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Dwarves
Jul 17, 2006 12:25:13 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 17, 2006 12:25:13 GMT -6
As best as I can figure the origin of Dwarves by Aule first appears in HoMe 5 The Lost Road and written approximately mid 1930's. But, in this early version Dwarves did not have spirit/souls. When they died they turned to stone. They had little to no Art. But, it is obvious that in the earlier 1930's, Tolkien was changing his opinion about the role of Dwarves in Middle-earth. They weren't quite so evil and there was more trade. They were not in league with Morgoth. (Shaping of Middle-earth) Now I will start looking for dates concerning the next step in evolution. Fan
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Dwarves
Jul 20, 2006 2:53:37 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 20, 2006 2:53:37 GMT -6
William Morris read, translated, and published some of the Old Norse texts, and the basic characteristics for Dwarfs in his novels follow the types laid out in the sagas: Dwarfs are foul-featured, foul-tempered, great/ magical artificers, always associated with treasure, live in caves, may turn to stone in the sunlight without special precautions, lust after beautiful human women, etc.
As Tolkien read Morris, and the sagas themselves, he probably picked up his first (not so complimentary) views concerning their characters from both these sources. Project Gutenberg has online copies of some of Morris' novels, where his description of Dwarfs is highly prejudicial. But mainly, Dwarfs are creatures of mystery and wonderment. In The House of the Wulfings, Wood Sun, a minor diety, arms her human mate with a chain mail hauberk that is made by the Dwarfs and cannot be pierced by any weapon.
I get the feeling, after seeing how the sagas and Morris treat Dwarfs, that Tolkien adopted their descriptions at first, then turned the Dwarves into quite different creatures as he waded into the writing of The Hobbit.
I'll see if I can find some closer dates, Fan, and I think you may be right about my mixing up the late date of The Ents, with the date for Aule and Yavanna. Thanks!
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Dwarves
Jul 26, 2006 23:58:49 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 26, 2006 23:58:49 GMT -6
As I will be reporting in a more fullsome manner under the topic "William Morris and Tolkien," Morris may have been one of the sources for JRRT's first impressions concerning Dwarf characteristics. Morris, influenced directly by the Norse sagas, depicts Dwarfs as magical folk, fantastic artisans, and clever magicians who are particularly good at casting curses. Dwarfs are further defined as the sometime foes of Men, Gods, and Elves -- but sometimes cajoled or bullied into helping the Gods against the Giants and the fiends of the underworld. Apparently, Dwarfs, sort of like leprachauns, exist to be out-witted and despoiled by Men and Gods alike. In Morris' The House of the Wolfings, we have a Mim or Andarvi like Dwarf who is cheated out a magical artifact by a Goddess:
"Hear then the tale of the Hauberk and the truth there is to tell: There was a maid of the God-kin, and she loved a man right well. Who unto the battle was wending; and she of her wisdom knew That thence to the folk-hall threshold should come back but a very few; And she feared for her love, for she doubted that of these he should not be;
So she wended the wilds lamenting, as I have lamented for thee; And many wise she pondered, how to bring her will to pass... Till she lifted her eyes in the wild-wood, and lo! she stood before The Hall of the Hollow-places; and the Dwarf-lord stood in the door And held in his hand the Hauberk, whereon the hammer's blow The last of all had been smitten, and the sword should be hammer now." (Wm. Morris, The House of the Wolfings, Inkling Books, p 81)
And to make a long poem short, the Dwarf "devoured" the Goddess with his eyes, and promised her the Hauberk, which would keep her mortal lover safe from all battle harm, if she would "Come lie in mine arms! Come hither, and we twain the night to wake! And then as a gift of the morning the Hauberk shall ye take." (Wolfings, p. 81)
The Goddess agrees, but slips the poor satyric Dwarf a "mickey," leaving the paralysis-bound Dwarf to mumble a curse that suffuses the Hauberk. It will protect the wearer, by making him such a coward that he faints in battle and so cannot come to harm. "I lay this curse upon it, that whoso weareth the same, Shall save his life in the battle, and have the battle's shame; He shall live through wrack and ruin, and ever have the worse, And drag adown his kindred, and bear the people's curse." (Wolfings, p. 81)
The greedy, grasping, lecherous nature of the Dwarf is available then to JRRT, from both the Norse sagas themselves, and from this lighter bit of reading that Tolkien, in his letters, claimed as one of his inspirational texts.
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Dwarves
Jul 14, 2016 13:28:55 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 14, 2016 13:28:55 GMT -6
I thought this was kind of interesting. I was searching for information on how many children dwarves had in their families. It is an essay trying to figure it out. With the ratio of females to males and how many would actually marry and bear children is fun to read through the thinking process. It would seem the Dwarves would eventually diminish completely (Which I guess they did finally in the end!)
thorinoakenshield.net/2013/07/07/essay-dwarven-demographics/
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Dwarves
Jul 17, 2016 11:40:51 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 17, 2016 11:40:51 GMT -6
Drat -- my server cannot open the url you provide, Stormy. Hmm, does sound interesting, with only (I think) 1 female to every 3 male dwarves, the species would be in trouble. Maybe this is why Jackson has Elf-Dwarf romances?
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Dwarves
Jul 17, 2016 12:21:45 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 17, 2016 12:21:45 GMT -6
okay pasted it here:
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Dwarves
Jul 18, 2016 8:19:06 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 18, 2016 8:19:06 GMT -6
Thanks, Stormy, this time the url worked so I got to see the illustrations as well as read the text. I'm trying to recall now whether the old Norse sagas/ tales ever mention female dwarfs/ dwarves at all? A quick "google:" "Dwarfs in folklore are usually described as old men with long beards.[12] Female dwarfs are hardly ever mentioned. Dvalinn the dwarf has daughters, and the 14th-century romantic saga Þjalar Jóns saga gives the feminine form of Old Norse dyrgja, but the few folklore examples cited by Grimm in Teutonic Mythology may be identified as other beings.[13][14] However, in the Swedish ballad "Herr Peder och Dvärgens Dotter" (Swedish 'Sir Peder and the Dwarf's Daughter'), the role of supernatural temptress is played by a dwarf's daughter." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(mythology)Underlining mine. The name Dvalinn is just an alternative spelling for Dwalin, brother of Balin -- so Tolkien would have had a chance here to add a few female dwarves to his story and still be true to the Norse tales. But, I do not recall any such daughters ever being mentioned in any of the main trilogy volumes, The Hobbit, or the HOME volumes...
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Dwarves
Jul 18, 2016 11:50:05 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 18, 2016 11:50:05 GMT -6
This is quoted from the above essay:Were you able to see the lovely pictures of the Dwarf girl and Dwarf woman. Not at all in accordance with the description above!
The essay says only a third were women and not all of them decided to marry or have children. It is almost as if the dwarves would have to have large families in the hopes that one of them would be a female so eventually she could carry on the family growth. I don't think I would like to have to be expected to marry and have children and cannot blame any females for deciding against having children.
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Dwarves
Jul 18, 2016 20:03:25 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 18, 2016 20:03:25 GMT -6
Yes, saw the pictures of "Dwarf-Girl," and "Dwarf-Woman." Yeah, they looked a good bit more feminine than I expected from Tolkien's description...
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Dwarves
Jul 19, 2016 9:47:31 GMT -6
Post by fanuidhol on Jul 19, 2016 9:47:31 GMT -6
A few thoughts: We know that Elves were created to give Tolkien's "Elvish" languages a culture in which to thrive. I think it goes without saying, this was Tolkien's main love and focus. Dwarves were created, first as evil beings, then evolved into The Hobbit's Dwarves. Then, their secret language which was not spoken in front of outsiders was created if I remember rightly. Tolkien did not spend much time developing their language and therefore, may have intentionally? given Dwarves a dying culture in order to not have to expand their language. By reducing the amount of pregnancies possible, he didn't have to create a mass extinction event - war or disease.
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Dwarves
Jul 20, 2016 7:54:54 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 20, 2016 7:54:54 GMT -6
RE Fan's: "Tolkien did not spend much time developing their language and therefore, may have intentionally? given Dwarves a dying culture in order to not have to expand their language. By reducing the amount of pregnancies possible, he didn't have to create a mass extinction event - war or disease." Hmmm, intriguing take on the matter. Tolkien, in several comments from The Letters, seems to have had a Jewish-Semitic tie in mind for his Dwarves,* and to my knowledge, he never dabbled much in semitic languages. Possibly this is why he never put much time into the development of Khuzdul? If he had taken some courses in either Arabic or Hebrew, maybe his dwarvish tongue would have been better addressed, and he would have had a "stake" in keeping their culture viable? In Tolkien's era of development, 1900-1940, many in the mainstream Christian communities felt that "Jewishness" (whatever was meant by that term!) was waning, and that, as a viable People and Culture, the Jews could be expected to gradually wither away, and be absorbed into Christian and perhaps Muslim societies. I wonder if Tolkien had imbibed this idea? Of course, with the foundation of Israel, and the growth of the United States Jewish communities, the viability of a recognized "Jewish" identity seems now well established, despite the World War Two atrocities of the Holocaust. Maybe, from a current perspective on Jewish continuity, JRRT would have made the viability of his own Dwarvish culture a more certain priority? * From a BBC interview 1971: “I didn’t intend it, but when you’ve got these people on your hands, you’ve got to make them different, haven’t you?” said Tolkien during the 1971 interview. “The dwarves of course are quite obviously, wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic. The hobbits are just rustic English people,” he said. www.timesofisrael.com/are-tolkiens-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jews/
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Dwarves
Jul 20, 2016 13:13:53 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 20, 2016 13:13:53 GMT -6
Thanks, Stormrider, for starting this thread with a solid exposition from the Silmarillion. This jogged something loose in my memory, and I think it was Fanuidhol who first confirmed that the Aule and Yavanna passage (Sil. pp. 43-46, hb version) was a fairly late addition to the mythology. At least, I think I've got that right... What that subsequently provoked was the thought (speculative at this point!) that we may actually have several different "types" or kinds of Dwarves depending upon when JRRT was writing a particular passage. I get the feeling that he may have had a Nibelungeleid-style Dwarf in mind (generally bad characters, close to the fairy tale Rumpelstiltskin) when he wrote up the saga of Turin. Then, somewhat later, he had the Dwarves as we find them in "The Hobbit," where their characters are expanded beyond the range of the nasty-selfish Mim. This, I am thinking here, required a new and more definitive origin for the Dwarves, resulting in the Aule and Yavanna chapter with its list of seven houses of Dwarves, one of which (at least) was a fairly positive/ heroic bunch, The House of Durin. When did Tolkien start, even haphazardly, identifying the Dwarves with the Jews? If Mim and the Petty Dwarves were indeed JRRT's earliest examples of Dwarves (something I am not yet sure of), did he -- at this presumedly early time -- connect these nasty-type Dwarves with the Jews? Or, was his connection of Jew and Dwarf from a later period, after the House of Durin had been formed with its more positive and nobler aspects? LOL -- more questions, and after I read through Fan's citations above, I'll see what facts can be found to support or confound these speculations. This was from Andorinha earlier in this thread! My bold above gets me thinking about the Dourhand Dwarves in LOTRO! I think that Dwarves in general (not necessarily the nasty ones) may have been connected with the Jews. Dwarves are hardy, sturdy, adaptable, and quite resourceful. I think that is a good link to what I see in the Jewish people and perhaps what Tolkien did, too.
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