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Post by fanuidhol on Jul 4, 2016 10:09:57 GMT -6
Tolkien wrote the poem "The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late" to "explain" the nursery rhyme "Hey Diddle Diddle", just as E.H.K-H. wrote "Puss Cat Mew" to "explain" that nursery rhyme. I didn't know of any other examples of this type of "explaining" story until I started this post. But, a google search turned up: www.gutenberg.org/files/5312/5312-h/5312-h.htm Mother Goose in Prose written by L Frank Baum in 1901. Tolkien's "Man on the Moon Came Down Too Soon" from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is certainly another example of Nursery Rhyme explanation story, a sort of etiological tale to explain the rhyme, for this set of similar rhymes: The man in the moon Came tumbling down, And asked the way to Norwich. He went by the South, And he burnt his mouth, With eating cold pease porridge. and The man in the moon came down too soon To inquire the way to Norridge; The man in the South, he burnt his mouth With eating cold plum porridge. Incidentally, Baum has his own version of the story written in the above book. I googled Tolkien and "The man on the moon" to read the poem again before making a comment. I read a blog post that I liked even though they mistitled the post: wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/2000/12/man-in-moon-came-down-too-soon-j-r-r.html Says it better than I could have myself. Part 2 coming...
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 4, 2016 12:03:21 GMT -6
Wow! Thanks Fan -- this is a delightful tale, done up in typical English, fairy-tale fashion -- reminds me of The Hobbit in its tone, its use of a narrator-guide to present the action and make suitable comments as the story unfolds. I am wondering if Tolkien was influenced by the fairies in this text, their use of verse as a normal mode of discourse -- reminds me of the Elves (sometimes near nonsensical) rhymes when the Dwarves first come to Rivendell and Bilbo becomes enchanted by all the singing. I think this use of song as "normal discourse" is also evident in the chapters where the hobbits interact with Bombadil and Goldberry.
LOL, yeah, Stormy, the kids in these tales do seem to be victimized quite a lot, wonder if we continue this tradition with our "witless teenager" motif, where the teens wander out into the wilderness and are pounced upon by Freddy, Jason, or a hook-wielding savage in a rain coat…
RE Stormy: "What kind of writing style is this? I know there are different types but I never took any classes in school that defined writing styles."
I am not sure what sort of genre/ style such tales fall under, they certainly are "admonitory" -- bits of warning given out to help the protagonist(s) get through difficult and trying times. I've read that the ogres and witches in the Grimms' tales are meant to be us humans, grown ups who prey on innocent children, and the stories try to inform kids of the "stranger-danger," and brutal parent syndromes...
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Post by fanuidhol on Jul 4, 2016 14:29:35 GMT -6
Yes, the story reminded me of a Grimm-er Hobbit, but not just in the narrator guide tone. The section of the tale in which Joe Brown is the instigator of the argument amongst the ogres, made me think of the Troll scene where Gandalf, also, instigates an argument in order to save Bilbo and dwarves. It reminded me so strongly of that, that I overlayed Gandalf on top of Joe in my mind. I must admit, I hadn't thought of the verse speaking? singing? fairies as reminiscent of the Elves in H., but, rather more like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, though I should re-read some of those passages and see.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 4, 2016 14:55:48 GMT -6
Fan, that crossed my mind, too: Joe making the ogres argue with each other as Gandalf did with his trolls. I had thought Joe was going to continue it more with the ogres and dwarves and was disappointed he didnt.
Andy, regarding the fairies giving instructions on how to proceed: like Grimms tales, some trickery always tempts the "hero" to break from the instructions and get into more trouble. Bilbo didnt exactly have elvish instructions but he seemed to keep getting into more trouble with the Trolls because he tried to prove he could be a useful burglar by trying to pickpocket one of the trolls.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 17, 2021 14:53:13 GMT -6
Not sure where to put this little nugget, at best a "minor influence" on JRRT's Middle-earth corpus, but, at least, a new one to me. We have elsewhere/ elsewhen on TR pointed out the passages From "MacBeth" concerning the "walking woods" of Dunsany Forest as a potential archetype of the mobile Ents and Huorns. While re-reading the Argonautica of Apollonius of Rhodes (circa 250 BCE) I came across a much earlier account of a "walking woods:" First then let us make mention of Orpheus, he it was, whom, on a day, as rumour saith, Calliope bare beside the peak of Pimpleia, her pledge of love to Thracian Oegar. He [Orpheus], men say, did charm the stubborn rocks upon the hills and the river streams by the strains of his minstrelsy. And wild oaks, memorials yet of that his singing, which he had led right on from Pieria by the spell of his lyre, marched in ordered ranks, each behind his fellow, to range themselves, with all their leaves, upon the fringe of the Thracian shore. Apollonius Rhodius Book I, p. 4 Two points: 1. The basic concept of trees achieving an animalic type of ready movement. 2. The use of song to set the trees of Orpheus to marching, and in Tolkien's version, the use of Entish song and music to lead the Huorns off on their march to battle. In other words, the powerful magic of music... www.google.com/books/edition/The_Argonautica_of_Apollonius_Rhodius/JTxgAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Apollonius+Jason+and+the+Argonauts&pg=PA48&printsec=frontcover
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