J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide

[fanuidhol]

Hi everybody! Another new one from Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull which I just got yesterday (from of all places -- Walmart.com)!
This is a two volume set that, as I understand it, took many years to complete and get published. Since I just got it yesterday, I can't give a full review, just first impressions.

The first volume is The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide: Chronology. This 996 page book is a biographical resource, including the smallest minutiae of his life. It is organized by date. Personally, I don't need to know when Tolkien sprained his ankle or how many board meetings he attended in any given week. But, on the other hand, the wealth of information that more directly impacted his writing is astronomical. The writers state though that much of JRRT's private life was not included.

The second volume is The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide: Reader's Guide. This 1256 page work is organized as an Encyclopedia. As the writers themselves put in the preface, this volume "comprises a 'What's what', a 'Where's where', and 'Who's who'." (pg xii).

I think it important to note that it is probably better bought as a set than separately. The authors thoughtfully include asterisks in the "Chronology" to alert people that the particular topic is more fully presented in the "Reader's Guide".

Personally, I think this set best serves fans that have already read "Letters", Carpenter's biography, and like to do research....

Did you know that Hilary Tolkien, JRRT's brother, had a dog that was named Bilbo when he was good and Baggins when he was bad?

Fan

[fanuidhol]

A quick amendment to first impression of the JRRT Companion and Guide. Further reading of the preface indicates that the authors wanted to show that Tolkien led an extremely busy life, therefore the inclusion of board meetings, etc. The times of illness and injury were also included to show that the family was beset with these things. I figured there had to be a good reason to include this stuff...I just didn't know what it was.

Also, the Readers Companion is hard to describe. I called it an encyclopedia yesterday because it's format is arranged aphabetically... but, even at 1200+ pages it can't include everything. To give you an idea of the type of stuff it has here is a smattering of topics:

Grahame, Kenneth: brief biography; Tolkien's enjoyment of "Wind in the Willows" books, a mention in a draft of "On Fairy-Stories"; comparison to "The Hobbit"; other comparisons; further reading.

Hope and Despair: Five pages are devoted to this theme as seen in LoTR; a couple of titles for further reading; one paragraph for the Silm.

Imram: a poem written by Tolkien. Publishing history; description; writing history; further reading.

Milford-on-Sea: a one paragraph description about a holiday taken there in 1931.

'Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin': 4 1/2 pages for a summary and history.

You get the idea. Topics vary widely.

Fan

[Stormrider]

Fanuidhol:

Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull are also referenced in my copy of The Annotated Hobbit. I also heard them read their papers at the Tolkien Conference at Marquette University a couple of years ago.

[Andorinha]

Hullo, Fan!

Thanks so much for the excellent reviews here. The two volume "boxed-set" is being sold on Amazon.com for 55 to 66 bucks, so while I am convinced of its utility from your reports, sigh, I may have to wait a bit longer before I grab a set.

Just for fun, could you demonstrate the versatility of this set by checking to see if it has any researchable categories on "Orc redeemabilty," and "Time in Lorien?" It would be handy to have all the references gathered into concise index entries, if that is what these volumes do. If the set is useful in such searches, I may go without my weekly, celebratory restaurant dinners for a month or two and apply the savings here.

THANKS!

[fanuidhol]

Hi Andorinha,
The topic "Time in Lorien" is actually covered in Hammond and Scull's Lord of the Rings Readers Companion. If memory serves me right, there was no new information from unpublished sources nor published material not already discussed in the thread here on Tolkien's Ring.
"Orc redeemability" is a topic wrapped around Orc Origins, wouldn't you say? Both LoTR:Reader's Companion and JRRT Reader's Companion summarize the essays from Morgoth's Ring. No unpublished material was cited. Now if you had asked about William Morris...

Fan




PS
Check your Willam Morris thread.

[Andorinha]

Thanks Fanuidhol!

Sigh... I was hoping for all the loose ends of my Tolkien studies to be nicely tied up in one neat package. LOL!

But, it looks like I'll need to get the "Companion and Guide" set even if it means a forced diet.

Yes, "Orc Origins" seems the key to that sticky problem -- or is it? Even deriving Orcs exclusively from mankind runs into the same problem, doesn't it? Humans have souls, so even the worst, most corrupted are still redeemable? I think JRRT worked himself into a corner here as he tried to make his stories ever more compatible with his RC faith. If you accept one creator God, all beings that have independent wills and a level of sapience must have souls, and beings with souls must have some chance at redemption. This is something I think he tried to avoid with his LotR and later compromises, where he tried to see the LotR trolls as mere "automata," despite the obvious differences that The Hobbit shows us in presenting trolls with minds and individual personalities, having even a touch of pity for the poor "Burrahobbit."

Ah, but there is a section on Wm. Morris! Great! Morris was not so concerned with the strictures of the Christian doctrines, so his "Dusky Folk" could be presented as souless monsters, good only as sword-fodder for his heroes who could slaughter them without any remorse or guilt. In that sense, Morris got the kind of "Orcs" Tolkien originally wanted?

[Stormrider]

I've been reading the Annotated Hobbit and I agree that the Trolls that Bilbo and the Dwarves met were very personable. The Troll in Moria seemed to be under the control of the Orcs and was more of an killing machine.

As far as Orcs go, during King Aragorn's rein, didn't he give them a land of their own to live in? If I remember right, they were to be left at peace to live there and carry on as any race would live in their land.

[Andorinha]

Stormrider, someone should check on this, I'll look it up a bit later if I get the chance, but as I recall the passage, it refers to Aragorn giving Men who had served Sauron, all the land around the bitter sea of Nurn, and nothing was given the remaining Orcs?

[Stormrider]

From "The Steward and the King" chapter of The Return of the King:

In the days that followed his crowning the King sat on his throne in the Hall of the Kings and pronounced his judgements. And embassies came from many lands and peoples, from the East and the South, and from the borders of Mirwood, and from Dunland in the west. And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own.

Didn't the Orcs make up a major portion of the slaves of Mordor? I always thought this statement referred to them!

[Andorinha]

Hmmm. This becomes quite a nasty problem. I never interpreted the relevant passage as referring to the Orcs, probably because I got the impression from an earlier statement that those Orcs who survived the last battle at the Black Gate had simply retired in dismay and shock:

"As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so all the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope." (RotK, 'The Field of Cormallen,' p. 227 in hardback version)

This left some Men of Harad and the East still on the field, some of whom fled, some of whom surrendered, and some of whom still held their ground for a last desperate stand. It was with these surviving Men, and with those slaves of Sauron, Men slaves, who still lived in Mordor, that Aragorn made his treaties and gave lands to them about Nurnen -- or so I thought!

But the statement you quote, Stormrider, does leave an element of doubt here. It does not specifically include the Orcs, but then it does not exclude them either! The Orcs could be viewed as Sauron's slaves, at least some of them (those Goblins living off on their own like the Misty Mountain cave tribes and those said to live far north in the Grey Mountains, seem to have been largely independent of Mordor, but still open to its call. Others, like the Orcs of Mordor itself were more firmly controlled by the Dark Tower, and sometimes called one-another "Snaga," their term for slave. But there were also many Men who had been captured by Sauron who were enslaved in his fleets and probably worked his fields around Nurnen (I can't see Orcs being used as gardeners!) so the term "slave" must refer to a wide mixture of peoples, Orcs, Men, maybe even a few unfortunate Elves and Dwarves?

I always assumed that the new LotR variety of Trolls, Olog-hai, would have dropped witless and died without Sauron to guide them, and apparently many Orcs also died without his presence, the rest fled to hide in deep, dark places. For me, that left the Men slaves as the logical population for the areas about Nurnen, but I do not find any handy statement from JRRT that spells this out. Personally, I doubt that Orcs would be accepted as "ambassadors" at Minas Tirith, and the embassies recognized by King Aragorn seem to be from Harad, the East lands, Mirkwood and Dunland, places where Men lived. I do not recall there being a "colony" or hive of Orcs in Mirkwood though Dol Guldur may be meant here and I assume there were Orcs attached to its garrison?

So, while I cannot say for sure that Orcs were NOT included in the peace dispositions referred to in 'The Steward and the King,' p. 246-47, RotK, I cannot say that they were there either.

Something that might shed some light on this problem may be found in the Letters, especially #153 to Peter Hastings, dated September 1954, just after the first release of LotR. Here the concept of Orcs having "souls" seems to have come up for the first time, and JRRT seems to have been caught off-guard, as if he had not been thinking along these lines at all. But, to keep his Middle-earth philosophies in line with the RC belief system, Orcs as "rational incarnate creatures" would have to be accepted. This implied the existance of Orc souls, and the possibility of redemption. (Letter # 153, p. 190). If Tolkien had made earlier preparations for this idea, he would probably have had to include Orcs in the peace settlement after Sauron's fall. But, not thinking along these lines until after LotR was written and published, I suppose he just did not even consider the possibility. The surviving Orcs simply vanish into the darkness of their caves.

This is a tough one, and I have no definite, JRRT quote supported answer! Maybe some of his later writings, done in the late fifties, the sixties and the seventies would show how his thought was alterring, and might allow us to conclude that Orcs were included in the treaties?

Anybody else have a take on this issue?

LOL, we may need to post copies of these last few messages on the Orc Lore board as well as here!

[Stormrider]

I actually agree with you and find it difficult to believe that ALL different races of slaves of Mordor would be sent off to Lake Núrnen including Orcs, but that is how I interpreted the passage from "The Steward and The King"

I think it would be difficult for all the different races to get along peacfully at Lake Núrnen. The men who were slaves probably did not like the orcs and I am sure the feeling was returned. That in itself might be asking for trouble! Perhaps the land around Lake Núrnen was divided into separate counties for the different races.

It would make much more sense to have Orc live with Orc whether it be in Moria or the Misty Mountains or even whatever places could be recouperated in Mordor.

But as far as the orcs and trolls who fled into dark holes, would Aragorn have allowed them to stay there without trying to make some kind of truce or peace with them? If Aragorn allowed them to stay hidden away somewhere, wouldn't he being taking the chance that years later they would creep out and do harm again? Don't you think he would have tried to make some kind of peace with them? His kingdom was a kingdom of peace and I think he would want to cover all angles in keeping it that way.

I was trying to find some other quotes in my other sources about this, too. I will keep looking.

[Andorinha]

So, what did Tolkien have in mind for the Orcs of the Fourth (and later) ages?

I have a strong suspicion that in his rush to meet the various deadlines for LotR's publication, JRRT did not have sucifficent time to cross all the "Tees" and dot all the "Eyes." Hence, I think he had no plan for King Aragorn, at least where the Orcs were concerned. But, once he had the book in print, and readers started asking questions, then the problem would have bothered him considerably. Being a stickler for consistency and realism, I'll bet he started trying to plot just how the Third Age would alter as it became the Fourth Age, the time for the Dominance of Men. Logically, someway of neutralizing the remaining Orcs would have to be developed. Either assimilation, or wars of extermnation. But l've never seen any sketches for just how the race relations of the new Fourth Age should work themselves out.

Given some statements in the Letters, where Tolkien admits that the Orcs look like/ act like really corrupt humans, he may have been thinking along the line of gradually intermixing Men and Orcs -- as was already being done by Saruman. This scenario would allow JRRT to explain such things as the increasing number and severity of human wars as we move into our own period of history. Perhaps the slaughters of the U.S. Civil War, global imperialism, World War I and World War II occur precsisely because we are, by now, so heavily interbred with the Orcs that we are scarcely any better than the old Goblins themselves.

There should be something addressing this problem in his later letters, I 'll start sifting my way through the research volumes and see if I can find something in JRRT's own thought that would allows us recognize what it was he hoped to do here.

Great ideas, Stromrider. I'll get some sleep and then be back to see what I can find!