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Dwarves
Jul 9, 2006 17:53:53 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 9, 2006 17:53:53 GMT -6
Dwarves were not actually meant to be created. Ilúvatar was the Lord of all and it was his wish to create the Children of Eä the way he wished them to be. He had plans for Elves and Humans but not Dwarves.
Aulë was the Valar that created things from the substances of Arda. He shaped the lands, mountains, gems, and ores. He was also a smith and master of all crafts.
But Aulë became too excited and did not wish to wait for the Children that Ilúvatar was to bring forth. Aulë did not have any idea what the Children would be like and he knew Melkor was still disrupting Middle-earth.
In his eagerness, Aulë went ahead and created the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in secret in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth. He made them to be strong and unyielding so they could withstand Melkor. Aulë wanted to love and teach the Dwarves to enjoy the beauty of Eä.
When Ilúvatar confonted him and asked why he did it and whether Aulë wanted lordship over the Dwarves. Aulë said he did it because the making of things was in his heart and realized he should not have done it.
Aulë took his hammer to destroy the Dwarves since it displeased Ilúvatar. The Dwarves cringed and begged for mercy.
Ilúvatar allowed the Dwarves to live but they had to sleep in darkness under stones until after the Firstborn awoke on the Earth. Ilúvatar proclaimed he would awaken the Dwarves again when the time was right and that the Dwarves would be as children to Aulë and there would be strife between them and his Children.
Aulë made the Dwarves strong so they could endure. They would be stubborn, stone-hard, fast to make friends or enemies, would withstand hunger and bodily hurts more than other peoples, and live long but not forever.
Aulë told Yavanna about the Dwarves and because he hid his creation of the Dwarves from Yavanna, she claimed that they would not have love for the things that she loved (namely, growing things). She stated they would first love the things made by their own hands (just as their father did) and they would delve in the earth.
When did Ilúvatar call forth the Dwarves from their sleep?
What and how did Aulë teach the Dwarves?
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Dwarves
Jul 10, 2006 10:10:24 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 10, 2006 10:10:24 GMT -6
Thank you Stormrider for starting this thread! Yesterday, I spent my time looking on the Internet and in my books for three subjects: Dwarven history, culture, character traits, etc.Peoples of Middle-earth edited by C. Tolkien, vol 12 or HoMe looks to give me a wealth of info. Of course, the other volumes of HoMe will, too. Just not in "concentrated" form. On line I found a two part discussion by Michael Martinez (he has good points): www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/28918www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/29244/2History of Jews in England, Anti/Anti-Semitism in JRRT's ContemporariesI was positively shocked at what I found on this first site! www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=e2sbd2k9csppt?tname=history-of-the-jews-in-england&sbid=lc11awww.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=1039Thoughts on What Tolkien Might Have Meant by His CommentsI wasn't good at keeping links for this, but a starting point: 64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:L10AZgKhAMsJ:entmoot.tolkientrail.com/printthread.php%3Ft%3D5100%26page%3D1%26pp%3D20+dwarves+%22like+jews%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9The comment from LoserKid (interesting!) but, easterlinge is more what I was looking for. I had planned on making a coherent post to start this off, but (of, course) Andorinha wants to go in another direction! So, this is on hold -- unless someone would like to run with it. And please do! Fan
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Dwarves
Jul 11, 2006 21:31:51 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 11, 2006 21:31:51 GMT -6
Thanks, Stormrider, for starting this thread with a solid exposition from the Silmarillion. This jogged something loose in my memory, and I think it was Fanuidhol who first confirmed that the Aule and Yavanna passage (Sil. pp. 43-46, hb version) was a fairly late addition to the mythology. At least, I think I've got that right...
What that subsequently provoked was the thought (speculative at this point!) that we may actually have several different "types" or kinds of Dwarves depending upon when JRRT was writing a particular passage. I get the feeling that he may have had a Nibelungeleid-style Dwarf in mind (generally bad characters, close to the fairy tale Rumpelstiltskin) when he wrote up the saga of Turin. Then, somewhat later, he had the Dwarves as we find them in "The Hobbit," where their characters are expanded beyond the range of the nasty-selfish Mim. This, I am thinking here, required a new and more definitive origin for the Dwarves, resulting in the Aule and Yavanna chapter with its list of seven houses of Dwarves, one of which (at least) was a fairly positive/ heroic bunch, The House of Durin. When did Tolkien start, even haphazardly, identifying the Dwarves with the Jews? If Mim and the Petty Dwarves were indeed JRRT's earliest examples of Dwarves (something I am not yet sure of), did he -- at this presumedly early time -- connect these nasty-type Dwarves with the Jews? Or, was his connection of Jew and Dwarf from a later period, after the House of Durin had been formed with its more positive and nobler aspects?
LOL -- more questions, and after I read through Fan's citations above, I'll see what facts can be found to support or confound these speculations.
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Dwarves
Jul 12, 2006 6:12:12 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 12, 2006 6:12:12 GMT -6
Andorinha:
Yes, I read somewhere (probably on one of our older threads) that the Aulë and Yavanna chapter was a late addition in The Silmarillion to bring in the origins of the Dwarves and Ents.
I haven't read through many of my HoME books yet but what I am reading from you and Fanuidhol I am getting a good idea about the different types and natures of Tolkien's Dwarves.
I am reading through the links that Fanuidhol has provided (by the way, thank you, Fan!) and want to see just what the connection is for Dwarves and Jews.
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Dwarves
Jul 12, 2006 17:04:36 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 12, 2006 17:04:36 GMT -6
Andorinha wrote: "I get the feeling that he may have had a Nibelungeleid-style Dwarf in mind (generally bad characters, close to the fairy tale Rumpelstiltskin) when he wrote up the saga of Turin." After reading the responses to this thread earlier, I couldn't help but do a little digging. For anything to do with Tolkien's "Lost Tales" period, I run to John Garth Tolkien and the Great War The "sequel" to Turin's story (which became "the Ruin of Doriath") started as "Tale of the Nauglafring". This was "Undoubtedly...to be the 'lost tale' behind the garbled references in Norse myth to the mysterious Brisingamen." Garth pg. 271 Of course, I googled "Brisingamen" and got this (scroll down to Brisings): www.timelessmyths.com/norse/beings.htmlWhat are the general characteristics of Norse Dwarves? Fan
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Dwarves
Jul 13, 2006 3:45:23 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 13, 2006 3:45:23 GMT -6
Just a quick note (maybe...).
RE Fan's: "What are the general characteristics of Norse Dwarves?"
An excellent question.
Now that I think on it, the Norse Dwarves tend to be source specific, that is, depending upon which of the sagas you read, the Dwarf will have a different set of characteristics. In Snorri's Skaldskaparmal, one of the most distinctive of the Dwarfs (not Dwarves here as these are not Tolkien's creatures) in Norse mythology is Andvari (translated, the name means "Careful"). Andarvi is associated with gold, but he is also a "skin-changer," and to avoid capture he turns himself into a fish, a pike. The poor fellow is captured anyway, and all his gold is stolen except for a plain gold ring. When this is also taken, Andarvi has the power to curse the ring so that it will bring nothing but death and discord to those who handle it.
Another peculiar Dwarf, in Helgakvida has the troll-like disability of being unable to withstand direct sunlight. "We surmise that the ray of sunlight shatters the dwarf or turns him to stone, as in many Dwarf legends..." ( John Lindow, Norse Mythology, p. 57)
Elsewhere, Dwarfs become more generic in their characteristics, being usually associated with mining, possessing gold and jewels that they hoard up with the greed of a dragon, and having some sort of special wisdom.
In the Voluspa some of the Dwarfs have dealings with the Aesir gods, including Dwalin, who presents Freya with the Brisingamen, the "fire-frost" stone. It is from the Voluspa that Tolkien picked up many of his Dwarven names. In this source, the Dwarfs are made in "human likeness," and are composed of earth/ rock.
In the catalogue of the Voluspa the Dwarfs are listed as being craftsmen, some working-up implements/ tools/ weapons, while others are artists, crafting poetry. "They are associated with the dead, with battle, with wisdom, with craftsmanship, with the supernatural, and even to some extent with the elves." (Lindow, p. 100)
A group of Dwarfs is associated with the golden hair of a goddess, making a metallic wig for her after she loses her own locks. Reminds me vaguely of Gimli's association with Galadriel's hair, though in the latter case the Dwarf was strictly on the receiving end...
Norse Dwarfs, at least some of them, are magical adepts, capable of teaching potent charms even to the gods. But, usually the Dwarfs are in an ambivalent sort of association with the gods, often quarrelling, sometimes even fighting one another.
"The conception of dwarfs as dwelling in the earth or in rocks or mountains is deeply rooted. (Lindow, p. 101)
In Kevin Crossley-Holland's book, The Norse Myths, he gives us a generic description of the Norse Dwarf personality/ appearance: "The ugly, misshapen dwarfs, represent greed; they do nothing that is not in their own interests. Master-smiths and magicians, quick to show malice, they lust after fair women, after power and, above all, after gold." (intro, p xxxii)
Now, these characteristics are quite similar to the thought of some of the Medieval/ Modern Christians when they persecuted the Jews, and certainly there were Jews living throughout western Europe at the time the Norse sagas were being written down. But, I have never seen a direct reference in any of the sagas that specifically connects the Dwarfs with the medieval perception of Jews.
What would be interesting here, is to find out when Tolkien first made his connection between Jews and Dwarfs, and whether he did so after reading about the Norse Dwarfs and then setting their ascribed traits down for a comparison with the way some English people had been viewing Jews since 1000 AD.
BTW If any of you want a good read that uses a complex mixture of Celtic and Norse themes set in 1950's England, try Garner's "Weirdstone of Brisingamen," a rich mine of real terminologies like Svart alfar, and Lios alfar.
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Dwarves
Jul 13, 2006 15:52:45 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 13, 2006 15:52:45 GMT -6
This is one of Stormrider's posts from the Silmarillion study, and I just wanted to move it here so I do not lose it again because I think it has some very important points I'd like to pursue as time allows:
Stormrider: "Regarding Dwarves though...how did they become petty to begin with?
Aulë created them to be strong and unyielding so that they could withstand Melkor's influence in the world. Remember Aulë was the Valar that made things of the Earth's substances. I can see how they would have a very deep appreciation of gems and fine ores.
I think the story of Mîm might tell us more about how they became petty. Exactly what does Tolkien mean by "petty" anyway? When I think of "petty", I think of unimportant or low status. Is that JRRT's meaning?"
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Dwarves
Jul 14, 2006 6:12:59 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 14, 2006 6:12:59 GMT -6
Andorinha: Thank you for routing my post over here.
I looked up "petty" on Merriam-Webster's online dictionary and here are their definitions:
Etymology: Middle English pety small, minor, alteration of petit 1 : having secondary rank or importance : MINOR, SUBORDINATE 2 : having little or no importance or significance 3 : marked by or reflective of narrow interests and sympathies
Although Dwarves may have had lesser importance in Tolkien's overall tale, he may have been using the 3rd definition for the Dwarves' personalities. "Narrow interests" may have included their love for fine ores and mining, revenge (get the Lonely Mtn back from Smaug), looking out for their interests, etc.
Could the tricky, sneaky, mean dwarf traits fall under the 3rd definition? Were they tricky because they were narrow minded and looking out for their interests?
Here are more definitions of "petty" from Brainy Dictionary.com: Petty -- Little; trifling; inconsiderable; also, inferior; subordinate; as, a petty fault; a petty prince.
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I am still reading the links above and have only been able to read Michael Martinez' first part of "Them Dwarves! Them Dwarves!" However, it is definately interesting! I did not realize there was that much information about Dwarves.
I am going to have to delve into my Lost Tales books and start reading the HOME books I have on my shelf and haven't read. I have them all!
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Dwarves
Jul 14, 2006 13:25:37 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 14, 2006 13:25:37 GMT -6
I have been reading alot of things about Dwarves throughout the HoMe series. Unfortunately, it is mainly out of context, just looking at the pages that the index indicates, and I am getting jumbled up as to which book I read what!
I think Tolkien liked Mim. For one thing, his name never changed! He is present from the first in the story of Turin and what came after (Ruin of Doriath), though some of his functions changed as the story evolved.
Stormrider, The War of the Jewels has an explanation of Petty-dwarves. "Dwarf-let" I guess the definition "minor" or "little" is the answer. But, knowing Tolkien, the use of "Petty-dwarf" instead of "minor-dwarf" was significant and that your other definitions probably influenced the choice of word. "The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven out from the Communities, being deformed or undersized or slothful or rebellious." pg 388. Fan
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Dwarves
Jul 14, 2006 15:25:35 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 14, 2006 15:25:35 GMT -6
Andorinha, Thank-You! for giving us a concise post about the characteristics of Norse Dwarves. From what I have read in HoMe, I can see that Tolkien's earliest conception was very heavily based on the same characteristics except for shape-shifting and turning into stone. At one point, at least, Tolkien's Dwarves were "composed of earth/rock". They could and did curse and were generally evil. I think the final form of Mim got the "leftovers" of the Norse type. The German Jews had relative freedom (compared to the rest of Europe) until 1095 when the First Crusade began. Even though the Christian (catholic) church tried to impose its social and economic sanctions on Jews from the 5th century on, the Germans didn't want to hear it. Many Jews entered the merchant class due to the fact they could get goods internationally. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/germany.htmlI looked at other "Norse" countries at this website, but, other than Norway expelling all non-Christians in 1000AD, there wasn't much evidence of earlier Jewish settlement. Interestingly, this site does maintain a page of anti-Semitic "legends". None of these, however, contained Dwarves. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/antisemitic_legends.html(I am reminded of my Georgia Baptist Grandmother-in-law's legend of Catholics stealing babies to eat them) I found a Grimm's "fairy-tale" which contains a dwarf and a Jew. www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm110.html Fan
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Dwarves
Jul 15, 2006 10:34:39 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 15, 2006 10:34:39 GMT -6
I am working on a hypothesis.
What if Tolkien's early dwarves were inspired by Wagner? The name Mim is too close to the Dwarf named Mime of Wagner's Ring Cycle to be pure coincidence. Bet you knew that, Andorinha!
There is evidence that Wagner was anti-Semitic. Some people perceived that Mime was portrayed as a Jewish stereotype at least as early as 1898. Gustav Mahler, in a letter -- "No doubt with Mime, Wagner intended to ridicule the Jews (with all their characteristic traits--petty intelligence and greed--the jargon is textually and musically so cleverly suggested)." I, also, read that Theodor Adorno writing in the late 1930's also expressed something similar.
The hypothesis: What if Tolkien became aware of this perception of "Jewish Dwarves" and rather than eliminate the "Jewishness" of Dwarves, instead embraced a more positive image?
One problem with this hypothesis is where does Mim fit in? One thought I have is that Tolkien may have wanted to keep an example of a Wagnerian Dwarf as a contrast to his own version. I need to go back and study the character's evolution and when changes took place. Fan
Adding a PS: Found a common source for Mim/Mime in Mimir in the Sagas of Nibelungen
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Dwarves
Jul 16, 2006 1:51:10 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2006 1:51:10 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's "I think the story of Mîm might tell us more about how they became petty. Exactly what does Tolkien mean by "petty" anyway? When I think of "petty", I think of unimportant or low status. Is that JRRT's meaning?" Stormrider, great job of going right to the definitions! Your definition #3. "3 : marked by or reflective of narrow interests and sympathies" seems to me also to be the one Tolkien was mainly using -- the self-centered, self-pitying sort of personality I see most fully developed in Mim. Somehow, Mim reminds me of Gollum, always complaining (rightly or wrongly) that he has been unfairly used... It also sounds like some of Shakespere's characterizations of the Jew Shylock. Like you, I think Tolkien was, most likely, using "petty" as a sort derogatory diminutive, making the sub-race of Dwarves represented by Mim and his sons into thoroughly despicable, selfish characters to be contrasted with the nobler beings, Elves and heroic Men. In this case, I think, despite his protestations (somewhere in the Letters), JRRT was heavily influenced by the Dwarfs in the Nibelungenlied, and Wagner's version of it. A second source for "Mim" and his character, might also be found in the works of William Morris who translated several Old Norse and Germanic sagas into english. "Morris and his Icelandic friend Eirikr Magnusson were the first to translate the Volsunga saga into English; Morris was so enthused by it that he went on to create his own epic retelling of the story, Sigurd the Volsung." ( www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1870/volsungs/index.htm ). I'll see if I can find a "Mim-like" name in Morris. Mim, Mimi, Mimir were all references to the minor god of Memory, associated with Odin. How the name got transferred to a cranky Dwarf, I do not know! __________________ RE: Fanuidhol, "The hypothesis: What if Tolkien became aware of this perception of 'Jewish Dwarves' and rather than eliminate the 'Jewishness' of Dwarves, instead embraced a more positive image?" YES!!! Brilliant Fan (and not just because my less agile brain was stumbling along toward the same conclusion!). I think, Tolkien's earliest works were more closely based on already available sources, like the sagas, the OE verses, and even the secondary treatments of these sources, such as Wagner's (and possibly Morris') re-working of the original teutonic materials. I do know that, in 1938 Tolkien was doing up a "Celtic Styled" romance, tentatively called "King of the Green Dozen,"* but he abandonned it to work on The Lord of the Rings; and certainly the Turin material has strong affinities with pre-existing Germanic-Nordic sagas. So, I think (at first) he picked up not only general themes from these sources, but also the character traits found in them. If some of these characterizations were applicable to various real life groups, he may have used them without giving much thought to the truth or falsity of such stereotypes. Somewhere along the line, Tolkien changed, or became more aware. Dates, dates, dates! They become crucial here, I think. I believe the idea of Mim precedes The Hobbit concept of Dwarves, and is a harsher, more brutal portrayal that later is modified for Bilbo's Dwarves, necessitating some sort of explanation -- hence, the division of the Middle-earth Dwarves into sub-races, the "Petty" and the Grand. This explanation seems to fit Tolkien's usual pattrn of never fully erasing any tale he wrote, just making a few alterations here and there to allow originally independent, or discordant themes to fit at a later time into his over all scheme as it developed through time. The Dwarves of LotR, owe much more to The Hobbit style Dwarves than The Silmarillion Dwarves, and are clearly quite different from the Petty Dwarves. Here, the super work Fanuidhol has just presented, comes into play. I think Fan, that the correlation of Mim, Mime, Mimir is a sound one, one I have seen elsewhere, but it seems to be largely overlooked by the published secondary sources that I have read -- probably beacause they often take JRRT's Letter statements as being far more authoratative than they might really be. When Tolkien says (something to the effect that) "the only similarity between Wagner's Ring and mine is the fact that both are round" I always chuckle a bit -- there are far too many parallells for mere coincidence. When/ why did Tolkien move away from the nasty, selfish, petty Dwarfs? Did he, as you suggest, come to a realization (sometime in the late 20's early 30's) that the stereotypes identifying the worst aspects of Dwarfish nature with the Jews were too hurtful, too baseless, and that the entire system of such thought needed to be ammended or abandonned? Here, did Tolkien originally accept the full, ugly stereotypes, or did he just use the material at hand without stopping to consider the consequences? I am thinking at this point that we might see an evoution in Tolkien's personal worldview, that gradually he moved beyond such anti-semitic virulence as Wagner expressed, and at some time in the late 20's early 30's wished to portray a new type of Dwarf, still somewhat associated with the Jews (as the 1971 BBC statement suggests), but no longer a fully derogatory association. So, the Dwarves of The Hobbit and LotR may still have something "alien" about them, may still have some stereotypes applied to their characters -- but at least they now had a noble aspect as well. They were no longer a monstrous, despicable people, they were simply "different." By the time we get to Gimli, I think Tolkien has a deep respect for his new Dwarves, almost a certain sort of tenderness? At the same time, I got the feeling from JRRT's reactions to the anti-semitism of the Nazis, that he had, by the 1940s, simultaneously developed a profound respect for Jewish culture/ persons -- but still saw them as a "different" sort of people, a separate/ special category. Assuming we have got Tolkien "pegged" rightly here, he becomes, for me a much more respectable "Old Chap." For Tolkien -- born as he was into the classic "high-period" of European racism, the period of Social Darwinism, national chauvinism, and imperialism -- to be able to dissassociate himself from that tradition and move beyond it to a better appreciation of the worth of all peoples, is a highly unusual, and highly creditworthy feat! That he still had some vestiges of stereotyping left in his make-up at the time of his death, does not belittle his achievement. Stormrider and Fanuidhohl: WOW! You two are really coming up with some GRAND and enormously valuable insights/ reference work here -- deeply impressed with youse (you'all) and highly honored to be working with yaz!!! When Desi stops loafing around with her camping, and gets propely back to her books we should get even more stimulation! ______________ * RE "The King of the Green Dozen," if this manuscript still exists, it may give us an idea of just what forms, elements, style etc. JRRT himself considered to Celtic, as opposed to Germanic.
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Dwarves
Jul 16, 2006 6:56:50 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 16, 2006 6:56:50 GMT -6
As you have both pointed out, The Hobbit Dwarves are different from the older Dwarves of The Silmarillion. So Tolkien began writing in the Tale of Aulë and Yavanna to explain the Dwarves and the Ents.
The other Children of Arda (the Elves and Humans) were created by Ilúvatar. They were more fair and refined. Aulë without any concept of what Ilúvatar had in mind, created his own idea of "the children". No wonder they were "different"! It seems the Dwarves were modeled out of the substances of the Earth to give them their durability. Strong and durable children was what Aulë was after anyway so they could live in a world filled with Melkor's distrupting influence. Therefore, they were more rugged and not so pretty as Ilúvtar's Children and their habbits, attitude, and nature was not refined. They were rugged, earth delving creatures built to be strong, outspoken, and geared to look out for their own interests.
I still have not finished reading the links from Fanuidhol. I especially want to get into part 2 of "Them Dwarves!" I wonder if it states anything about how many Dwarves were of the "petty" type and how many were of the "noble" type. I am beginning to think that for the most part Dwarves were more noble than petty. I believe all peoples are more good than evil to begin with and I think that is how Tolkien began to look at them. After all, most of his Elves are good and very few were like Eöl and Maeglin. Most of his Valar and Maiar were good and very few were evil like Melkor and Sauron. Even the Humans were mainly good. It seems there are always a few bad apples in any race.
I want to read the rest of Fanuidhols's links tonight on the Dwarves and also those about Anti-Semitism and what Tolkien meant by his comments. I have a lot of questions about how people pictured the Jews and what the Jews were really like and until I read those links, I don't want to make any comments!
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Dwarves
Jul 16, 2006 10:39:59 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2006 10:39:59 GMT -6
There is an interesting short article by Irmo at valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/m/Mim.htm, that gives the following chronology: Mim, and the evil Dwarves are seen as early as 1915 (Tale of Turambar), while the Tale of Aule and Yavanna, with a more noble form of Dwarf (The Seven Houses) seems first to have been conceived in 1931. I'll have to check on Irmo's date for Aule and Yavanna, as I thought that composition actually came later than The Hobbit.
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Dwarves
Jul 16, 2006 20:31:02 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 16, 2006 20:31:02 GMT -6
Book of Lost Tales II dates "Turambar and the Foaloke" as 1919 (pg 71) so unless new information was found...
I think Andorinha is thinking of the post-LotR addition of Ents to the chapter "Of Aule and Yavanna". Earlier versions of the Origin of Dwarves titled it "Of Dwarves". I am having touble dating this (probably due to my dehydration induced headache. Yes, I am drinking water, lots of water). I'll work in this tomorrow. Fan
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