade away or go off into some other land while the humans return to their mundane existence. Those humans actually touched by the fantastical beings and creatures remember their encounters and hold that dear and tales were written or told for centuries but the tales fade and are forgotten eventually leaving the humans to believe they were just myths.

If JRRT was trying to create a mythical story for England, I think he was just following this pattern. Mankind is meant to be the main and only remaining people and all others have to touch mankind and fade away to become the myth.

It is a pattern for our own reality. We have ordinary lives and their are some of us who excel and do marvelous things with their lives, others who do small things that don't touch the whole world but maybe certain people, and other who just live their lives without any great impact. Meanwhile we tell tales of the fantasic--Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie, Superman, Spiderman, etc. etc.--there never were any fantasical beings such as these but it gives mankind something fun to read about and enjoy to liven up our ordinary lives.

We all believe (well most of us) in the creator in some form or other and that seems to be a constant. We need to believe that this world was created for some purpose and that there is some destiny for us all that has been planned for us by the creator.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: "If JRRT was trying to create a mythical story for England, I think he was just following this pattern. Mankind is meant to be the main and only remaining people and all others have to touch mankind and fade away to become the myth."

Nicely put, Stormrider. JRRT like so many true-believer Christians, was, nonetheless ultimately VERY anthropocentric. All other lifeforms are reduced to quaint influences, not really as important as Mankind, and soon allowed to shuffle off the planet. That always amused me, that supposedly "God-centered" believers would put so much time and effort into creating a human-centered universe... seems almost secular-humanistic!? lol

I wonder if the animals of Middle-earth thought that the creation of Arda was meant for them?

[Stormrider]

I wonder if the animals of Middle-earth thought that the creation of Arda was meant for them?

I know my animals have opinions. For instance, when I give Toi a bath because we are going to perform with the drill team, I usually give Storm a bath, too, because she likes it. This past week, when we went to NY to perform for the troops, I washed Toi but didn't give Storm a bath and it seemed as if she was waiting for me to take her out and give her one! I know they get jealous if one gets a horse treat and another doesn't--so you HAVE to be fair!

We had the animal communicator out one year to "talk" to our horses and we were amazed at some of the things she told us our horses said and felt. For instance, Desi's horse, Melony, told the communicator that there was a fox hole in our middle pasture and there was! Scott's horse, Red Hot Desire, was appearing to the communicator with a due rag on her head and when asked why, she said she wanted to look nice for Scott (who wears a due rag on his head quite a bit--however, that day he only had a baseball cap on!) Storm wanted to know if we would breed her ever. Which really surprised me because she is a rather aloof horse and likes to be a loner in the heard--stands away off to the side while the rest are more grouped together. She told the communicator that she would rather do artificial insemination than an actual encounter with a stallion. (of course, the communicator explained insemination to her first). These are things the communicator had no way of knowing!