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Post by Androga Erindalant on Aug 12, 2009 14:28:11 GMT -6
Ch 18: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin [/u] Fingolfin pondered on a new war with Morgoth, as the Enemy ever remained a threat to Beleriand. Yet as the land was in peace, most Elves didn't feel for war. Morgoth prepared for war too, however. The Dark Lord released rivers of flame, destroying Ard-Galen. Glaurung the Dragon led an army of Balrogs and orcs, ending the Siege of Angband. The sons of Finarfin suffered most under the attack. Angrod and Aegnor were slain, together with many of the House of Bëor. The armies of Hithlum were driven back to Ered Wethrin, yet could hold position on the mountains. Most of the east marches were also taken. Celegorm and Curufin fled to Nargothrond. Maedhros could keep the fort of the Himring. Yet Glaurung went through Maglor's Gap, after which he could destroy all of Thargelion. Caranthir joined forces with Amrod, Amras and the Green Elves to stop the orc invasion. Fingolfin heard about the fate of Finarfin's and Fëanor's sons. He then thought the Noldor were destroyed. In despair he rode to the gates of Angband, where he challenged Morgoth himself. In the fight that followed, Fingolfin could wound Morgoth seven times. Yet in the end he grew tired and fell. Just before he died, the Noldor king could cut off Morgoth's foot. Barahir and his people fought a hard battle in Dorthonion, until they were rooted out. Only the woman and children fled. Sauron could take over Minas Tirith, which, until then, had been controlled by Orodreth. Thus Morgoth gained the western pass, allowing his orcs to roam further into Beleriand. At Brethil the Haladin fought bravely, by that keeping the orcs at bay with the help of Beleg Strongbow. Amongst them also Húrin and Huor fought. They got separated however, and were chased until the Sirion. They were saved by Thorondor and brought to Gondolin by air. They remained a full year, learning much. But as they longed for their own people, and they didn't know the way to Gondolin, king Turgon allowed them to leave. King Turgon realized the battle against Morgoth couldn't be won without aid. He sent many messengers to sail the western seas, in search of the Valar. Though nobody ever reached the destination. Morgoth feared the hidden realms of Nargothrond and Gondolin. He withdrew his orcs, to enstrengthen himself again. When he attacked again, Fingon could win only with the aid of Círdan's ships.[/color]
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Post by Androga Erindalant on Aug 12, 2009 14:30:03 GMT -6
Questions: Would the war have been different if Fingolfin had launched it first?
Why did Fingolfin rode out to challenge Morgoth? Did he stand a chance to win? What must he have thought?
Why do Barahir and the people of Bëor remained in Dorthonion, a hopeless situation?
Why did the Valar make it impossible for the messengers to reach them?
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 29, 2009 13:32:21 GMT -6
Hullo, Androga
I'll try the first two questions:
1. Would the war have been different if Fingolfin had launched it first? (my emphasis)
This particular battle might have gone better for the Elves and their Men, had they assumed the initiative, rather than waiting for Morgoth's next onslaught -- but, the war itself would still have gone against the forces of the West. The war was a built in, pre-destined affair, meant to go against the exiled Elves. The great losses they would sustain in this contest against Morgoth were, I think, a chastising punishment for the Elven rebellion in Valinor, and especially a punishment for the atrocities committed by the Noldor under Feanor's leadership (the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, the arrogant pride of Feanor and his sons, the abandonment of Fingolfin and the bulk of the Elves so that they had deadly difficulty in crossing the icy wastes of Helcaraxe, etc.). See Silmarillion p 88, hardback version.
2. Why did Fingolfin ride out to challenge Morgoth? Did he stand a chance to win? What must he have thought?
In ancient/ medieval times, personal combat between two champions (Achilles vrs Hector) was considered a most honourable way of settling differences so that the devastation of a full scale war might be averted. In other cases, battles were actually started by such individual combats which served to inspire the rank and file who witnessed the courage/ prowess of the champions. In Fingolfin's case, I think it quite obvious that this was not a ritual combat designed to prevent or end a war -- had Fingolfin won, a new Dark Lord, Sauron perhaps, would simply have continued the war; nor was this personal combat meant to be a grand spectacle to enthuse the other Elves and Men, as Fingolfin rode out alone. Tolkien does give us a glimpse into Fingolfin's mind at this point:
"Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him." (Silmarillion, p. 153 hb version)
There seems to have been an element of berserk fury and "suicidal" despair in Fingolfin's challenge. Certain that his cause was lost, was he actually courting death? I do not think he really believed that he could defeat, or "kill" one of the Valar, but, in attempting this impossible task, was he relieving his own deep angst and crushing anxiety by seeking an honourable death? At least some good came of this death, Morgoth was maimed, (I don't believe Morgoth's foot was actually severed, but he was permanently lamed) and "embarassed" before his own doors and his people. And, if JRRT has it right here, never again in this war did Morgoth go out himself to fight. (Silmarillion, p. 153 hb ver.)
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 1, 2009 6:18:52 GMT -6
Talking about Achilles and Hector, Achilles dragged Hector's body back to his camp which was an insult to Hector's memory and his father, Priam. Priam had to sneak into the camp and beg Achilles for his son's body.
However, the war still went on for years. Granted in the beginning of the Troy movie (starring Brad Pitt) there was a battle that Achilles ended by facing one man and defeating him but that wasn't the case in the big Trojan War. It just seemed to inflame anger and cause more fighting.
Why would Fingolfin think Morgoth's Lieutenant Sauron would accept defeat and go merrily on his way if Fingolfin had defeated Morgoth? Why would anyone trust an evil force to follow the rules?
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 3, 2009 10:51:51 GMT -6
Hmm, perhaps Menelaus and Paris/ Alexander would be a closer representation of the "dueling champions" who seek to prevent a wider battle? Had not the gods intervened to save Paris, Menelaus would have killed him, gotten Helen back, and everyone (presumably) would have gone home -- no war, alas, no heroic poetry either!
RE Stormrider's: "Why would Fingolfin think Morgoth's Lieutenant Sauron would accept defeat and go merrily on his way if Fingolfin had defeated Morgoth? Why would anyone trust an evil force to follow the rules?" (my emphasis)
Another Tolkien use of dueling champions is found in LOTR appendices where the Last King of Gondor (until Aragorn returned), Earnil, rode off to fight the High Nazgul at Minas Morgul, and was treacherously slain. So, evil creatures could, at least later in the Third Age, ignore the rules of championship dueling. What I find interesting about the Fingolfin-Morgoth fight is the fact that Morgoth even bothered to fight at all. Apparently some things were considered "traditional," maybe "sacred," and still had some binding force even on those who had turned to evil? Even Gollum had trouble breaking the sacred riddle-game rules, so maybe Morgoth felt he had to answer the challenge? Morgoth was trying to "look good" in front of his followers, and apparently, evil or not, the chivalrous code of personal combat still meant something to him and them; but matters have changed nowadays: can you see George W. Bush fighting alone, hand-to-hand against Osama Bin Ladin?
Also interesting is the fact that Morgoth, so far as I understand it, did not actually try to cheat in this contest, there was no ambush from his Balrogs or Orcs, no appeal to underhanded magics -- he simply relied on his great personal size/ strength to beat Fingolfin. Does this show some shred of "honour" still remained in Morgoth's character this late in his career?
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 9, 2009 5:43:27 GMT -6
perhaps Morgoth was a better man than Sauron! Being a Valar might be the reason--perhaps there was some honor left in Morgoth. Good reasoning.
sorry, my answer is short I fractured my left wrist on Monday and I am hunting and pecking with my right hand.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 9, 2009 9:53:36 GMT -6
Ouch!
Sorry to hear about the injury -- hope it heals up quickly!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 9, 2009 13:35:55 GMT -6
surgery tomorrow at 11:00am central time. no cast -- they will put a pin in my hand and one in my arm and an eternal bar on the outside contecting to both pins and stretching the bones apart so the bones drop back in place.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 10, 2009 12:53:07 GMT -6
Double ouch! Sounds serious, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
Best wishes, Speedy Recovery!!!
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 21, 2009 9:59:12 GMT -6
RE 4. Why did the Valar make it impossible for the messengers to reach them?
I have never been satisfied with Tolkien's portrayal of the Valar and their interactions with the physical realms of Arda. In his early writings, where the Valar are strongly associated with the Gods of the Olympic/ Norse tradition, the actions of the Valar make some sense. These Gods were based on human models, they could be friendly one moment and hostile the next, they had human passions (hunger, sex drives, greed, pride, petty hatreds, jealousies, hurt feeling, etc, etc) and so holding grudges would just be a part of the nature of these deities. Feanor defied the Valar-Gods, he and all those who sided with him must be punished, so the Gods withold their divine favour and protection from ALL of Middle-earth. But, what about the other creatures who still lived there, the Twilight and Dark Elves, the Dwarves, Men, the thinking-speaking "animals" and "plants," and all the rest of the life forms who had nothing to do with the revolt of the Noldor? Should the protective interaction of the Valar be withdrawn from them as well as the Noldor? Here the pagan-based Valar model would make sense: the Gods could -- just like human beings -- become so angry that they would lose all sense of proportion and fairplay, they could easily punish both the guilty and the innocent.
But when Tolkien (inappropriately in my opinion) decided to "Christianize" his original Middle-earth narratives (sometime after 1950), all of his pagan-God types were demoted to Judaeo-Christian-Islamic Angelic Beings, mere messengers of the One God, and, as such, they should now behave according to Christian concepts -- they should be merciful beings untainted with the baser human characteristics of greed, selfish-anger, pride, and a blind desire to seek vengeance. In this situation, the actions of the Valar seem unjust, unrealistic, and very un-Christian. An "inappropriate" type of ethic has been forced upon the original narrative, and it simply does not fit here. Tolkien, would have to alter his old tales greatly to remove this glaring inconsistency. Alas, Tolkien never had enough time in his life to make the new Christianized ideals of the Valar consistent with his early mythology, so we are left with jealous, petty-minded Christian-Valar who abandon ALL Middle-earth to the unwholesome influences of Morgoth just to punish the rebellious Noldor.
As part of this vindictive punishment, the Elves and Men are not even allowed to send messengers to Valinor to plead their cause and beg forgiveness/ assistance. Thousands of Elves, not all of them rebellious Noldor, die. Thousands of "innocent" Men, Dwarves, Trees, and Animals are reduced to misery by Morgoth, or simply die because the Valar, angry with the Noldor refuse to effectively aid the "Good Folk" of Middle-earth. Not my idea of "proper" Christian-Angelic behaviour.
We also have another problem here -- the Eagles. In this chapter, the Eagles, the Eyes of Manwe, are fairly active in assisting the Elves and Men. Fingolfin's body is rescued by Eagles, and Huor and Hurin were carried by Eagles to Gondolin. So why not have the Noldor lords get directly in touch with the Valar through these Eagles? Instead, the Elves try to send "slow-boat" embassies to Valinor, attempts which the Veils of the Valar foil, leaving many of the Elven crews to find watery graves (Sil hb ver p. 159). So, Tolkien uses the Eagles when it suits his plot purposes, but does not use them otherwise, even when it would be reasonable for the characters in his tales to simply make an appeal to these winged lords.
Tolkien (Imho) should have left things alone, a non-Christian ethos for the Valar would remove all these inconsistencies -- the Valar, as pagan Norse Gods, can legitimately be expected to act in a proud, hostile, vindictive fashion, they could fairly be expected to "snub" all Elven attempts to seek help/ forgiveness, they could even be expected to punish the innocent along with the guilty -- but, from Christian Angels, well, I think we expect more fairness, more justice from them?
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 22, 2009 5:49:18 GMT -6
I have not particularly liked the Valars' decisions and actions either. As you commented above:But even our Christian God turned his back on Adam and Eve and all their innocent (and not-so innocent)offspring when He cast them out of Eden after eating the forbidden fruit. However, He always interceded on the side of His chosen people against their enemies and talked personally to some of His prophets. And he sent His Son to walk among them and die for all of our sins.
However, by Christianizing his mythology, I only see that JRRT's provision for help were the Istari that he sent to Middle-earth to guide the people in the war against Sauron...but that was so much later on. Why did all the Children of Ilúvatar have to suffer thru Melkor/Morgoth's rampage in Middle-earth? It seems even Ulmo and Tulkas turned their backs on the Children. The Elves still loved and honored Elbereth despite her lack of support. Even God made provion by way of prayer so you can express your remorse and repentance but the Valar just didn't want to be reached!
Yes, the Eagles would have been a perfect way to get back to Valinor and plead their case! However, from converting to Christian standards for his story, JRRT made the Eagles more wild and unapproachable except for the Istari (at least for Gandalf). But the Eagles still understood evil vs good and knew which side was good. Perhps the message JRRT was trying to get across by the Valar being unapproachable was that the Children had to keep trying against all odds. Finally Eärendil and Elwing made it!
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 22, 2009 10:16:00 GMT -6
Good point. Yeah, the Hebraic God of the Old Testament seems, in many ways to be quite different in character and modes of operation from the God of the New Testament. The OT God (YHWH) seems similar to the Olympian/ Norse Gods: "jealous," inciting people to violence (Moses and his stalwarts against the "Calf-Worshipping" Hebrews; Israelites egged on to slaughter Canaanites), possessing a punitive mentality, etc. Maybe there is less difference than I was thinking, maybe YHWH also shows human style emotions, motivations "shortcomings?" He certainly loses his temper a lot, just as Thor and Odin do.
But for the Christian era, I believe the concept of God has altered from the old "jealous," warring-tribal deity of the Hebrews to a predominant view of God as being merciful, compassionate and fair in dealing out justice, and (at least through prayer) always available to listen to petitions for redress and succour.
This makes good sense to me, without the dramatic tension caused by their long struggles against overwhelming Evil, The Silmarillion tales would be far less entertaining to us readers. One subplot here becomes the attempt of the Elves and Men to find some way to reach the Valar, and present their case for divine intervention in the affairs of Middle-earth. Finally, with the power of the redeemed Silmaril, Earendil achieves this difficult quest and gets the Valar to relent and take a more active interest in the Mortal Lands. Makes for good reading!
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