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Post by Stormrider on May 16, 2012 19:31:57 GMT -6
I found some references to missing hobbits:
Foster's Book pointed me to Appendix C at the back of ROTK and these names and comments are found in the Hobbit Family Trees:
Hildifons Took went on a journey and never returned.
Isengar Took was said to have gone to sea in his youth. However, it did not say that he went missing after that. Sea is not capitalized as if it was an important body of water. He may just have traveled along the coastline of Middle Earth and not ventured further West toward Valinor.
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Post by Andorinha on May 16, 2012 22:47:11 GMT -6
Freddie, that bothers me some too, was the "Undying Land" to the West, in 1937, really the Silmarillion's Valinor area, or was it more generalized, like the Land of the Undying (also across the Western Sea) to which the ancient the Irish thought they could sail: "Tir Na nOg - the Land of the Ever Young - is that undying land in the west where the fairy folk live and to which we would all like to travel when we are weary of this world." Oh, and I am being called into the West And the sound of the call is pleasant. The gentle blackbird is whispering over the harbor. Oh, I will go to my ship And unfurl the sails And my safe arrival yonder be granted. Not the many lighted land of the lays would I prefer But a land full of charity would suit me Where there dwells generosity of heart Between houses in peace. There is where my affection lies - for the Land of the Ever Young cited from: www.theonering.com/reading-room/essays/turas-go-tir-na-nog-journey-to-the-land-of-the-ever-young-an-irish-lullabyFollowing Occam's Razor here, I think by 1937 Tolkien had taken the Old Irish Imram Tales (tales of mortals going by boat to the Blessed Isles, the Undying Realm of the West) and used them to create his Valinor. I believe the Middle-earth Mythological Tol Eressea, and Valinor predate The Hobbit, so maybe the Valinor area was in JRRT's mind when wrote Bilbo's tale? I'll do some more research on this...
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Post by Andorinha on May 16, 2012 22:56:15 GMT -6
Stormrider, as usual your researches have brought up some great material that require a bit more reading on my part. Hildifons! Yeah, that strikes a bell for me, not one of the "here and back again," happy hobbit adventures...
Isengar and his sailing is invented after The Hobbit for the LOTR, so I think you are right in seeing his voyage(s) as being coastal trips, maybe down to Gondor's Belfalas? But, back in 1937, I think the original version Hobbit does refer to "Imram style trips" from the Mortal Lands to the "Other Side." But the hobbit(s) mentioned would not necessarily have been Isengar?
Er, yes, regarding "Fanuidhol:"
Ah, I'm afraid the name Fanuidhol is entirely my fault. One hot, dry afternoon, near the merry-go-round where the delinquents gather for their after-school fights, Fan (under a different name back then) tossed me about something fierce. In the process of this drubbing, she got her fly-away mass of hair entirely covered with the heavy powder of the playground. Every time she shook her fist at my retreating figure, her head would toss up billows of dust, producing a cloud-like formation that has followed her about ever since. Hence the moniker, "Cloudyhead!"
Well, that's how I remember it, could be wrong...
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Post by Andorinha on May 22, 2012 6:40:04 GMT -6
Fonstad puts Bilbo's departure from Rivendell on the 8th of May, so I was trying to "guesstimate" just when the wizard and the hobbit would reach the Trolls' buried gold.
By counting backwards, it took 32 days for the full troupe to travel from Hobbiton to the Trolls' lair on the outward trek, but the entire trip from Rivendell to Hobbiton on the return must fall between May 8 and June 1. Apparently, the dwarves were the bottleneck in the venture as Gandalf and Bilbo (alone) take only 21 days to cover the same distance. According to Fonstad's upper map, p. 100, it looks like the Trolls' lair is a bit more than one quarter of that distance, so about the 13th or 14th of May they must have recovered the gold? (The Hobbit, p. 269, "The Last Stage")
The town of Bree is about 3/4s of the home trek, so about May 23, we can expect Wizard and hobbit to ride through Bree -- of course Barliman would not yet be there, but the "Prancing Pony" should have been around...
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Post by Stormrider on May 24, 2012 6:43:31 GMT -6
Ah, yes. I stopped in at The Prancing Pony last night and sat down with Gandalf and Bilbo and had a nice meal and a few pints of ale with them.
Bilbo was quite relaxed and very self-assured. He did not say much about his adventures but when I asked him about Smaug he said the dragon was a very impressive beast. Bilbo said Smaug's fiery color was dazzling and added to the beast's overall heat. He shivered when he recalled Smaug's mezzmerizing voice and was somewhat ashamed that he bragged about his exploits to the dragon giving away too many clues to where he had been and who had helped him. I reasurred him that although Smaug destroyed Laketown, it was lucky that Bard the Bowman (with the help of his special arrow and the bird's advice on the spot to aim for) was an excellent archer.
Gandalf was rather quiet -- probably pondering Bilbo's ring and its disappearing properties. However, he did produce many lovely smoke shapes for me -- a butterfly, a swan, a horse, an archer, and a dragon. His ability to do that is really amazing!
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Post by Andorinha on May 25, 2012 7:42:40 GMT -6
Ah, shucks! I got stuck out towards Archet, did not get back into Bree til long after Bilbo and the Wiz had gone... Hmm, wondering if I still have time to race off for Hobbiton? Would love to see the look on the faces of the Sackville-Bagginses when Bilbo shows up!
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Post by Stormrider on May 30, 2012 6:25:14 GMT -6
In Letters of JRRT -- Letter # 214 to A. C. Nunn (draft) This letter begins talking about Stoor customs including birthday gift exchanges - Many paragraphs into the letter, there is a discussion about the 'head' of the family of 'Baggins of Hobbiton'. Bilbo did not succeed (as head), until the death of his Took mother, Belladonna, in 1334, when he was 44.
The next paragraph:
This letter goes on to discuss other legalities (particularly from the Took family). If the Took 'head' had no 'son' (descent was stictly through the male line), the deceased's eldest daughter's eldest son would become head. It also mentions adoption by a childless 'head' of a member from a different family would not be legal since it was a matter of blood and kinship. But an adoption of a close relative of the same name before he was of age entitled him to all privileges of a son.
I just thought this was interesting. I didn't read much about the Stoors, because I was searching for the name 'Belladonna' and was interested in her. I was hoping to find out if she had any adventures that may have been 'inspired' by Gandalf. I need to keep searching!
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Post by Andorinha on May 30, 2012 20:02:24 GMT -6
Oooo! Neat stuff!, Stormrider I did not think to extend the search to The Letters, I'll see if I can find my fall-apart copy...
LOL, looks like Bilbo and Frodo really did stir things up in Hobbit Land, even got the laws of inheritance re-written!
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Post by Stormrider on May 31, 2012 22:51:31 GMT -6
Good ole Master Samwise taking matters into his own Mayoral hands realizing the disappearances over the Sea to Valinor would not necessarily mean soon-to-occur deaths (or maybe they wouldn't pass on once they were in Valinor??) or even that their deaths would be relayed back home to Hobbiton. His official rule enabled the descendants of the Ring Bearers their legal rights of inheritance.
Didn't Frodo tell Sam that he would inherit all of Bag End when he and Bilbo sailed with Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel? Did he write something down officially? It would have been important for the rest of Hobbiton to know that Bilbo and Frodo were not coming back ever again. At least there were three reliable Hobbit witnesses to their sailing to Valinor. So who witnessed Sam's departure? His family? Pippin and Merry?
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 8, 2012 5:13:46 GMT -6
Yeah, somewhere along the line, Frodo did tell Sam he would get Bag-End, but I don't remember a legal statement/ document ever being mentioned. Still, as legal-sticklers, the hobbits must have had it all down somewhere as Sam, in the appendices does serve as mayor, and does live in Bag End...
Does one sort of "die" by going to the Other World of the Immortal Lands? That is a problem. The only Tolkien "mortal" to get there and then come back seems to be The Looney of the Poem Sea Bell...
Hmmm, don't recall when Sam left, is that in the appendix of dates, I'll check, so Galadriel/ Elrond/ Bilbo/ Frodo et al were not on the Last Ship by any means, we need at least one for Sam and then possibly one for Gimli/ Legolas? Wonder if Sam went with them? At any rate, maybe we can figure out when Merry and Pippin died, maybe they did see Sam off? I'd like to think that a couple of his kids were there to wave the boat along its way...
Just realized that our year plus journey following the travels of Bilbo is done -- it has been great fun. Thank You, Vanye for suggesting this topic! It gives me a "real time" appreciation of the "here and back again" venture.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jun 9, 2012 19:11:05 GMT -6
According to the Tolkien Gateway, Sam sailed for Valinor in Fourth Age 62 after Rosie's death. It also notes that mortals who are allowed into Valinor do eventually die. They don't become immortal. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Sam_Gamgee#HistoryI couldn't find an exact date of death for Merry and Pippin but it seems to be some time after Fourth Age 64. They were still around when Sam passes over sea but it doesn't say if they saw him off. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Peregrin_TookOn Legolas' entry, it says he and Gimli sailed West after Aragorn's death in Fourth Age 120. tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Legolas
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Post by Vanye on Jun 9, 2012 19:43:16 GMT -6
Well tomorrow is the 10th of June & though we do not know the exact day they arrived back at Bagend I have just been thinking about how long ago ie. the 27th of April-more than one year ago-that Bilbo, Gandalf & the dwarves rode away into adventure! And it has indeed been a grand adventure.
I have tried to imagine what it would be like to return home after a journey of that length & am certain that I would see lots of changes in many things upon my arrival after more than 365+ days; especially when an absence of even a few days to a couple of weeks will lead to my noticing many little details of change in the vegetation- flowers, shrubs etc. Objects & furniture may have been moved a little or even totally rearranged by others in the house hold. If you have young children or animals & are gone for even a couple of months you will see a lot of changes in those 'youngsters'. These small details make me feel as though I have missed something 'which indeed I have'. So along w/all the stuff that is going on when Bilbo & Company arrive back home I feel sure that they had similar feelings of 'missing time'.
Anyway the adventure is drawing to a close for Bilbo & Co. And 'A Long Strange Trip ' it has been! 8^)
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 16, 2012 7:05:43 GMT -6
Yeah, Vanye, "missing time," Bilbo would have a great deal of local history to catch up on. In LOTR when Frodo showed up, he spent a lot of time with Bilbo just discussing all the minor alterations in the Shire. Bilbo had a strong "home-body" side to his character. And, after his first adventure with Gandalf, with all the alterations to his own mind, he would have to re-evaluated his old hobbit lore in terms of the changes his traveling had made in his own judgments.
The Shire, having assumed his death, would now have to get used his altered reappearance, and Bilbo would have to find new ways of fitting himself back into the old society...
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 16, 2012 11:53:26 GMT -6
After so much "personal growth" due to his adventures, Bilbo must have felt very out of place in The Shire among all his family and friends. Bilbo would have been so much more world-wise than everyone else and the rest must have seemed very naive to him now.
However, Bilbo never struck me as a hobbit who wanted to stand out in a crowd and because of some of his new peculiarities from his travels he did. He must have worked hard to be less prominent and more hobbit-like after his return (at least for appearances sake). However, there still seemed to be gossip and talk about him despite his efforts for the low-profile.
After many years had passed and it was time for his 111th farewell birthday party, he finally decided to plan a grand exit to spark those tales back up and get everyone talking about him again. His little exit joke.
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