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Post by Andorinha on Feb 16, 2011 2:20:55 GMT -6
Bingo, jackpot on the research, it has brought to light several excellent "scholarly" articles on this precise topic. A grand overview of the Celtic influences in Tolkien's mythology may be found online at: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_2_117/ai_n16676591/?tag=content;col1It seems all of us posting here are working along the same lines as Dimitra Fimi, whose 16 page essay is a real treasure trove, "Mad" Elves and "elusive beauty": some Celtic strands of Tolkien's mythology. I'm half way through this one, rich stuff, will probably spend the rest of the week analyzing Fimi's points and then trying to smooth them into our own interpretations.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 16, 2011 7:21:59 GMT -6
Andorinha: I started reading your link by Dimitra Fimi and noticed this: Fimi says after being urged by Joseph Wright a reknown German philologist to "Go in for Celtic, lad; there's money in it", Tolkien purchased a Welsh grammar book and studied it on his own. It was medieval Welsh and he learned it well enough to help him translate the "Mabinogion".
With my lack of knowledge on European history, if I understand this correctly, Welsh is the language of the Celts. Then this is a big influence on Tolkien's writing!
Fimi also says: Fredegarh, you've pointed out the Anglo-Saxon content in our BOLT discussion.
So even though Tolkien was very knowledgeable in the Celtic influences of history, he did not feel it was really an ENGLISH influence. So even though he has some Celtic influence in his tale, he wanted to bring it back to an Anglo-Saxon flavor which he considered more ENGLISH than BRITISH.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 16, 2011 18:55:23 GMT -6
Hi, Stormrider. You picked up on some of the important points Fimi makes.
Yeah, Welsh is the celtic language of the "principality" of Wales, the south western portion of Great Britain. Cornwall, south-south western Britain may have remnants of Cornish, another Celtic tongue with differences from Welsh. The Celtic language of Scotland is related to Welsh, but differs, maybe, even more than French does to Spanish. There is also a Celtic language, Breton, spoken in northwest France (Brittany), and yet another Celtic language for the Irish.
As you point out, Stormrider, Tolkien had a very good control over just the Welsh version of the Celtic tongues, he tried to learn Irish, but did not get far with it, and later said it was a harsh, un-pronounceable tongue... Spoilt grapes?
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Fimi also has a study in a journal called Tolkien Studies, I cannot access the essay directly but I do have a publisher's blurb about it that shows by the percentage of his personal library, just how much he studied Celtic material:
Fimi, Dimitra. Tolkien's "'Celtic' type of legends": Merging Traditions in Tolkien Studies - Volume 4, 2007, pp. 51-71
West Virginia University Press
Dimitra Fimi - Tolkien's "'Celtic' type of legends": Merging Traditions - Tolkien Studies 4 Tolkien Studies 4 (2007) 51-71 Muse Search Journals This Journal Contents Tolkien's "'Celtic' Type of Legends": Merging Traditions Dimitra Fimi 1. Tolkien's Celtic Library After J.R.R. Tolkien's death, a number of books from his personal collection ended up in two Oxford libraries. A small number are in the Bodleian Library, within the Tolkien manuscript collection, in the section "Tolkien E16." A considerably larger number are to be found in the Library of the English Faculty. According to the library's own classification system, the books are shelved in section V, which is described as "Tolkien's Celtic Library." An initial reaction to this description might be surprise. Tolkien's dislike for "things Celtic," strongly expressed in his much-quoted 1937 letter to Stanley Unwin (Letters 26), is well known and could be taken as a definitive discouragement to research in Tolkien's Celtic sources. It is only recently that scholarship has attempted a serious evaluation of the Celtic elements of Tolkien's inspiration (see Burns; Fimi; Flieger Interrupted Music). Nevertheless, Tolkien's "Celtic Library" holds exciting revelations, if only for its sheer size. Over three hundred books originally owned by Tolkien are held in the Bodleian and the English Faculty Library, of which approximately a third belong to the discipline of Celtic Studies.
From all the work Fimi has done, it seems that Tolkien was VERY heavily influenced by Celtic themes, languages, styles.
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Fredegarh, Fimi's "Mad Elves and Elusive Beauty..." article (can be read in full online at the URL above) mentions some quotes from the 1983 published book that Tolkien wrote earlier as separate essays, The Monsters and The Critics, in which Fimi points out the English nationalistic, racist theme we discussed above, and says Tolkien was quite aware of this "ethnic" material. Fimi likewise, mentions Tolkien was aware that the stereotypes he sometimes used about the Celtic culture/ literary tradition, were not really valid. Nonetheless he still used them!
Fimi also has a section addressing precisely what Tolkien meant by the "bright, colourful" aspects of Celtic myths. Apparently he did not use the term "bright" metaphorically, as I was doing, but JRRT was "complaining" that Celtic myths featured men and women with "too bright hair," fairy dogs" with bright red ears, etc. Supposedly, according to Fimi, "The King of the Green Dozen" story by Tolkien deliberately used this "Celtic colour brightness" by having its protagonist family all have bright green hair. LOL, if Fimi is right, this puts quite a different slant on the interpretation of Celtic myths being "bright and colourful!"
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Feb 18, 2011 1:22:53 GMT -6
Hi, Stormrider. You picked up on some of the important points Fimi makes. Yeah, Welsh is the celtic language of the "principality" of Wales, the south western portion of Great Britain. Cornwall, south-south western Britain may have remnants of Cornish, another Celtic tongue with differences from Welsh. The Celtic language of Scotland is related to Welsh, but differs, maybe, even more than French does to Spanish. There is also a Celtic language, Breton, spoken in northwest France (Brittany), and yet another Celtic language for the Irish. From what I understand, there are two branches of Celtic languages -- the Brythonic language(s) I mentioned earlier, spoken by the ancient Britons, evolved into Welsh, Cornish, Breton, and Cumbric (which is now extinct). And the Goidelic languages, spoken by the Gaels, became the languages of the Irish, the Scottish, and the Isle of Man. I haven't read through that whole article yet, Andorinha, but it is fascinating! I can't believe I never made the connection between the Noldor and the Tuatha De Danann, the semi-divine race of Irish mythology. There are a lot of parallels. A mystical race in exile, invading a land they considered theirs by birthright. The burning of the ships. A king who loses a hand. A diminishing of the race into the fairy folk of later folklore. It seems to me that Tolkien was being somewhat disingenuous when he claimed to reject all things Celtic. There is a major influence at work here. I'm also intrigued by the quote from Tolkien (presumably from a part of The Book of Lost Tales I haven't gotten to yet) that claims the Anglo-Saxons knew the true history of the fairy folk, and that the Iras (Irish) and Wealhas (Welsh) told garbled stories of them. Kind of a bold claim, considering that A. This "true" history is mostly stuff Tolkien made up and B. I'm not positive which came first, the Celtic Daoine Sidhe fairy race or the Norse/Anglo-Saxon Elves. Would be interesting to look into. I wonder if that's just Tolkien's English pride again (or conversely, my Celtic pride trying to challenge him. LOL!). Actually, now that I think of it, he may have a point. The Daoine Sidhe legends have them as descendants of the Tuatha so they may have been a later tradition, a gradual transformation of the Irish gods to the fairy folk. The Norse were presumably telling stories of their Elves before this.
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 18, 2011 20:34:05 GMT -6
Fredegarh, thanks for the data on the Celtic language groups, Brythonic and Goidelic -- gonna have to remember them.
I think Tolkien managed to "fool" quite a few of his readers, with all his protestations against the Celtic element in his works. Because of this, as Fimi says, not much study has been done on the true impact of Celtic material. Most of us readers were focussed on Nordic, Anglo-Saxon, and maybe even Finnish connections. But the more deeply we go into the question of Celtic influence, the more Celtic connections we seem to find.
You put it very well indeed: "It seems to me that Tolkien was being somewhat disingenuous when he claimed to reject all things Celtic. There is a major influence at work here." (Fredegarh reply 18, Not. Club Papers, emphasis mine because I really think it is a major influence!)
LOL, you've got me really grinning here -- RE Fredegarh's: "Kind of a bold claim, considering that A. This "true" history is mostly stuff Tolkien made up and B. I'm not positive which came first, the Celtic Daoine Sidhe fairy race or the Norse/Anglo-Saxon Elves."
Absolutely, Fredegarh, since most of the "true history" is "manufactured" by JRRT, and he gets to act as the judge of its validity (at least in his narratives) we, as interested but not expert readers, are at his "mercy." It will require, as I think Fimi and Verlyn Flieger are doing, a sharp re-investigation of Tolkien's texts to tease out the Celtic elements, and show just how greatly he is indebted to Celtic traditions.
As to the precedence of "Celtic" vrs Nordic traditions, this again is a debatable point. There are some studies that have tried to find the roots of Celtic, Germanic, Hindu mythologies way back in some presumed Indo-European root tradition, but we just don't have the documents to tie this down. Likewise, the Celtic and Germanic traditions go back no further than Roman documents, and these were not very interested in the myths of foreigners, so for early times we have no idea about the existence of Elves, fairies, giants, trolls, goblins, etc. A thousand years later, and we still don't get much more than re-worked bits and pieces from the medieval, Christian compilers. No way I can think of, that we would be able to tell which came first, Alf or Sidhe...
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 25, 2011 23:17:37 GMT -6
Minor point but that's not Celtic. The tiny, gauzy winged fairies are mostly a Victorian English tradition, made popular by storybooks and artwork of that era. In actual Celtic mythology, the fairies are mostly human size. The Irish fairy race, the Daoine Sidhe ("theena shee"), was a tall, noble, demi-godlike species. More like Tolkien's Elves in fact. One could argue that that's another Celtic influence in his work (especially given the Welsh flavor of Sindarin). But more likely, he based his Elves on the Elves of Norse mythology, who were also of human-like dimensions. (cf Fredegarh, Notion Club Papers, Reply #14, 2-15-11, emphasis mine) Thanks for the correction, Fredegarh! As I was going through some of the material in BOLT-2, I came up with a bit more regarding the "diminutive" Elves of Tolkien's abandoned tales: It is said several times in the Lost Tales that the Elves of the ancient days were of greater bodily stature than they aftrwards became. ... The diminishing in the stature of the Elves of later times is very explicitly related to the coming of Men. ... 'Men spread and thrive, and the Elves of the Great Lands fade. As Men's stature grows theirs diminishes'; ... 'ever as Men wax more powerful and numerous so the fairies fade and grow small and tenuous, filmy and transparent, but Men larger and more dense and gross. At last Men, or almost all, can no longer see the fairies.' (BOLT - 2, paperback version p. 332) Tolkien seems to have played about with various heights/ weights for both his Men and Elves, in some schemes the Elves were larger than Men, in others, as the one quoted above, the elves "fade," diminish in size, becoming more like the Victorian Fairies, of Thumbellina-size. But, maybe you know, Fredegarh, are the "wee folk," perhaps Leprechauns, derived from the Daoine Sidhe?* This might give a parallel tradition for both Celtic and English fairies as once having been "man-sized," but later greatly diminished? Later, after the "Lost Tales" material, I think Tolkien became repulsed by the idea of his Elves "diminishing" to leprechaun or even shorter stature. But maybe something of this survives in the Hobbits, as a diminished stature folk, who will gradually fade out of history, so that in the Fourth Age (and later times) they will be but rarely seen? So, I'm not sure if this "diminished Elven stature," and their "fading" into gauzy-like transparency, is to be seen as a Celtic, or an English phenomenon? __________________________ * For example, one internet source, apparently not a scholarly work, gives the following : "Daoine Sidhe One of the smaller forms of fairy, also known as daoine beaga or 'little people'. They are great warriors." "The Banshee The banshee (originally bean sidhe) was a female spirit, possibly associated with the tradition of singing laments at funerals. The banshee would sing on the death of a family member and many families had their own personal banshee. Later on the banshee’s wail was said to foreshadow a death." LOL, I'll have to do some research here as well. I take it sidhe = fairy folk? But there are many different types of such sidhe? LOL, so where do the leprechauns fit into all this? bestuff.com/stuff/sidhe________________________ Another, not exactly academic source: It is thought by those learned in Faerie lore that Leprechauns are descended from the Daoine Sidhe, (pronounced theena shee), Faerie persons of Ireland, of the Tuatha de Danann (pro. tootha day danan) or people of the Goddess Dana, who were in actuality, gods, diminished in stature and influence now, that were once worshipped by very ancient peoples. When one queries any three Leprechauns as to the truth of this story, one gets three different answers, for they can be secretive and also enjoy their jokes. (my emphasis) isabellaleague.com/ShoemakersofIreland.aspx_________________ Wikipedia King Finvarra: After the magical race the Milesians defeated the Tuatha Dé Danann, the Tuatha decided to leave. There was a group led by Finvarra who elected to remain in Ireland. They were the Daoine Sidhe. Finvarra negotiated a truce where they were allowed to remain in Ireland as long as they remained underground. There they lived among the trees underground and built great cities. A magical spirit race, who affected the affairs of men above ground, they eventually became known as the fairy folk. They were respected and feared, and no new structure was built without first asking the fairy folk for permission, or for their assistance and guidance. This gradually fell out of practice with the onslaught of modern civilization.
This "dwindling" of the Tuatha Dé Danann (thought to be the gods of Irish mythology) to the fairies of folklore represents an adaptation of earlier pagan traditions to the later Christianized Ireland. A similar transition can be seen in other myths around the world (such as the Elves of Norse mythology who begin as human-sized beings and transition to tiny forest dwellers in later European folklore). (emphasis mine) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finvarra____________________ Wikipedia: Leprechaun - leipreachán) is a type of fairy in Irish folklore, usually taking the form of an old man, clad in a red or green coat, who enjoys partaking in mischief. Like other fairy creatures, leprechauns have been linked to the Tuatha Dé Danann of Irish mythology.[1] The Leprechauns spend all their time busily making shoes, and store away all their coins in a hidden pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. If ever captured by a human, the Leprechaun has the magical power to grant three wishes in exchange for their release. Popular depiction shows the Leprechaun as being no taller than a small child,[2] with a beard and hat, although they may originally have been perceived as the tallest of the mound-dwellers (the Tuatha Dé Danann). (My emphasis.) Wikipedia Daoine Sidhe - In folk belief and practice, the aos sí are often propitiated with offerings, and care is taken to avoid angering or insulting them. Often they are not named directly, but rather spoken of as "The Good Neighbors," "The Fair Folk," or simply "The Folk". The most common names for them, aos sí, aes sídhe, daoine sídhe (singular duine sídhe) and daoine sìth mean, literally, "people of peace". The aos sí are generally described as stunningly beautiful, though they can also be terrible and hideous.
Aos sí are sometimes seen as fierce guardians of their abodes – whether a fairy hill, a fairy ring, a special tree (often a hawthorn) or a particular loch or wood. The Gaelic Otherworld is seen as closer at the times of dusk and dawn, therefore this is a special time to the aos sí, as are some festivals such as Samhain, Beltane and Midsummer.
The sídhe: abodes of the aes sídhe
As part of the terms of their surrender to the Milesians the Tuatha Dé Danann agreed to retreat and dwell underground in the sídhe (modern Irish: sí; Scottish Gaelic: sìth; Old Irish síde, singular síd), the hills or earthen mounds that dot the Irish landscape. In some later poetry each tribe of the Tuatha Dé Danann was given its own mound._____________ Hmm, there seems to be quite a mixture of sidhe folk, I'm not sure what the proper distinctions might be. Wikipedia seems to class the Tuatha De Danann with the "mound-folk," sidhe, and to derive the leprechauns from them, and the Daoine Sidhe. So were all of the sidhe eventually "diminished" in stature?
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Feb 26, 2011 2:47:32 GMT -6
This "dwindling" of the Tuatha Dé Danann (thought to be the gods of Irish mythology) to the fairies of folklore represents an adaptation of earlier pagan traditions to the later Christianized Ireland. A similar transition can be seen in other myths around the world (such as the Elves of Norse mythology who begin as human-sized beings and transition to tiny forest dwellers in later European folklore). [/i] (emphasis mine)[/quote] LOL, that section you emphasized was added to the article by me! I use the screen name "Rajah" most places. To answer your questions -- As you've gathered, there are various stages of Celtic mythology and a gradual dwindling of the characters. The Tuatha De Danann (the gods) become immortal heroes and magicians when Christian authors rewrite the stories. At the end of said stories, the Tuatha are defeated by the Milesians, a race of men from Spain, and retreat into the Sidhe -- hollow mounds in the Earth ("Sidhe" technically refers to their dwelling places, not the race, but modern writers don't usually make the distinction). There, they become the Daoine Sidhe ("People of the Mounds" or "People of Peace"), the original human-size fairy folk. The Daoine Sidhe, in turn, inspire the stories of various other kinds of fairies and "little people" like the leprechauns, pixies, etc. The theory I've come across in most books and articles is that the smaller size is a side effect of the gradual Christianization and secularization of the myths. The Sidhe-folk had dwindled in power and importance in the people's minds so they became associated with a dwindled physical size as well. This dwindling seems to happen in almost every mythology. The Welsh strain of Celtic myth has their own Daoine Sidhe-like race, the Tylwyth Teg ("Fair Folk") who become little people in later stories. The Elves of Norse mythology start as human size but become miniature in the later English/Saxon folklore, like "The Elves and the Shoemaker" and the stories of brownies and house-elves. So yes, there is a parallel tradition in the Celtic and English fairy legends. But the dwindling idea seems to be universal. The more cutesy fairy aspects (wings, a gauzy ephemeral quality, spreading dewdrops and frost) come from the Victorian era of England, as far as I know. Presumably, artists of the time added the wings because the small size of the fairies reminded them of insects. And the cutesy tone came from the fact that, by this point, fairy stories were considered the domain of children. I hope that clarified the dwindling and how the three races (Tuatha De Danann, Daoine Sidhe, and Little People) are connected. I feel as though I've rambled on about the fairies in multiple threads on this board. But I love this stuff!
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 27, 2011 0:07:31 GMT -6
LOL, indeed! That is remarkable, well, the matter is settled then, and by no less an authority than "Rajah!" All of this, at the current stage of the discussion, tends to reinforce my feeling that Tolkien developed his own conception of Middle-earth "Elven" people in response to his readings in a common literature of myths, folkloric tales, and fairy stories that owed just as much to the "Celtic" tradition as to the Old English. And thank you for giving me a clearer picture of the development of the Irish branch of Celtic mythological creatures! Very helpful. Hmm, this has me searching now for cross-cultural comparisons, trying to remember whether the Aztecs, Hopi, Hindic, Japanese people ever went in for "fairies," and whether or not, after the coming of a dominant religion there might have been a similar episode of fading/ diminishment producing a "wee-folk"... For Tolkien's Middle-earth, I think he starts out in BOLT-1, and BOLT-2 meaning both terms, "fading" and "diminishing" in quite a literal sense -- his Elves grow smaller in size, and eventually become almost transparent. With his final version, however, I think he means both terms more metaphorically, as I interpret Galadriel's words to Frodo: "Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail [to destroy the One Ring], then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten." ( FOTR, paperback version, "The Mirror of Galadriel," p.472) "Ramble on, Sir, I'm "luvin' it," too!
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 27, 2011 8:03:20 GMT -6
Andorinha and Fredegarh: Yes, please do, both of you, keep rambling on. I haven't delved into any of this ever and it is very interesting to read what you both have to say and ponder it all.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Feb 27, 2011 16:32:49 GMT -6
Glad you guys are enjoying this thread as well. My concern about rambling was more to do with the fact that I discussed the Celtic gods/Sidhe/fairies transition on other threads (in the "On Fairy Stories" section of the board, for instance) and I didn't want to sound like a broken record.
As far as cross-cultural comparisons, I'm not as familiar with some of the cultures you mentioned, Andorinha. I know that Latin American countries have stories of little people called Duende, but I'm not sure whether those derived from earlier beliefs of the Aztecs, Mayans, etc. or were simply influenced by Europe. As for Japanese and East Indian cultures, I don't think there is as strong a transition in folklore, as there isn't the dramatic shift from paganism to Judeo-Christian traditions like we see in the West. No doubt their beliefs are a mix of earlier and later influences (early paganism blending with later Buddhism/Hinduism/Shintoism, etc.) but I'm not knowledgeable enough to trace the specifics.
In other news, I guess I really ought to read "The Notion Club Papers," as this thread has gone a completely different direction from what it was originally supposed to be. LOL!
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 27, 2011 23:39:54 GMT -6
No problem with repetitions, especially as I don't recall the first presentation. LOL, as I get older, I get ever more forgetful -- any way, its handy to have the material here for this discussion, saves us the trouble of paging-over to "On Fairy Stories," yeah, in addition to the forgetfulness, I'm also becoming increasingly lazy...
Actually, Freddie, I don't really view our rambles into the alternative "fairy myths" of Celtic and Teutonic literatures as being all that far from the central core of this topic. I have actually started The Notation Club Papers, and I found immediately that it was necessary, for my understanding of this text, to have a good deal of the backstory, including the various types of fairies (Celtic vrs Anglo-Saxon-Teutonic vrs Tolkien's own schemes) and the differing cultural visions of "faerie."
For example, all the critical reviews I have found, (see Fimi especially) make much of the Celtic base of TNCP; and I find it rather new and strange to me, that the Atlantis-based, Numenorean material in this text, has not been primarily, or solely connected with Plato and the Classical Greek tradition. Rather, after a quick nod in Plato's direction for creating the kernel of the Atlantis mythos, most writers seem to leap into discussions of the Celtic connections, and emphasize Tolkien's debt to the Celtic "Voyages to the Other" motif, St Brendan etc.
So, it became important, for me, to understand that Tolkien, despite his frequent/ adamant attempts to disassociate himself and his writings from the Celtic, is actually seen by most modern critics (dealing strictly with TNCP) as being squarely within the Celtic mold. The general assumption being, if I've got it right, that TNCP is fundamentally based on Celtic rather than Classical Greek or even Teutonic-Nordic/ Anglo-Saxon systems of thought and literary expression.
As I said above, this is a revelation to me, and before continuing with an actual "reading and analysis" of the core text (The Notion Club Papers) I am certainly glad that we did sort of "ramble along," LOL! I think we've provided a good springboard here for our actual dive into the "Papers" themselves!
Just an aside, but, might it be possible to look at Tolkien's abandonment of TNCP, as partially influenced by his own increasing prejudice towards things Celtic, and his realization that this tale was heavily indebted to those "dratted" Celts? Maybe his attention was more easily drawn to the significantly Anglo-Saxon-Nordic flavour of his other great topic, LOTR? Of course the main reason he dropped TNCP, and his revisions of the Silmarillion material was his sudden (and somewhat money-influenced) decision to write a commercially acceptable sequel to The Hobbit, afterall, JRRT did have his publishers' pressure to contend with, LOL.
At any rate, I see our "rambles" as the necessary, preliminary steps toward the final goal of reading/ analyzing TNCP -- and besides being educational, they've been good fun!
Thanks Stormrider and Fredegarh!
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