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Post by Stormrider on Dec 16, 2004 19:32:56 GMT -6
Frodo was also getting closer to Mt. Doom where the Ring was forged. It was getting stronger the closer it got to it and could probably send out stronger vibes to Sauron, too. It wanted to be found by Sauron whose powers had been poured into the Ring.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 4, 2005 7:26:56 GMT -6
Desi stated:
After The Ring was cut from his hand, Sauron was greatly diminished and had to regain his power and shape slowly. Perhaps he could not sense The Ring's essence while he was recooperating. But I can't believe that Sauron would have thought The Ring was destroyed, because all of Mordor, the Ringwraiths, and Sauron himself were obliviated when Frodo, Sam, and Gollum destroyed it. If The Ring had been destroyed as Gandalf said, then Sauron would have been destroyed with it!
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jan 4, 2005 9:22:03 GMT -6
But with all new experiments you don't know what will happen until it does......No one knew what would happen when the Ring was destroyed...
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 23, 2007 6:41:48 GMT -6
The title, "Lord of the Rings," I think this counts as a Middle-earth "Thing," anyway, I can find no other place to tuck it in... The more I read of the Norse sagas, the more I see how vitally they impacted Tolkien's Middle-earth tales. From "The Story of Burnt Njal," (Njal's Saga) we have the following: Once I ween I heard the rumour, How the Lord of rings bereft thee; From thine arms earth's offspring tearing, Trickfull he and trustful thou. Then the men, the buckler-bearers, Begged the mighty gold-begetter, Sharp sword oft of old he reddened, Not to stand in strife with thee. (Njal's Saga, section 23, emphasis mine) omacl.org/Njal/2part.htmlThe "Lord of the Rings," is itself an old Norse "kenning," a phrase that stands for something else, as the term "sea plow" stands for a ship, and "flesh biter" means a sword. In this case, a "lord of rings" was a man who stood as a master to other men, a mighty leader who had sufficient wealth that he could distribute rings, of silver or gold, to his followers, and thereby bind them to his following. JRRT took this kenning, and from it came the idea of Sauron's many rings, some made by the Elves, some made by his own dark hand, but all bound up with magics that sought to force others to do the evil Maia's biding. The Nine Rings given to Men are especially significant here as these rings did indeed mark the eventual, total subordination of Men to Sauron's will. The kenning concept of a "lord of rings" also gave JRRT a handy, expressive title for his Middle-earth book.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 25, 2007 6:01:02 GMT -6
As I read through the first manuscripts and Christopher Tolkien's comment for the Return of the Shadow, I find I am getting confused!
At first JRRT was not sure how many rings there were and why the Dark Lord desired the One Ring that Bilbo possessed so. In the first manuscripts and their revisions, JRRT wrote that the Necromancer (later the Dark Lord, Sauron) made all the rings himself. I know this isn't so after having read The Silmarillion but I haven't come to JRRT's decision to have some of the rings made by the Elves.
This is where I have become confused! Which rings did the Elves make and how involved was Sauron in their making? I am sure he made the One Ring himself. Where is my copy of The Sil? If I remember correctly, the Elves made all the rings for Elves, Dwarves, and Men; but Sauron alone made his secretly. Why would the Elves make rings for Dwarves and Men?
I found my copy of The Sil and there is an entire chapter on this subject. I'm going to read it today and refresh my memory. I'll be back.
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 25, 2007 9:37:51 GMT -6
Such a study would be very helpful, Stormrider! I am not certain how many rings Sauron made by himself, how many he made with the Elven ringsmiths, and how many then were made solely by the Elves. I seem to remember that the house of Durin always held that their ring had been made ONLY by the Elves, I wonder if this implies that Sauron had a hand in making the other six Dwarvish rings?
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 26, 2007 21:07:08 GMT -6
It was after the destruction of Thangorodrim and Morgoth's overthrow and the start of the Third Age.
Sauron had to face Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, for his evil deeds. Sauron put on his fair face and actually repented at first (out of fear from seeing the fall of Morgoth and the wrath of the Lords of the West). Sauron was from the same order as Eönwë who could not pardon Sauron because of that connection. Sauron was sent to Manwë but he was ashamed and did not want to return in humiliation and receive a sentence of long servitude to show his good faith, so Sauron hid himself in Middle-earth and fell back into his evil ways.
Meanwhile the Noldorin Elves of Eregion (called Hollin by Men) became very good friends with their neighbors, the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm (Moria). Both of these peoples became very enriched from learning from each other and sharing their skills for crafting. The elf with the greatest skills among them was Celebrimbor. There was peace in Middle-earth for many years even though ME was desolate and savage.
Meanwhile, Sauron saw the desolation of Middle-earth and was angry at the Valar for forgetting Middle-earth and letting it go to waste. He also hated the Eldar and feared the Men of Númenor who came back to ME in their ships. So he concealed his dark and evil feelings and desires and put on his fair and wise guise again and went far and wide to persuade the Elves to his service. He called himself Annatar, the Lord of Gifts.
Sauron did not go to Lindon because Gil-galad and Elrond lived there and they did not trust him and his friendly appearance and attitude. So he twisted the reasons for their dislike of him by saying that they did not want "other lands to become as blissful as their own".
He told the Elves that did trust him that he wanted to beautify all of Middle-earth and that if they all worked together they could enrich ME. The Noldor from Eregion accepted Sauron the most readily because they wished to "increase their skills and subtlety of their works". They learned much from Sauron because his knowledge was great.
The Noldorin smiths of Ost-in-Edhil (the chief city of elvish Eregion)
So...when Sauron put on his One Ring, the Elves were aware of him IMMEDIATELY, and knew who he was and that they would be subject to him and everything they did. They took off their rings and did not wear them.
Sauron was filled with wrath and came at them in open war, "demanding that all the rings be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel."
The Elves fled from him and saved three of the rings and hid them. These three had been the last ones made and possessed the greatest powers. These three Sauron desired the most since they could "ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world".
Narya, Nenya, and Vilya were given to the Wise who concealed them and they were not used again openly while Sauron had the Ruling Ring. These three were forged by Celebrimbor alone," and the hand of Sauron never touched them; yet they also were subject to The One". --Why would they be subject to The One if Sauron never touched them? Even though Celebrimbor forged them by himself, could the methods he used be ones that he learned from Sauron? Would that be the link to being subject to The One?
Anyway, Sauron kept all the other Rings of Power that had been made by the Elves and dished them out to the other peoples of ME who wanted secret power beyond their own abilities--seven to the Dwarves and nine to Men (the most easily to fall into his will). All of these rings he perverted since he had a part in their making and they became cursed and betrayed all those that used them.
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 27, 2007 4:44:39 GMT -6
Hmmm, trying to make some sense of these differing accounts concerning the origins of the various rings. According to your reading of The Return of the Shadow, there was a time when "JRRT wrote that the Necromancer (later the Dark Lord Sauron) made all the rings himself." But, if I have got this right, by the time of The Silmarillion version, Sauron is directly responsible for creating only the One Ring. This alteration has some implications that intrigue me, especially if we ask the same question you have come up with, Stormrider: "Why would the Elves make rings for Dwarves and Men?" Why indeed!
It would make good sense to have left the creation of the rings up to Sauron, then he would have made the Seven, The Nine, and the Three all as objects of control to bring the highest Dwarves, Men, and Elves under his control. But, I guess, that would mean that ALL the rings, even the Three Elven Rings would have been corrupted from the beginning. Tolkien, however, seems to have wanted to keep his High Elves free of that taint, and so sought some way to keep Sauron divorced from the process of creation for these three "special" rings. He seems to have decided that this new plan could best be fulfilled by assigning most of the work on the various rings to the Elves -- they would make the Nine, the Seven, and the Three while Sauron would merely be a "technical adviser" giving the Elven ringsmiths the last bits of advanced knowledge they required to finish the task.
But this new scheme of ring making left some problems, as you have perceived, Stormrider, "why would the Elves make rings for Dwarves and Men?" It makes good sense that Sauron would have made such rings to ensnare Men and Dwarves, but what purpose would the Elves have in making rings for these two races? Certainly the Elves would not have handed out rings to men and Dwarves in order to control these people, that sort of domination was Sauron's game, not their's, so why should the Elves give rings to Dwarves and Men?
Was this just some altruistic urge on the part of the Elven ringsmiths? They were making their own rings as tools to halt the "decays of time," to slow down the "fading" of Middle-earth. Was this the primary function of the rings made for the Dwarves and Men as well? But, if I remember the Silmarillion version correctly here, the primary result of the Dwarven rings was the enhancement of wealth, not good health, or the prevention of time's decay. Likewise the primary function of the rings given to Men seems to be the increase in personal, political power of those who held them, and secondarily the Nine gave a longer "life" to Men, but not a better, happier sort of life.
Surely the Elves would not have made the Seven and the Nine with the kinds of results that they eventually had on their bearers? So, even if the Elves, at first made rings for the Dwarves and Men to share the hoped for "good" results of these powerful tools, only Sauron would have been interested in corrupting these rings, and only he would have had the knowledge and power to twist the Nine and Seven into instrument of control and domination. So maybe that is the compromise solution JRRT came up with, sometime after his original version in The Return of the Shadow? But, like all "compromises," it was not a perfect fit, otherwise the Three Rings would also have been equally corrupted by Sauron, wouldn't they? Why do the Seven and the Nine have so much more disatrous results on Dwarves and Men than the Three have on the Elves, if all were made by the solely by the Elves, and all were then later equally under the controlling influence of the One Ring?
At the end, even this compromise leaves unanswered, and maybe unanswearble, your latest question, Stormrider: " 'These three were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron never touched them; yet they also were subject to The One'. -- Why would they be subject to The One if Sauron never touched them?" (emphasis mine)
Ah, I have argued myself around in circles here, lol, and have no definitive answers left at all. It appears that this may be one more imperfectly thought out compromise by JRRT, something that cannot be neatly cleaned away?
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 27, 2007 6:39:53 GMT -6
After reading The Silmarillion chapter on the rings, I believe the Elves made many rings but they had not intended to hand them out to other peoples--that was Sauron's plan only. I think the Elves were intending to keep all the rings themselves for their own purposes.
As far as Narya, Nenya, and Vilya go: I think Sauron could control them because Celebrimbor used some of the knowledge he learned from Sauron (that was the link that allowed Sauron to do that), but these three rings were not corrupted as the other 16 had been once Sauron took control of them.
You are correct about the rings for the Dwarves and Men. The rings for the Dwarves made them wealthy and greedy. The seven hoards that the Dwarves had were founded on a ring (this is a quote from that chapter but I am leaving for work in a moment--I'll find it later and post it).
The rings of the men gave them power and might, they could become invisible when they wanted and also see this world and the world beyond. (another quote from the Sil chapter that I will post later)
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 28, 2007 6:01:14 GMT -6
Thanks, Stormrider.
The material from The Silmarillion still leaves me wondering what JRRT's ultimate design for the rings might have been. He was in the process of revising all the backstory legends when he died, and Christopher Tolkien had to do his best to produce a readable copy for the 1977 publication of this volume. There may be some hints in the later HOME volumes, I'll see what I can find there.
I like your idea: "I believe the Elves made many rings but they had not intended to hand them out to other peoples--that was Sauron's plan only." That scenario would streamline the whole ring situation and take care of the question about why the Elves would make rings deliberately for Men and Dwarves.
RE Stormrider's quote from Silmarillion: "Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last"
Just quibbling with myself here, but this quote, unfortunately, still leaves open the possibility that Sauron not only advised the Elves on ring making, but might also have helped them make some, touching them as they were made. It does not specifically say he did, but otherwise I am at a loss to explain the statement (can't find it just now, I'll look further) that Sauron had a hand in making six of the Dwarf rings, but NOT that of the house of Durin.
It would be most helpful here if we can find some sort of direct statement from JRRT to the effect that the many rings of power were made ONLY by the Elves (except Sauron's One Ring) and that originally the Elves had no intention of giving any of their rings to Men or Dwarves. I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that might support this thesis.
I think, as things stand right now, if we talke the 1977 version Silmarillion as our standard, your thesis that the Elves made ALL the rings of power (except the One), and had no original intention of giving any of them to Men or Dwarves, seems the best interpretation.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 29, 2007 6:09:38 GMT -6
Here are the quotes about the Dwarves and Men and their Rings of Power.
Aulë did his job in making the Fathers of the Dwarves and their descendants strong--strong enough to make it difficult for Sauron to control them the way he would have liked! At least it does not seem that they became wraiths since they could not be turned to shadows.
The Dwarf-kings may have shown greed of gold and wrath but I wonder how much of this attitude became inherited. Many times while I read The Hobbit, I did not much like Thorin Oakenshield because of his desire for his family hoard and his unbending belief that it belonged to him and his kin alone. Even when he should have willingly agreed to pay off the people of Lake Town for their hospitality while they stayed there and helped to restore the town after it was destroyed by Smaug (since the Dwarves woke him up and angered him).
I wonder exactly how many years, ages, it took to fall under Sauron's thraldom. It sounds like it may have taken thousands of years! Too bad there weren't back stories written on each Ringwraith. They could have been really interesting. I know there have been searchs online for more information on the men, who they were, what their lives were like but most of what has been found comes from other Tolkien fans' role play games and stories. I'm surprised there weren't some little scraps of papers scattered throughout all the manuscripts with something more!
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 30, 2007 8:45:14 GMT -6
From The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," 1977, hard back version, p. 288 I still see a lot of ambiguity regarding whether or not JRRT meant us to see ALL the rings of power, save the One, as having been made solely by the Elves, using technical data from Sauron, but never letting him have an actual hand in making any of them. It does sound as though the Seven, and the Nine were at first kept by the Elves, and only later captured by Sauron who held them for a while (thereby corrupting them?) and then he subsequently doled them out to Men and Dwarves:
"But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaing Rings of Power [the Three being excepted]; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind." (Sil. p. 288)
So far, so good -- but then a bit later Tolkien says something that makes me wonder if he is still thinking sometimes that Sauron did have a "hands-on" working relationship with the Elven ring-smiths, and did actually help make the Nine and the Seven:
"And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed..." (Sil. p. 288)
Well, how do interpret this bold-face portion of the quote? Was his part simply "technical advice?" If so, that same "technical advice" influenced the Elves' making of the Three, so why weren't they as easily "perverted" as the other rings?
We do have the statement that the Three remained uncorrupted because Sauron never touched them at all, but the way I read my last quote above, it looks like JRRT is saying that the Nine and the Seven were "more easily" perverted because Sauron helped forge them, while the Three would be harder to pervert since he had no hand in their forging, AND he never captured them...
Here, if I can ever find it, that quote about Sauron helping to make (hands on helping!) six of the seven Dwarf rings would certainly give my tentative hypothesis a boost, sigh, still looking for it, maybe in UT?
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 30, 2007 9:37:44 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's latest postings of June 29
1. "The Dwarf-kings may have shown greed of gold and wrath but I wonder how much of this attitude became inherited."
Interesting, yeah how much of the Dwarven temperment was "genetic," and did the Seven Rings exacerbate that tendency towards greed and vengeance-seeking? It seems to me, from the "pre-rings" period of the Elder Days, that many Dwarves were already a pretty bad lot in terms of monetary greed, and getting involved in "blood-feud" situations. But would having a ring "in the family" affect each new generation with a re-inforcment of these tendencies? Was Thorin extra-specially greedy, and proud because his imediate fore-fathers had been influenced by their use of their ring?
2. "I wonder exactly how many years, ages, it took to fall under Sauron's thraldom. It sounds like it may have taken thousands of years! Too bad there weren't back stories written on each Ringwraith. They could have been really interesting."
As I recall from earlier posts on the Nazgul, the Nine and the Seven rings were captured by Sauron in 1697 SA (RotK, appendix B). Around 2251 "... the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear." (RotK, appendix B). I guess that gives us a maximum length of time at 554 years for the process of Nazgul-formation to be completed.
Yeah, I also wish JRRT had had enough time to write up at some of the detail on the Nine Nazgul!
3. "I'm surprised there weren't some little scraps of papers scattered throughout all the manuscripts with something more!"
Hmmm, well, I'll keep my fingers crossed, maybe they'll dig out an old shoe box from some attic room that will have all sorts of "bits and scraps" in it!
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 30, 2007 10:03:45 GMT -6
Eureka!!! or in Elvish, "Ye! utuvienyes!" (RotK, "The Steward and the King," p. 250 hb version)
When in doubt, always consult the appendices of LotR!
I just re-found the precise quote I have been needing, concerning whether Sauron actually had a "hands-on" assisting role in the making of any of the Elven rings of power:
"Of this Ring [the House of Durin's ring] something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dum, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven." (RotK, Appendix A, p. 357, Houghton Mifflin, 1965, hb version)
From this quote, I think it is in conflict with some of the later version material of The Silmarillion of 1977:
1. Sauron here seems to have had a "hands-on" role in forging all Seven of the Dwarvish rings.
2. Since the Elves gave the first Dwarvish ring directly to Durin III, does it appears likely that from the beginning the Elves had made some rings for the Dwarves, and probably special made the Nine for Men? Does this also fit in with the One Ring inscriptions: "Nine [rings] for Mortal Men doomed to die," and "Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone" ...
So, does this quote alter the way we should interpret our understanding of the rings' source? Maybe there's still some way of reconcilling The Silmarillion version with the Return of the Shadow and LotR versions?
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 30, 2007 18:37:30 GMT -6
From all the quotes above, it certainly seems that the loose ends were never reconciled. Whether he actually had "hands on" involvement or gave the Elves advice and techniques, I guess we are to assume Sauron had a part in the making of the rings of power except for the three that were made last (Narya, Nenya, and Vilya).
Andorinha's quote from ROTK Appendix A:
Perhaps Sauron had tainted Dain III's ring while it was being forged but he did not get a chance to corrupt it further after the Elves discovered him when he put his Ring on and they fled with their three. Although the quote above conflicts with the Silmarillion quote stating he had all the Dwarves' and Men's rings of power and currupted them all. Just more loose ends.
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