|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 4, 2004 5:20:56 GMT -6
Just what was the One Ring? What was its purpose(s), what was its nature, how did it work, and what did Sauron gain or lose by its existence?
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 4, 2004 13:22:15 GMT -6
Did the One Ring Enhance Sauron's Power?
An interesting question here concerns just what the Ring ever gave to Sauron? Was his overall power actually enhanced by the Ring? I do not recall Tolkien ever addressing this particular point (but maybe he does somewhere in note or a letter?).
The Three Elven Rings did, I think, actually make their keepers stronger than they were before they got them, but did the One Ring similarly enhance the might of Sauron? I am not sure...
Sauron's Ring was made primarily/ only to dominate the other rings, It was not made to boost the Dark Lord's overall power status, just make it more focusable upon that single task of controlling all the other rings. In order for It to achieve this task, Sauron had to expend a great deal of His original energy and dimish His innate might by bleeding a "great part" of His own power into this new device. I am only speculating here, but I assume (if Tolkien is playing fair with the physics of Middle-earth) the net result of Sauron's Ring would have been a fragmentation of his original Maia strength. Part of the energy in the Ring would have to be constantly on guard to control the Nazgul, to affect the Seven Dwarven rings, and to hold in check the powers of the Three.
Far from strengthening Sauron's hand, the Ring provided a convenient target for his enemies, Its existence weakened His remaining powers, and It became His greatest point of vulnerability. Sauron's Ring, was his Achilles' Heel. Even with the thing on his hand, he was still overpowered by just two Elves and two Men on the slopes of Orodruin. Apparently the transferal of this power into the One Ring, had significantly weakened Him, not strengthened Him.*
I think also, the transfer of Sauron's power into the Ring was irreversible -- or the process of "re-sorbing" that power was so difficult and tedious a chore that when The Dark Lord lost the Ring to Gil-Galad, Elendil, Elrond and Isildur, He was unable to transfer the Ring's power back into Himself, and He was turned into a diminished "spirit of malice" that could not take physical form for almost three thousand years.
If Sauron had succeeded in regaining the One Ring at the end of Frodo's Quest, I think the Ring on His Dark Hand would have done nothing more than restore him to His former Second Age might; But I do not see that It could have given Him any more power than He had at the time when Isildur took It from him. So, even with the Ring, Sauron would be no more than a single Maia whose original power was still divided into His personal power and the Ring's power.
_______________
*It is important to keep the movie version of Sauron's Ring Loss separate from the account as it is given in JRRT's books. In the movie one can assume that an all-powerful Sauron -- His Ring flashing Its red warning letters to all -- has lost his Ring more by accident than force when Isildur slashes (in desperation) at the grasping hand of the Dark Lord.
In the book version, Sauron, while the Ring is on his hand, is wrestled down by Gil-Galad and Elendil (who die soon after from the burns they receive from Sauron). Isildur then, deliberately kneels over a defeated, exhausted Sauron, and cuts the Ring from the Dark Hand, taking It by FORCE. Sauron, even with His Ring, cannot keep Himself from being "Elf-and Man-handled."
|
|
|
Post by Fangorn on Dec 4, 2004 20:28:20 GMT -6
Some great ideas here! Lets examine one point. If I understood you correctly, the Elven rings did increase the power of the 3 Elves weilding them. Where did THAT extra power come from? Sauron never touched them, so it is unlikely that his power had anything to do with it. So to extrapolate that idea, the forging of the rings themselves and the magic used MUST add power to the user.
That means that Sauron also was increased in power by the ONE ring. It is understood and widely read that he poured alot of his own power into the ring, but as you suggest, is was probably more to dominate the other rings.
During the fight with Sauron in the second age, the 3 rings were probably in most active use. I would think this would have alot to do with a balance of power in such a battle.
Just to clarify, does anyone have the whereabouts of the 3 during that battle? Their use during that battle may explain much of your quandry.
Next, since he was foolish enough to pour his power into the ONE, for subjugation purposes, it stands to reason, that it's loss would weaken him greatly.
Just some musings on my part, but I at least hope I gave some things to think about!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 5, 2004 7:36:30 GMT -6
Fangorn: I've always understood that the Three Elven Rings were hidden from Sauron when the Elves realized that The One Ring was controlling them. I doubt that the Elves would have been wearing them in the Battle of the Alliance of Men and Elves when Sauron was defeated. I believe the Elves only put them back on once The Ring was cut from Sauron's hand and his spirit took flight to rebuild its strength.
Andorinha: Which book and chapter did you get your information on Gil-Galad and Elendil holding Sauron down and Isildur deliberately kneeling down and cutting The Ring off? I would like to read that passage because I don't recall it! (Old age)
On my Peoples of Middle Earth thread about Aragorn, I had made a point of Aragorn using his will to wrench the palantír to his purpose and to show Sauron that he held Elendil's sword reforged again. With what you have stated here about the might of the Elfs and Men handling him, seeing Aragorn, Isildur's heir, with Elendil's sword would certainly put fear into Sauron, especially in his weakened state!
The Three Elven blades were made by the Elves, however, and they were able to put added power into these Rings. Sauron's Ring was made by him and being a Maiar, I would think that he would have been able to give himself more power through it, too, but whether he did or not, I can't remember. I would be surprised that he would not add extra power to it if he had the opportunity to do so. If you were in the ring forging and empowering stages up on Orodruin, wouldn't you give it all the power you could, especially if you wanted to dominate and control all?
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 5, 2004 8:49:02 GMT -6
Stormrider: There are several passages that give this information, or at least bits and pieces scattered among the quotes (see LotR, "Council of Elrond," p. 260, and appendix B, date 3441) but the fullest rendering is in The Silmarillion, paperback ed, p. 365:
"But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."
LotR "Council of Elrond, p. 260 Omnibus ed: Elrond says: "I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand..."
LotR "Council of Elrond, p. 270, from the record of Isildur: "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed...
From these quotes I get then: Gil-galad and Elendil actually closed with and wrestled Sauron down, but died in the process, by burns from Sauron. Isildur then took the Ring from a Sauron who was no longer effectively able to resist, or surely he would have similarly burned Isildur to death as well? I am assuming that "thrown down," in the context of "wrestling" means Sauron was left stretched on the floor after his exertions with Gil-galad and Elendil, and I assume Isildur would then have to kneel or bend over that Dark Body to get at the Ring...
Off to get my first breakfast, but I'll be back later with some thoughts on the further points raised by both Fangorn and you, Stormrider.
|
|
|
Post by Fangorn on Dec 5, 2004 16:37:49 GMT -6
SR, you are prolly right about the Elven rings not being used in the battle. So, I guess the next theory to explain Sauron's overthrow, was that the power of the Elf Lords and the blood of Numenore, was greater in that age. Plus, Andorihna's caution to avoid the movie images in their entirety, may not be correct. I just read his post citing how the battle was fought, and they still do not discount Isildur's luck in having the chance to cut the ring from his finger. With Elendil and Gil-galad down after wrestling with Sauron, who seemingly was also down, a quick move by Isildur to seize the hilt, and cut the ring, could have occured. He may not even have gotten close to Sauron's body to be injured from the heat. Or, at least, not fatally.
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 7, 2004 3:44:11 GMT -6
Bits and Pieces:
RE: Where were the Three during the Orodruin Battle (3441 Second Age)?
1. The Three Rings were made about the year 1590 of the Second Age, and, as Stormrider reports, they were long "hidden" and "unused." There may be a real problem here, an inconsistency that I don't think JRRT ever makes plain. If the Three could not be used from 1600- 3441 SA, how did Galadriel establish the special domain of Lothlorien? We are told in LotR that the Ring Nenya is largely responsible for the preservation of "Time and Light" there, so Lorien must not have been a very special Elven Hold until the Third Age?
I do not know why, but I always had the feeling that Lorien (as a very special Elven place) was much older than a Third Age foundation would suggest. I guess that, before 3441 TA, Lorien was just like the Greenwood Realm, or the area of Lindon ruled by Gil-galad. So, does anyone know when JRRT dates the founding of Lothlorien as the Ring-sustained, Elven Home in Middle-earth, a place where even The Fading was held at bay?
2. The Silmarillion mentions that in the Third Age times it became known that the Three Rings had been entrusted to Gil-galad, Cirdan, and Galadriel. At the time of the Seige of Barad-Dur, Gil-galad, to safeguard Vilya, gave it to Elrond (see LotR, Appendix B Third Age: "Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond..." P 1122). This bit of information troubles me. As Stormrider points out, the Three Rings were of no practical use until the One was taken from Sauron. So, did Gil-galad actually take Vilya into battle, into the shadows and hazards of Mordor? This seems remarkably foolhardy! Did he give Vilya to Elrond right there, near the Cracks of Doom as he lay dying after his fight with Sauron? Or, did he pass it to Elrond long before the Orodruin conflict, and what then did Elrond do with it?
Since both Gil-galad and Elrond were present on Orodruin when the fight with Sauron took place, could Elrond have carried it there? That would seem equally foolhardy, especially since, as Stormrider points out, it could not be used while Sauron still had the One. Why take Vilya where it might be captured, and why would Gil-galad give it up to Elrond (supposedly to protect it from such hazards) only to have Elrond bring it into Mordor anyway?
I can only imagine that Elrond must have received Vilya a goodly time before the 10 Years Seige of Barad-Dur, and that he left it behind in Imladris, or maybe somewhere in Lindon? He could not have left it with Cirdan, as this master boat-builder was also at the Orodruin battlefield in 3441 SA -- according to one passage in the Silmarillion,"Of the Rings of Power," p. 366, and a further statement in LotR, "The Council of Elrond."* So, where were Narya and Vilya if their Keepers were in Mordor?
3. RE: Fangorn -- "So to extrapolate that idea, the forging of the rings themselves and the magic used MUST add power to the user. ... That means that Sauron also was increased in power by the ONE ring."
This is an excellent countering point, Fangorn, and I am only able to speculate here as I can find no quotes from JRRT to cover this detail. The Three Rings were not made by their final Keepers. They came as fully created units from Celebrimbor and the associated Elven Mirdain (jewel-smiths). So Gil-galad, Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond, and Gandalf would receive their rings as additives to their own innate powers. None of these ring bearers had to put any of their own energy (so far as Tolkien tells us) into the making of these Three. What cost the making of the Three posed for Celebrimbor, I cannot say, perhaps, if the Three cost him some of his personal power, their limited designs as preservation/ healing machines would be far less energy expensive than the "domination power" Sauron had in mind?
Sauron's One Ring is, I think, quite a separate issue. He made it Himself, and He had to pour a significant amount of His original power into its creation. He had to further strengthen the One Ring with even more power to make it capable of overwhelming and controlling, not only Itself, but ALL of the other Rings of Power simultaneously. These power expenditures came directly from Sauron Himself, we are told in The Silmarillion "Of the Rings of Power in the Third Age," and in various LotR passages. While Sauron holds the One Ring, some of his former power is busy guarding and controlling the other rings, a net loss in the power once available to Him. Some power must also be lost in just keeping the structure of the One Ring intact. In real life, one never gets full mechanical efficiency out of any engine or device. Tolkien was careful to never use "magic" beyond the realm of physics, so I think it unlikely that he would cheat us here and "sub-create" a device that transgressed the physics he had put into Middle-earth. Therefore, making the One Ring, and keeping it in working order would both be net losses of Sauron's original power.
When Sauron wore the Ring, he was at his most powerful, but still less powerful (I think!) than he had been before he made It at such great cost to Himself. When Sauron was not wearing the Ring, he was much weaker than he had originally been, and when it was actually taken from Him, and claimed by another (Isildur) the shock and loss were great enough to throw Him out of Shape for 2500 years.
Keep in mind that even when a relatively weak individual Hobbit, Frodo, claimed (not merely wore) the One Ring, the foundations of Barad-Dur began to totter. So, apparently, Sauron was left after the creation of His Ring, in a very finely-balanced and precarious state of personal power. (see LotR, "Mount Doom," p. 981: "And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own...")
Why did Sauron make His One Ring, if it was to cost Him so much, and leave Him so vulnerable should it ever be lost? I think Sauron had no choice. If he wanted to control Elves, Men, and Dwarves, he had to act quickly when the rings were newly made and before their special powers could substantially strengthen the Elves and their Allies. I think, in his egotism, He probably never envisioned that He could ever lose the Ring. So, he needed a special weapon/ tool to subvert and control ALL the rings, and the One Ring allowed Him to do just this -- but at a greater cost to his own power than he realized at the time.
Does this make sense? I cannot find quotes to back up this speculative account, but I hope it is at least logical! So, you are very correct, Fangorn, to point out that I might have it all wrong in the absence of any definitive statement from JRRT!
4. Stormrider: RE -- "Sauron's Ring was made by him and being a Maiar, I would think that he would have been able to give himself more power through it, too, but whether he did or not, I can't remember. I would be surprised that he would not add extra power to it if he had the opportunity to do so. If you were in the ring forging and empowering stages up on Orodruin, wouldn't you give it all the power you could, especially if you wanted to dominate and control all?"
This is also an excellent countering point! Here, I am forced back onto speculation again! When the Elves first started the Ring Technology I got the impression -- from the way JRRT handled the situation of ring-making -- that there were real limits to how "powerful" a ring of power could be made. Sauron, being Himself so much more powerful than any of the Elves in Middle-earth, would naturally be able (once he got the hang of it) to make His Ring the most mighty of them all. But even He had limits he could not exceed. If He could have made a Ring more powerful than the One he actually did make, I'm sure he would have. But he expended as much of His original energy as He thought commensurate with His own safety. He had to give the Ring a certain level of power, or it would fail to act as a good controlling device. But if He gave it too much power, perhaps He Himself would have failed? What is the good of making a gun so terrifically huge that you cannot find enough strength left to pull its trigger? LOL!
But, honestly, without more detailed data from Tolkien, my little essay, as you and Fangorn have both noted, involves us in several layers of supposition, assumption, and guess!
______________
*"The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand..." Sil 366.
The LotR version of the final fight, also mentions Cirdan as being in that battle as Elrond says: " 'Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood and I." ("Council of Elrond," p. 260, Omnibus ed)
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 7, 2004 6:33:35 GMT -6
Celebrimbor forged Narya, Nenya, and Vilya "alone and the hand of Sauron never touched them yet they also were subject to the One." ( The Silmarillion Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age). The Elven Rings were given to the Elven Wise "who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring." (bold my emphasis) What does openly mean? Does that give us an "opening" to suppose that the Elven Rings were used? But that would have been folly....surely Sauron would have been able to locate the wearer and the ring if it had been used. Ok....Galadriel did not receive her ring until after the Elves fled from Sauron taking the rings with them, correct? Could it be possible that another Elf might have used Nenya to beautify Lothlórien before Sauron finished forging his Ruling Ring? And don't forget about The Elessar....see my post on the "Special Light of Lorien" thread. Ratts! I have to close for now....I have to head to work. I do have some more comments to make.
|
|
|
Post by Fangorn on Dec 7, 2004 19:50:36 GMT -6
Okay, here is a thought also. We know as per Tolkien verbatim, the ONE could control all. But did he mean ALL AT ONCE? If ALL 3 Elven rings were used against him in the final battle, could he have controlled them all? It seems most of Saurons conquests used trickery and deceit, not out-right battle. Since there is no cannical support all we can do is provide conjectures....
|
|
|
Post by Fangorn on Dec 7, 2004 19:55:21 GMT -6
addendum.....not to mention, the Elf rings were controlled by very powerful Elf Lords in their own right.......not just kings of mortal men or dwarf lords in halls of stone....dangerous opponents,even without rings of power......
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 8, 2004 23:58:00 GMT -6
Hold The Presses!!! This Just In:
Letter #131, to Milton Waldman, with the significant passage being found on page 153.
"He [Sauron] rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dur in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring. But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and a very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it."
The bold-faced portion of the above quote, does at least tell us one thing for certain in this discussion, however much energy Sauron bled into the Ring to create It, while he wore It, he did get more power from It than he once had originally, or so I interpret this.
Of course, this does not alter my statements regarding the limits of that power (or does it?). Keep in mind that Sauron, in 3441 SA, HAD the Ring on his hand, and was at his mightiest, when he was overpowered by just two Men and Three Elves -- powerful Elves, powerful Men, to be sure, but not, I think, as powerful as even the least of the Valar? So I think we still run up against this limit, Sauron + Ring might be more powerful than he was originally, but he still could not hold his Ring by force against the vastly inferior might of the Elves and Men (inferior when compared to the might of the Valar).
********
Another point the Letter quotation brings to mind, is a possible inconsistency: Sauron is supposedly in "rapport" with the Ring so long as it existed. So why does Gandalf tell Frodo that Sauron once believed the Ring to have been destroyed?
" 'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He [Sauron] believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found.' " (LotR, "The Shadow of the Past," p. 65 Omnibus ed)
If Sauron was so closely bound up with the Ring, wouldn't he have known whether or not it was still extant? Wouldn't Sauron have a "power surge" each time one of the new keepers took the thing off, put it in a drawer, envelope, etc? How long did the Ring lie in the Goblin tunnel before Bilbo picked it up, apparently "unowned," unpossessed, unclaimed? Sauron seems to know, from a great distance, when Frodo wears the Ring briefly at Ammon Hen, so we do have a demonstration of His continued rapport with the thing. So just why does Gandalf say Sauron once thought it destroyed? LOL!
|
|
|
Post by Andorinha on Dec 9, 2004 2:25:34 GMT -6
Stormrider: Yes, this "openly" codicil has bothered me for many years... Just how does one wield a Ring of Power in an "unopen" manner? Certainly if Galadriel had used Nenya in the Second Age to fence off Lothlorien, the spies of Sauron would soon know about it, even if He did not read so great a use of power through His One Ring.
Unfortunately, Unfinished Tales, and The Silmarillion are very tight-lipped about who had the Three between 1590 and 3441, the end of the Second Age. I have not been able to find any more intelligence on this matter than that given in Sil "On the Rings of Power in the Third Age," where it just says no one knew where they were hidden until late in the Third Age. Who else (other than Galadriel) could have used Nenya to "beautify" Lothlorien without someone knowing about it? Sauron should have been able to detect anyone using the Ring of Adamant that "openly."
Here, the original Elessar, might be a good stop gap measure to allow Lothlorien's special preservative nature to be started even in the Second Age, but if Gandalf brought it with him from Valinor as a gift from Yavana, he could only have given it to Galadriel after the year 1000 of the Third Age, when he and the other Istari first show up in Middle-earth about the time that the Shadow first falls on Greenwood the Great (this shadowfall is given as 1050 TA in Appendix B, p. 1122 Omnibus ed. -- and we know from The Silmarillion, p. 372 PB, "Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari..."). This means that the use of the Elessar to "beautify" Lothlorien would be even later than the potential time (3441 Second Age) when Nenya would be free of the One Ring's domination.
I suppose it is just possible that Celebrimbor's second Elessar might have been available at some time in the Second Age, but its powers are never convincingly portrayed as being great enough to accomplish the deed of creating Lothlorien, are they? Certainly by the time Celebrian gets the second Elessar, and then it comes to Arwen and eventually Aragorn, there is no great concern among the Elves that an heirloom of GREAT power is being passed from hand to hand out there in the Wilderness. Something capable of creating the special nature of Lothlorien would surely be kept closer to the centers of Elven power, and in more secure Elven hands? Galadriel never even thinks of giving her Ring away, it is too mighty, too much the cornerstone of her power in Lorien. So I guess I just don't see the second Elessar as being capable of creating the special nature of Lorien...
******
Fangorn: Yes, especially now that I ran across Letter #131, the power qoutient of Sauron may have to be adjusted upwards, but not a whole lot, because, even with the One Ring enhancement, he still gets mauled by Three Elves and Two Men. I agree that these five were probably the most mighty characters left in Middle-earth (excluding Tom Bombadil and Sauron -- and it would be another 1000 years before Gandalf and the Istari show up) but I think this merely shows that Sauron, even with his Ring, was not all that powerful!
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 9, 2004 6:35:30 GMT -6
Perhaps the power of evil is not nearly as strong as the power of good. Maybe with the enhancement of The Ring's powers, Sauron was just coming level with the High Elven kind. But still he is a Maiar which should have been higher than even the High Elves, correct? At one time he was a good Maiar and therefore he would have been higher, but once he turned to evil ways, his power level dropped?
Even Gandalf is a Maiar and he seems to have his limitations. He seems to fear confronting Sauron himself--or at least he feared meeting up with the Balrog and Sauron is much more powerful than the Balrog.
Well dang, that would null my theory that the power of evil is not as strong as the power of good, wouldn't it? Because if Gandalf on the side of good was stronger to begin with, he should have been able to defeat Sauron. But wait...Gandalf was not to interfer in this battle against Sauron himself, he was to unite the free peoples of Middle-earth to battle Sauron themselves.
|
|
|
Post by Stormrider on Dec 9, 2004 6:44:19 GMT -6
I guess my dates and timelines are off as far as The Elessar is concerned. That whole chapter in Unfinished Tales was never finalized and we are still not sure whether there was only one Elessar or two. It did not seem that the second one had as much power as the first one, I agree with you there, Andorinha.
Wasn't there another Lórien mentioned in The Silmarillion? It was a garden of the Vala Irmo in Valinor. Míriel/Serindë went there after she gave birth to Fëanor. It was a place to heal and ease weariness.
Could it be the same place but different age? Could the shifting of the world land masses have moved it? But if that were so, what would have become of Irmo?
I am probably just going off on a tangent now!
|
|
|
Post by Desi Baggins on Dec 10, 2004 19:12:30 GMT -6
As far as Gandalf saying that Sauron once thought the Ring destroyed....
Sauron may have once thought the Ring destroyed, but then he found as time went on that he could sense when the Ring was worn by someone or not and as time went on this sense enhanced. Which would explain why when Gollum had the Ring on or off maybe Sauron didn't realize it and when Frodo had it on or off Sauron knew right away.
|
|