Heroic Hobbit? Can it be so?

[MajahTR]

there is an excellant thread on the MSN Hobbit Archive on the Heroism of Hobbits...click HERE!

this thread has a lot of wonderful thought provoking comments on it and it seems to be a good one to continue over here. i will post the into from the original thread and perhaps that will get the brain cells juicy and moving?
(this excellant topic was presented by Fangorn)

Do you think of The Hobbit as heroic quest? Now with the LoTR, Frodo did indeed have a mission of "heroic" proportions. In the Hobbit however, Bilbo's mission started as a burgalar to help recover gold and riches. Could we assume that his quest was not a heroic one? Or perhaps it did not start out heroic, but due to actions that transpire, soon became one? How do we define "Heroic Quest"? Are all elements of the classic "Heroic Quest" the same?

Can you give other examples of Heroic quests, and relate them to The Hobbit? Why are these types of stories so fascinating to readers? Do you feel that alot of our own mythologies and religions use this type of device? Are some of the most ancient stories we have, also quests? I welcome thoughts on this.

Fangorn

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Geez, thread started in May and no posts? We need some more activity in Hobbiton here!

I think of The Hobbit as a heroic quest but not a traditional one by any means. I remember an assignment in high school English where I had to compare the traits of Bilbo Baggins to those of a more classical hero, Beowulf. Bilbo breaks the mold in just about every way-- size, appearance, personality, etc.-- but there were a number of similarities as well.

You can't deny that his actions in the story are heroic. They don't start out that way of course. He was a burglar, he was seeking treasure, and he didn't even particularly want to go on the adventure at first. But there's a moment where all of that ceases to matter. He doesn't even really care about the treasure, it's the experience of it all, the danger and wonder he encounters, and his need for personal growth that leads him to become heroic. When the dwarves shrink in cowardice or get consumed by greed, it's always Bilbo showing the truly noble and selfless qualities.

Why are heroic quests so fascinating to readers? Well, why wouldn't they be? We all love to cheer on the hero, to witness him triumph over great odds, to face perils that we in our humdrum lives can only dream of. But we also love to see elements of ourselves in heroes and imagine that we too could be heroic, even in some small way.

[Desi Baggins]

It is funny how long ago this was started, I must have missed it somehow!

I never thought of The Hobbit as a heroic quest...It seemed more like an adventure, sort of like a pirate story. The quest to find treasure and gain control of it just seems pirate like to me.

Though now that it is mentioned Bilbo does show some hero type traits. Also the Dwarves weren't just stealing treasure they were taking theirs back.

[Stormrider]

It seems more like a revenge story to me. The Dwarves wanted revenge on Smaug for killing their people, taking over their mountain, and stealing their treasures.

Although you can't blame them for wanting to get their home back, it seems strange that they wanted Bilbo hired on as a burglar to steal all their treasures back. Bilbo didn't really start out as a hero since he was coersed into going and doing a job that he had no experience with.

And why in the world would Bilbo even consider it knowing he was going up against a dragon, for goodness sakes?! That just seemed rather foolhardy to me.

There was much adventure that took place during the course of the travel and Bilbo grew in personality, wit, confidence, and bravery. In the end he selfishly traded his part of the treasure to get the dwarves to negotiate fairly with the Lakemen.

So what started out as a foolish mission on Bilbo's part and revenge on the Dwarves, it did end on a more heroic note with the dwarves, elves, men, eagles, etc. joining forces and fighting the orcs and wargs. Bilbo gained so much from his experiences (even though he was invisible and knocked out during the battle) he really was very much a hero in the long run.

They all learned that friendship was more important than the material things so it had a moral theme to it as well.

[Andorinha]

I think the following comments might fit here, "heroic hobbit" indeed, Bilbo is one of the few to face the perils of the Forest Path, even Gandalf and Beorn seem to have found it a daunting barrier...

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"Then they halted, for the wizard and Bilbo would not enter the wood, even though the king bade them stay a while in his halls. They intended to go along the edge of the forest, and round its northern end in the waste that lay between it and the beginning of the Grey Mountains. It was a long and cheerless road, but now that the goblins were crushed, it seemed safer to them than the dreadful pathways under the trees. Moreover Beorn was going that way too." (The Hobbit, "The Return Journey," p. 305 hardback version, my emphasis.)

Were the 13 Dwarves and Bilbo the only ones to use the Forest Path? Even Beorn seems unwilling to travel that way though it provided a much shorter route back home. Did he use that path as the fastest way to get to the Battle of Five Armies?
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This is intriguing, I can understand the northern trek around Mirkwood if JRRT had developed some new adventures for Bilbo up there, or if he had given us (at least) a fuller geographic description of the land that lay between the forest and the Grey Mountains, but we have very little narrative at all here, just the hint that there were "many hardships and adventures before he got back." Apparently, at this point in the narrative, JRRT considered Bilbo's tale of personal development (with the exception of his "auction adventures," the recovery of his property, and his new status as a "strange character" in The Shire) to be complete by the time he started home. All further "adventures" would simply be redundant, and might actually dilute the message Tolkien was trying to illustrate concerning the formation of a "new" Bilbo. Mr. B. Baggins, after The Battle of Five Armies and his reconciliation with Thorin, undergoes no significant personality alterations, or character additions -- so why recount the "pointless," minor scrapes that were incidental to his Shirebound return?

But, it might still be fun to have a detailed record of the adventures that did occur on the "anti-climatic" return trek.

Why avoid Mirkwood? At the time of the publication of The Hobbit, 1937-38, Gandalf was not yet seen as a Maia, an Istari with considerable powers, he was a more commonplace Mortal Man type wizard, quite vulnerable himself (he is actually wounded in the battle, has his arm in a sling) -- the long, dark, suffocating, and unnecessary journey through Mirkwood might well intimidate him. Likewise, was Beorn all that invincible? We have no actual statement from JRRT telling us that Beorn ever used the Elves' old forest path, not even as a short cut to the battle* -- it could be that he too felt intimidated by its ugly course. In a way, this makes the accomplishment of Bilbo and the Dwarves all the more remarkably heroic, they (but only with the assistance of Bilbo's "Lucky Ring") did get through, just barely...

A return trek through Mirkwood would also require dragging along lots of water/ food and then a boat, or the tools to make one -- unless Beorn could leap the stream carrying Bilbo and Gandalf? Could he also leap the stream with their horses/ ponies?** LOL! Would the ponies they rode home have fared well in the forest? Would the ponies have entered the forest at all? No forage for them -- horses do not do well on leafy browse, so lots of fodder must also be carried, and horses require a good deal of clean fresh water daily. An enormous cavalcade, possibly with wagons of water and hay/ oats would be required to cross the forest with ponies.
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* Attempts have been made to figure a "bear's speed daily average" to see if Beorn had the time to join The Battle of Five Armies via a northern, circum-sylvan path, but I don't think JRRT ever considered this detail himself, Beorn simply appears when needed in the story. It is not until LOTR, I believe, that JRRT plotted a daily advance of his characters over the Middle-earth terrain, paying attention to likely distances they could reasonably cover. In The Hobbit, daily marches are more generally sketched-in, nothing unreasonable, but not minutely plotted?

** Gandalf and Bilbo "rode" into Rivendell from the east on their trek homeward. I assume these were horses/ ponies they acquired at Erebor, certainly Beorn would not have loaned them his precious ponies for so long a journey with no hope of recovering them. On pony-back, Bilbo could be expected to keep up with Beorn's pace, as Bear or Man, I should think, so the longer but safer journey around Mirkwood makes more sense. (see The Hobbit, p. 308, hardback version, First paragraph of chapter XIX.)

[Stormrider]

The trip thru Mirkwood always puzzled me, too. Wouldn't going the longer route that was safer be a better route than a dark, eerie, unsure route thru the woods? Considering The Necromancer (Sauron) was residing in Dol Guldor and corrupting the woods should have given Gandalf all the reason in the world to have Bilbo and the Dwarves go the long way around. Why jeopardize their missiion?

Considering the Dwarves were held captive for a week or two, they didn't gain any time by going thru the woods anyway. The longer route around it would have probably been quicker in the end.

But for story-telling's sake, there had to be excitement and adventure and the build up of Bilbo's character which must be the reason for the trip thru the woods instead of around it.

I always wondered why the Elves still lived in Mirkwood. How much longer would Sauron have to have been residing in Dol Guldor before his corruption of the woods would have reached the Elves in the North?