Giants of Middle-earth

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

I mentioned this as a possible topic for our anniversary chat but we never got to it. As some of you know, I've been playing The Lord of the Rings Online. One of the species you can encounter in this game is a race of Giants, also called Jorthkyn. The name means "Earth-kin," in reference to the fact that Giants are usually children of the Earth-goddess in various mythologies. I found this fascinating as it's a somewhat controversial (and literal) interpretation of Tolkien's work.

Tolkien briefly mentions stone-giants in The Hobbit but we know barely anything about them, just that they flung rocks at each other in the Misty Mountains. The Encyclopedia of Arda talks about what we know of Tolkien's giants and offers a few theories:

www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/giants.html

To summarize that article, we're left with the question, did the giants actually exist or were they a superstition? There are three main theories:

1. They weren't real. Stone-flinging giants could be a myth brought on by rockslides, avalanches, or thunderstorms, a metaphor for the power of nature.

2. They could be a larger race of Men. If Hobbits are a smaller race related to Men, why not a larger one? Perhaps they're simply reclusive or unconcerned by the affairs of other races.

3. They're just Ents. "Ent," after all, is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "giant." And Ents did throw stones around in the attack on Isengard.

So what do you guys think? There's probably not enough material about Tolkien's giants to do further research but I was wondering if anyone had an opinion or favored one of these theories. I like the "larger race of Man" idea myself. Though I may just be biased because the humanoid Giants in the game are pretty cool-looking. Check 'em out:

lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Giant-kind

lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Giants

[Andorinha]

Thanks for the sources, Fredegahr, reading up on the "Giant" issue in Tolkien, will be back with my take on the matter.

Just in passing, I always saw the Stone Giants of the Hobbit as traditional, humanoid giants, like Jack and the Beanstalk. I see to recall, dimly, that there is a quote from Tolkien (maybe in The Letters?) that details this. Maybe one of the other members can recall this?

See what I can find... Hmmm, I think it was maybe Fanuidhol or Stormrider that mentioned this somewhere else?

[Stormrider]

The Annotated Hobbit chapter Over Hill and Under Hill after leaving Rivendell, the Dwarves, Bilbo, and Gandalf were huddled down for the night while a "thunder battle" raged.

When he (Bilbo) peeped out in the lightning-flashes, he saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out, and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below, or splintered into little bits with a bang.

As I read this passage, I never imagined that these were real people, but just some sort of "through-the-blinding-thunderstorm" illusion that Bilbo was seeing. You know, like the angels are bowling when you hear thunder. Tricks of the eye in the dark, with lighting reflecting off the raindrops, can cause you to see things that aren't there.

But if I had to take it literally and assume they were "real" and not an illusion Bilbo was seeing, I am sure I would have thought they were another breed of troll. Afterall, Trolls are pretty large and could be considered gigantuan.

In my copy of The Annotated Hobbit, there is a footnote stating

it seems probable that they can be interpreted as a type of troll. Both are large and apparently malicious beings.

Then the footnote goes into a little bit about Bert, Tom, and William and their debased form of Common Speech. Then

In his "Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings," Tolkien notes in the entry for Ettendales that it is "meant to be a Common Speech (not Elvish) name, though it contains an obsolete element eten 'troll, ogre.'" Old English oeten, Middle English eten, is usually translated as "giant, monster." And the form etayn appears twice in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight; in the 1925 Tolkien and Gordon edition it is glossed "ogre, giant." In Beowulf, the monster Grendel clearly derives from a tradition of waterfall-trolls, but is also referred to as and oeten.

Also see our discussion on KILLER TROLLS (This was a pretty interesting discussion): tolkiensring.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Creatures&action=display&thread=263

[Stormrider]

Another thought...if these were giants, were they an actual breed or just some people that grew really tall? Some basketball players are very tall. Or like the actor, Andre the giant, with growth imbalance. Perhaps they were shunned and cast out of their villages as "freaks of nature" and while wandering around Middle Earth to find a suitable place to hide, found each other.

But why in the world would they come out in a thunderstorm and throw bolders at each other as if it were a game? Why not do it in good weather?

It sounds more and more like something Tolkien dreamt up to add more interest and a touch of fear to his children's tale. Therefore, giants were never mentioned anywhere else.

[Andorinha]

RE: Stormrider's: "As I read this passage, I never imagined that these were real people, but just some sort of "through-the-blinding-thunderstorm" illusion that Bilbo was seeing. You know, like the angels are bowling when you hear thunder. Tricks of the eye in the dark, with lighting reflecting off the raindrops, can cause you to see things that aren't there."

Good chain of logic on the "giant issue," Stormrider, I guess there are many people who, like you, feel there were no "real" giants, even in The Hobbit, let alone LOTR. I think, however, this theory comes mainly from the lack of giants (humanoid type giants) in LOTR. So, I wonder if people are reading this backward into the earlier book, The Hobbit.

For myself, I read The Hobbit as a book intended for kids, a book that had many folk tale and fairy tale roots, and one of the chief staples of such fairy tales has always been the "Jack-in-the-Beanstalk" type of humanoid giant. So I never thought the giants were not really there. Afterall, we have talking spiders; talking eagles; a "were-bear" named Beorn; and Beorn's "unusual," "intelligent-faced" beasts. Among these beasts we have (sheep/ rams) trained to serve at table, horses who act as intelligent sentinels for Beorn, and to whom Beorn talks, and who may be able to "talk" to Beorn in turn.

When they approach Beorn's hall, Gandalf and Bilbo are met by some decidedly above average horses: "The wizard and the hobbit pushed open the heavy creaking gate and went down a wide track towards the house. Some horses, very sleek and well-groomed, trotted up across the grass and looked at them intently with very intelligent faces; then they galloped to the buildings." ( The Hobbit, hardback version, chpt 7, p.128)

Gandalf's reaction to these horses is revealed in his flat statement "They [the horses] have gone to tell him [Beorn] of the arrival of strangers..." ( p. 128)

So, with all these other magical creatures in The Hobbit, not to mention a talking dragon named Smaug, it never seemed odd or unreal to have humanoid giants in the story as well. Now, sometimes Tolkien, back in the HOME volumes did sort of mix up giants and trolls, which is OK with me, the Stone-giants out tossing rocks, could have come from troll stock, but I think we are meant to see them as humanoid type fairy tale giants, plain and simple. If we judge the Stone-giants by the standards of troll behaviour, they do seem not to be trolls. Bert, William, and Tom were out to eat the dwarves and hobbit, but Gandalf, later in Bilbo's tale, speaks of finding a "decent" type giant to block up the Goblins' cave entrance. Doesn't sound as if the Stone-giants are quite as bad as the three trolls?

One way of finding out if Tolkien meant these as real giants, not just a trick of Bilbo's eye, is to look at whether or not the other characters in the tale believe the Stone-giants were really there. Did anyone else, other than Bilbo see them? Bilbo's eyes might be playing tricks on him, but Gandalf also sees the giants, as do the dwarves, who then make several comments about them. So all of the company must be deluded, or having tricks of sight? I found it easier to assume the Stone-giants were just as real as the talking dragon.

Maybe Tolkien used "humanoid giants" elsewhere in his tales. That might bolster my contention that the Stone-giants were real? I'll see what I can find.

Off the top of my head, there was a humanoid giant in the Farmer Giles story, as well as a talking dog; and I think the original giants in Morgoth's Utumno were likewise based on the Norse fairy tale giants, who were also humanoid. So, I think up until the final version of LOTR, wasn't the "evil giant" in The Return of the Shadow, whose name was Treebeard, supposed to be a humanoid giant? Only in the final version did Tolkien change this giant into a tree-like Ent, whose basic character was then also changed from bad to good.

[Andorinha]

On the Nature of Tolkien's Giants

Farmer Giles of Ham, Tolkien's longish story about a farmer who is raised to kingly status on his own merits, was probably first written in late 1927,* Tolkien submitted Farmer Giles to his publisher in 1936, but it was found to be "unsuitable" and did not see its first publication until 1949. The early date of the story's original composition means that it was just barely pre-Hobbit (The Hobbit seems to have been started in 1928) and it is most probable that the Stone-giants of The Hobbit were the same type as the giant in Farmer Giles. The "Giles-giant" was a normal-styled, humanoid giant whose "head was far above the roofs of houses and left his feet to look after themselves. He was near-sighted and also rather deaf. Fortunately he lived far off in the Wild, and seldom visited the lands inhabited by men, at least not on purpose." The "Giles-giant" was not particularly nasty or evil, just a good-natured, very clumsy oaf. His destruction of human property was simply accidental, or, at worst, he did steal sheep for food. He squashed the farmer's cow, a pure accident. In retaliation, Farmer Giles blasted the giant with pellets from a black-powder charged blunderbuss (kind of a shotgun). The giant, thinking he had been stung by bees, grabbed up a few sheep as a snack, and headed back to his home in the Wild. Giles rise to fame and fortune begins with this semi-comical affair, he is certainly not a "giant-killer," but gains renown as a "giant-averter."

This main theme of "humanoid" giants who are not bright, and more clumsy than deliberately nasty, is repeated in The Hobbit: "When he [Bilbo] peeped out in the lightning-flashes, he saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out, and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below... 'This won't do at all!' said Thorin, 'If we don't get blown off, or drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football.' " (The Hobbit, Chpt 4, p. 68, hardback version). Here, Bilbo sees the Stone-giants, and so does Thorin.

When Thorin expresses his fear that the company might be used as "footballs," does this necessarily imply that the giants were mean enough to deliberately pick up a dwarf and kick him out of malice? Maybe. But, I did not get that impression, though others may have -- rather, I thought it meant that the giants might grab, more by "short-sighted" accident the first thing at hand suitable for kicking, and might have regretted the action after they found out it was a dwarf or a hobbit or a wizard they had booted. This, in my mind made the giants of Farmer Giles and The Hobbit, dangerous more out of boisterous clumsiness than evil intent. Though I must admit, Gandalf seems to think there were some "decent" giants, which implies there were also some who might not be so "decent."

To further show that the giants of The Hobbit were not necessarily evil, we have a second mention of them in chpt 6, where Gandalf comments upon the new entrance to the Goblin mines "at the top of the pass the dwarves had taken..." ... "I must see if I can find a more or less decent giant to block it up again..." (The Hobbit, chpt 6, p. 105). From the "more or less decent" phrase, I see a direct connection between the giants of Bilbo's tale and that from Farmer Giles story -- both feature giants who are not truly evil, and some of these giants might even help humans against goblins.

Originally, and I think Stormrider has worked on this theme before, the Treebeard character in the early drafts of LOTR, was still named Treebeard, but he was a "humanoid" giant, and rather an evil one who captures Gandalf and holds him as a prisoner. It is only fairly late, I think, in the third major revision of the LOTR manuscript, that Tolkien conceived the idea of Treebeard and the other "giants" no longer as humanoid, but as "tree-like Ents." No more "Jack and the Beanstalk" styled creatures.

There is another "sort of" giant in The Hobbit, though some may object to this notion, but Beorn is certainly "gigantic" compared to other Men, though he is also a were-bear. Beorn, it would seem, is very bright, unlike the Stone-giants and the giant of Farmer Giles, but, although he can be "nasty," or at least savage at times, he is also, like Gandalf's "more or less decent" giants, approachable, and even helpful (at least helpful to Gandalf, the dwarves, and our hobbit!).

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*see the entry "Farmer Giles of Ham," in The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide," pp 288 -294.


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Other sources for giants in Tolkien that I have not yet looked up include:

John D. Rateliff, Mr. Baggins, pp. 143/ 144

Tolkien's Book of Lost Tales supposedly mentions giants

_____________________________________

In Humphrey Carpenter's The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, there are other citations for giants. Especially in LOTR, before he changed the Stone-giant Treebeard into an Ent:

Letters p. 42n giant in lotr: "Still there are more hobbits, far more of them and about them, in the new story. Gollum reappears, and Gandalf is to the fore: 'dwarves' come in; and though there is no dragon (so far) there is going to be a Giant; and the new and (very alarming) Ringwraiths are a feature. There ought to be things that people who liked the old mixture will find to have a similar taste."

My emphasis.

Treebeard as humanoid Giant also shows up in -- Return of the Shadow HOME, pp. 254, 384, 363

The Norse "Fire-giant." a humanoid type, who was called Sutr, seems to have been a Norse saga source for the Balrog of Moria, Sutr also has a flaming sword.

[Stormrider]

Wow! you did some research there!

I see now that the Dwarves and Gandalf saw the stone-giants, too. I overlooked the rest of the passage when I went back and refreshed my memory.

Thorin says, "If we don't get blown off, or drowned, or struck by lightning, we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football."

"Well, if you know of anywhere better, take us there!" said Gandalf, who was feeling very grumpy, and was far from happy about the giants himself.

Andorinha said:

When Thorin expresses his fear that the company might be used as "footballs," does this necessarily imply that the giants were mean enough to deliberately pick up a dwarf and kick him out of malice? Maybe. But, I did not get that impression, though others may have -- rather, I thought it meant that the giants might grab, more by "short-sighted" accident the first thing at hand suitable for kicking, and might have regretted the action after they found out it was a dwarf or a hobbit or a wizard they had booted. This, in my mind made the giants of Farmer Giles and The Hobbit, dangerous more out of boisterous clumsiness than evil intent. Though I must admit, Gandalf seems to think there were some "decent" giants, which implies there were also some who might not be so "decent."

Yep! I think the giants were just having a good time playing and would have mistakenly picked up the dwarves by accident. They may not even have realized they had done it either!

So then, I might be on the right track here:

Another thought...if these were giants, were they an actual breed or just some people that grew really tall? Some basketball players are very tall. Or like the actor, Andre the giant, with growth imbalance. Perhaps they were shunned and cast out of their villages as "freaks of nature" and while wandering around Middle Earth to find a suitable place to hide, found each other.

So...were they a BREED or CAST-OUTS? I think if they were shunned and sent away, they might have ill feelings toward other people and would not be friendly. But if they were a breed of people, then they would be like any other people with many different attitudes and personalities.

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Nice work, Andorinha. You found more to research than I expected.

The fact that Gandalf also sees and references giants convinces me they were real. Gandalf knew what was what in Middle-earth. He wouldn't be taken in by superstition or folk legend. Granted, it's possible he could have used the word "giant" to refer to something else (like an Ent), as his companions would be more familiar with the term. Similar to how "goblin" was used in place of "orc" throughout The Hobbit. But some sort of oversize creature must have existed in the Misty Mountains.

Feb 12, 2011 19:34:10 GMT -6 Stormrider said:

But if I had to take it literally and assume they were "real" and not an illusion Bilbo was seeing, I am sure I would have thought they were another breed of troll. Afterall, Trolls are pretty large and could be considered gigantuan.

In my copy of The Annotated Hobbit, there is a footnote stating Then the footnote goes into a little bit about Bert, Tom, and William and their debased form of Common Speech. Then

In his "Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings," Tolkien notes in the entry for Ettendales that it is "meant to be a Common Speech (not Elvish) name, though it contains an obsolete element eten 'troll, ogre.'" Old English oeten, Middle English eten, is usually translated as "giant, monster." And the form etayn appears twice in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight; in the 1925 Tolkien and Gordon edition it is glossed "ogre, giant." In Beowulf, the monster Grendel clearly derives from a tradition of waterfall-trolls, but is also referred to as and oeten.

Good points. A thought that occurred to me is that in Tolkien's cosmology, no being other than Eru is able to create life. The Dark Lords could only corrupt and mutate existing races to produce their armies of orcs and trolls. What if the giants were the remnants of the ancient race that the trolls were bred from?

There must have been a species of large, vaguely human-like creatures that Morgoth used as breeding stock to create the trolls. They'd be huge and dangerous but not as outright antagonistic to other races, at least in the beginning. Like the trolls, the giants seem to be tied to the element of stone and Stormrider already pointed out the connection between the Ettendales/Ettenmoors and the giant-like mythical creature, the Ettin (or Etten, Oeten, etc.). I think a common ancestor for giants and trolls would be a logical way to fit the giants into Tolkien's mythology.

Again though, this is all supposition. We will likely never know Tolkien's intention.

[Andorinha]

Re Stormrider's: "So...were they a BREED or CAST-OUTS? I think if they were shunned and sent away, they might have ill feelings toward other people and would not be friendly. But if they were a breed of people, then they would be like any other people with many different attitudes and personalities."

We might be able to see what JRRT had in mind for the origins of the giants by looking at his first version of LOTR.

There were wars, and there was much burning and ruin. The dwarves were growing afraid. Goblins were multiplying again and reappearing. Trolls of a new and most malevolent kind were abroad; giants were spoken of, a Big Folk only far bigger and stronger than Men, the ordinary Big Folk, and no stupider, indeed often full of cunning and wizardry. And there were vague hints of things or creatures more terrible than goblins, trolls, or giants.

(cf History of the LOTR, The Return of the Shadow, vol 1, p. 253, emphasis mine)

Here Tolkien makes it clear that the "giants" were actually human beings, Men in Middle-earth, only much bigger and stronger than the ordinary Men like Barliman, Aragorn, etc. JRRT also adds the note here that these humanoid giants were no longer like the dull-witted, nearsighted giant in "Farmer Giles of Ham," but were now very intelligent, and sometimes equipped with the powers of a wizard. This was done so that the humanoid giant Treebeard (before he became a tree-Ent) could realistically capture and detain Gandalf. Only a creature with "magical" powers could capture the Grey Wanderer...

This statement also makes it clear, that at this time and in this early phase of LOTR, trolls were separate and distinct from the humanoid giants. Later, in the final, published version of LOTR, this passage would be altered to drop the references to humanoid giants, and the tag about "cunning/ intelligence" would be given to a new/ improved breed of trolls, possibly the Olog-hai.

Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."

(LOTR, Fellowship of the Ring, "The Shadow of the Past," chpt 2, p. 72 paperback version)

So it appears that JRRT , before he changed Treebeard the evil, wizardly, humanoid giant, into Treebeard "the friendly" Ent, was going to develop the Stone-giants of The Hobbit into a race derived from Men, and increasingly wicked. Maybe, there would still have been some "decent" giants left? Kind of like "redeemable Orcs?" LOL

[Stormrider]

Thanks, Andorinha.

I like that Tolkien was considering they be a breed of their own rather than cast outs. From the passage you quoted, it sounds like they were even larger than what I was thinking would be the size of a person cast out of their village...I was thinking of really tall people like some basketball players or someone like the actor Andre the Giant or the man who played Lurch on The Addams Family.

It might have added another cool aspect to Middle-earth to have actually had some GIANTS in the story. Being cunning and wizardly doesn't necessarily mean that they would be cruel or evil folk, but from the passage they seem to be grouped in with the evil entities. I'm glad Treebeard became the friendly tree-ish giant that he ended up being.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's "But why in the world would they come out in a thunderstorm and throw bolders at each other as if it were a game? Why not do it in good weather?"

"It may initially seem that Tolkien does little with the giants of Norse mythology (Hill Giants, Frost Giants, and Fire Giants). As traditional, flesh-and-blood figures, giants appear only in The Hobbit, where Stone-giants (echoing a scene from the Eddic Grottasongr) hurl 'rocks at one another for a game' (H, IV, 104)."

Marjorie Burns, influences on Tolkien's ME, "Old Norse Literature," p. 478, in M.C. Drout, J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia.

The game the giants are playing is nothing less that the "creation of thunder." Hence these giants always choose dark and stormy nights to which they would add the lightning and thunder, no thunder on a clear day!

When little Norse children would ask their mothers "What makes that thunder?" Their Mums had a ready made tale to tell then: "Why that's the great giants gone out to play, and the rocks they toss make all the bang and rumble!"

Reminds me of the Dutch New York tales where thunder is explained as being the sound of Henry Hudson and his long "ghosted" crew playing skittlles or nine pins up in the sky (Washington Irving's Old Rip van Winkle).

[Stormrider]

So I guess I was not far off with the "angels are bowling" theory, too. More like old wives tales handed down thru the ages to explain the noise and racket of a huge thunderstorm. So based on old tales, Tolkien used this tactic to further enhance the dreary night that the Dwarves, Hobbit, and Wizard found themselves in.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: "More like old wives tales handed down thru the ages..."

Yeah, Stormrider, I get the feeling JRRT was deliberately using a lot of background folklore/ fairy tale themes all throughout The Hobbit, which would make it automatically familiar to his original audience, his own children. I know when I first read this book, it seemed to fit perfectly with my own childhood fairy tale books. It gave me a sense of "sharing" the same traditions and roots as Bilbo, so I felt quite at home with JRRT's book.

[Andorinha]

The first use of the term "giant" that I have so far found, comes in an early tale by JRRT "The Coming of the Valar," version A. This is found on page 75 (hardback version BOLT-1) where the prowess of the Valar Tulkas is extolled at length: "Most youthful is he [Tulkas] and strong of limb and lusty... Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked as is Makar [another early version Valar- god], albeit there are none of Valar or Uvanimor ( who are monsters, giants, and ogres) that do not fear the sinews of his arm and the buffet of his iron-clad fist, when he has cause for wrath." (my emphasis)

Later, from a commentary by Chris Tolkien, we find out a bit more concerning these "Uvanimor," the "not Valar," or "un-Valar."

At this point in the story the agents of Melko appear, the Uvanimor, 'bred in the earth' by him (Uvanimor, 'who were monsters, giants, and ogres', have been mentioned in an earlier tale. p. 75); and Tuvo protected Men and Elves from them [the Uvanimor] and from evil 'fays'. [Version] A makes mention of Orcs besides."

(BOLT-1, p. 236 hardback version, p 268 paperback)

From the continuing passages on pp 236-37 BOLT-1, we have the Dwarves and Orcs being used together to tell Men lies and seek to estrange them from the Elves. To this, Chris Tolkien adds the explanation: "In the early writings the Dwarves are always portrayed as an evil people." (BOLT-1, p. 236 hb ver.)

So, in this early material, some of it from the early 1920s, both the Giants and the Dwarves were classed as the foes of the Valar, Elves, and Men. In later versions, the Dwarves are given a new and separate origin when they become, in The Silmarillion, the creatures of Aule, not the creatures of Melko/ Morgoth. I cannot find a specific source text that does the same for the Giants, that is, a source that "redeems" them, and gives them another origin. So it appears that Giants were first "created/ engineered" by Melko, who made them from the stuff of the earth. But then, without a specific explanation, we have the later tradition that the Giants are simply derived from the Eru-created race of Men.

At any rate, despite the early BOLT-1 tradtion concerning the Evil nature of the Giants, by the late 20s with Farmer Giles of Ham, and certainly by the time of The Hobbit, the original "evil" origin of both Dwarves and Giants seems to have been significantly altered. Now, Giants are "wayward," clumsy, sometimes dangerous creatures, but still may associate in some "friendliness" with Men, as sometimes "decent" creatures. Likewise the Dwarves go through a considerable rehabilitation, to become, in The Hobbit, a people of significant "good," though still somewhat cantankerous, willful, proud, and stubborn.

At this time, 1930s, and through the period of LOTR, I think that the Giants (until in the late version of LOTR when they are made Tree-like) remain humanoid in form, derived from the stock of Men, and are not creatures of inherent evil, rather creatures who could be "good," according to individual temperament.

From this early material in BOLT-1, there seems to have arisen some discussion among Tolkien readers, as to whether or not Melko/ Morgoth actually created the Giants, created them in the sense that later in The Silmarillion Aule "creates" the Dwarves. Perhaps, in the BOLT-1 period, Tolkien had not yet decided upon his later formula, wherein only Eru can truly create, and Aule's Dwarves would have been soul-less without Eru's sanction. There is no passage in BOLT-1 that refers to Melko making the Giants, and then later receiving "sanction" for their existence. So, it looks like, in the early days, Melko/ Morgoth had the power to create his own "evil" creatures, the "monsters, giants, and ogres..." Later, by the time of the Silmarillion, Tolkien restricted "creative power" to Eru, and allowed Melko/ Morgoth to "corrupt" some of the already existing creatures to become the servants and slaves of his Evil: then, Trolls (corrupted Ents), Orcs (corrupted Elves -- later Men), are established. It is unclear to me, but if we take the original meanng of Ent to be Giant (before the Ents were turned into Tree-shepherds), then the Trolls would at first have been "corrupted" humanoid Giants?

Tolkien revised, and greatly altered elements of his mythology as the years passed. Sometimes he made complete notes to explain these alterations, but for the Giants, I think the track of their development is a broken one, and leaves me puzzled at times, incapable of determining precisely how he meant us to see these Giants.

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One more point where many readers think we may see the presence of Giants, even in LOTR, is derived from interpretations of the scene where the Fellowship tries the mountain Pass of Caradhras: "It may have been only a trick of the wind in the cracks and gullies of the rocky wall, but the sounds were those of shrill cries and wild howls of laughter. Stones began to fall from the mountain-side, whistling over their heads, or crashing on the path beside them." (FotR, pp 377-78 "The Ring Goes South," paperback version)

The parallels with the Stone-giants in the pass of the northern Misty Mountains, where Bilbo and the Dwarves/ wizard actually see the laughing, stone tossing Giants are remarkable. So, were there still Giants (humanoid rock-throwers) in FotR?

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Feb 21, 2011 11:34:15 GMT -6 Andorinha said:

Later, by the time of the Silmarillion, Tolkien restricted "creative power" to Eru, and allowed Melko/ Morgoth to "corrupt" some of the already existing creatures to become the servants and slaves of his Evil: then, Trolls (corrupted Ents), Orcs (corrupted Elves -- later Men), are established. It is unclear to me, but if we take the original meanng of Ent to be Giant (before the Ents were turned into Tree-shepherds), then the Trolls would at first have been "corrupted" humanoid Giants?

I don't remember it being said that the Trolls were corrupted Ents. Just that they were "made in mockery of the Ents," i.e. an existing race that was corrupted and transformed to resemble the Ents in size and power. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

But yes, I was leaning towards Trolls being derived from Giants as well. Assuming Ents and Giants were distinct creatures at that point in Tolkien's stories, Morgoth would need a race that was similar enough to the huge, tree-like Ents to rival them in strength. Why not turn some of the lumbering and potentially dangerous Giants towards evil? After all, in Norse mythology, Trolls and Giants are both classified as Jotunn (the etymological ancestor of Etten). I'd have to research it further but there doesn't seem to be as clear a distinction between Giants and Trolls in the original Norse stories. They may be synonyms of each other. It's only in later folklore that they become separate creatures.

That said, the quote you found earlier makes a convincing case for the Giants being an offshoot of Men -- "a Big Folk, only far bigger and stronger than Men." That is, unless "Big Folk" is used in a general sense of any race larger than Hobbits, not necessarily human in origin. If the Giants were indeed Men, perhaps the Trolls derived from some other, less monstrous ancestor ("Proto-Trolls?").

As for that scene on Caradhras, I thought that was supposed to be the mocking voice of Saruman on the wind. Or maybe that's just the movie version. I haven't read the books in a while.