So, Who is the Older? Tom, or Treebeard?

[Andorinha]

Another matter of renewed interest comes from The Two Towers study led by Algamesh. In this case, there continues to be some debate concerning the relative ages of Tom Bombadil and Treebeard the Ent.

I'll start off with a summary, a recap of the old forum discussion; and then see what we can add to it from the vantage point of some 10 more years of new publications, thoughts, and speculations.

[Andorinha]

Week Two - Who is the Oldest?


From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/28/2002 10:49 PM

In the Week Two assignment, we run into what seems to be a contradiction. From reading the responses of Iarwain to the "Young" Saruman post, I see that he seems game for debating the contradiction ... .

In Book III, Chapter 5 of the trilogy ('The White Rider'), Gandalf states that Treebeard is "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon Middle-earth." Does this seem to be an accurate statement? What of Bombadil? I assume that Gandalf is excluding himself, the Wizards, and Sauron due to their 'immigration' ... does this indicate that maybe Bombadil came from Aman as well?

Your thoughts?

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From: Selmo Sent: 10/29/2002 6:00 AM

I interpret Gandalf's words to mean that Treebeard is the oldest rational being in Middle Earth who is of Middle Earth. Others may be older, but they are from outside Middle Earth.

Selmo,

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From: Amaranth Sent: 10/29/2002 4:10 PM

If Tom Bombadil is right about this, then he's the Oldest. From FotR (sorry!), "In the House of Tom Bombadil," about the 3rd page before the end of the chapter, Tom tells the hobbits:

I am old. Eldest, thats what I am. Mark my words, my friends:
Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the
first raindrop and the first acorn.

Diana

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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 11/4/2002 8:31 PM

Well not knowing Tolkien's true intenet, and yet knowing there are errors and faux pas within the tales. I am inclined to believe that this is what the question truely is. Is this a Tolkien error? Or is it an intentional wording slight of hand?

Tom Bombadil claims to be "Eldest" but he never expresses eldest what! What I have always assumed is that Bombadil is a "spirit" outside of Middle-earth with a tangable form within it. Where Treebeard is a spirit and form within Middle-earth. I know this sounds bit confusing, but if we recall the Silmarillion, and the Void it mentions, we see a place apart from Middle-earth not subject to the passing of time.

This goes back to why Tom is unaffected by the Ring, although his physical form is bound to Middle-earth, his spirit form is of the Void, and therefore not subject to Eru's rules.
This is of course one way to look at it.

Namárië,
Iarwain

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From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/19/2002 10:20 PM

I have read that Tom represents disappearing country or nature... Iawnin Ben-adar I am sure your board help here) or something like that. I think he has always existed, but not as a living being. Has he manifested himself looking flesh and blood and he doesn't count as (I see what Iawain Ben-adar is getting at). as is a living and breathing entity... Tom is a spirit. So technically Tom doesn't count as the oldest living creature. Selmo - I agree that Gandalf is only talking about those that live in ME. Although the Elves awoke the Ents, it is likely that they existed before the elves that currently live in ME. I feel great about the statement of Treebeard being the eldest living thing in ME. Great discussion - I could not have come up with my understanding without all of the experts here.

Luthien (Sarah)
"You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him!"

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

I don't think it's possible to resolve this debate. We'd have to know what Tom Bombadil really is, which is a question that will likely never be answered.

If we take his word at face value, Tom says he was here "before the river and the trees." The Ents were created to be shepherds of the trees, so they came after trees had already grown. As such, Tom would be older.

As far as the seeming contradiction about the "eldest living thing in Middle-earth," I agree with the explanation in this thread -- that Tom is a spirit and thus not technically a living thing. Or at least that he began as a spirit and possibly took physical/living form later in his existence.

Beyond that, there's little we can say for certain other than all the classic Bombadil theories -- that he's a nature spirit of an unknown order, that he's a Maia, that he's a Vala, that he's an aspect of Eru Iluvatar himself, etc. Who really knows? In all these cases though, he would be a spiritual entity, rather than a living being like Treebeard.

[Andorinha]

RE Fredeghar's: "I don't think it's possible to resolve this debate. We'd have to know what Tom Bombadil really is, which is a question that will likely never be answered."

Although I truly think, Freddie, that you are correct -- without solid knowledge of just what JRRT meant Tom to be, we will never obtain certitude regarding Bombadil's own claim to be The Eldest -- nonetheless, and just to be impossibly contentious I have a few (half-baked?) observations/ propositions to advance.

Sigh, I feel another two part (at least) essay coming on, LOL...

I'll be specifically looking at this question of "spiritual entities;" and then at the seeming "forgetability" of Tom Bombadil (Elrond and JRRT may both be guilty of this); and then consider the early formation of Tom in Tolkien's work compared to the rather late appearance of Treebeard, both as humanoid Giant, and as the even later Tree Shepherd/ Ent character.

Back soonish!

[fanuidhol]

I am going to go completely outside the box with this theory.

Michael Tolkien was born in 1920. He received the doll, Tom Bombadil when he was a young child, I assume. After John stuffed Tom down the toilet, JRRT created stories and poems about him. 1923 - 1930 or so seems to be a reasonable timeframe for some of these stories.

The Ents did not enter LotR until around 1938. They were later written into The Sil.

Every character in LotR was created after Tom. Even Glorfindel. If I remember correctly, Tolkien just reused the name at first, but, later decided to make the character the same one that was in Gondolin.

I propose that Tom is the eldest -- in Tolkien's imagination.

Fan

[Stormrider]

Fan! Good way to look at it! Now that's settled... ;D

[Andorinha]

Apparently "The Box" includes more territory than one might at first assume...


RE Stormrider's: "Fan! Good way to look at it! Now that's settled..."

See here, Stormrider, you shan't get off that easily! I threatened a two part essay (minimum) and that's what you shall get! Harumpf!

Yes, Fanuidhol has presented us with a perfect mechanism for slicing right through the Gordion Knot of this issue, and Fan, you are not so far out of the box as you might have supposed. LOL, I was going to add this exact element to the arguments: chronologically, Tom Bombadil (who survived a "boating mishap" in a toilette, if I'm remembering the tale correctly) was a long-time, staple character of the Tolkien family. Treebread, both as humanoid giant, and as tree-shepherd Ent, had no existence until late in the writings-revisions of LOTR. I think in this, we are implying (correctly?) a built-in feeling for JRRT that Bombadil's claim to age superiority in the text, is likely to be more credible than any (apparently) contradictory statements by Treebeard.

I think, all kidding aside, that this is a very important matter, and Fan has quite properly brought it to our notice here. I am not quite sure, however, how far we can provably manipulate this chronological superiority of Bombadil's, but I do fully agree: "... that Tom is the eldest -- in Tolkien's imagination." (cf Fan) And I further think that in Tolkien's Middle-earth, JRRT, if forced to choose between his two characters, would himself place the narrative LOTR Tom as being a good deal older than the LOTR character Treebeard. I may even have a quote from the Ole Boy himself to that effect. I'm paging through The Letters now to find the reference...

Next, the "data-base" quotations.

Again, well-reasoned, Fan!