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Post by Andorinha on Jul 3, 2007 7:57:03 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "Whether he actually had "hands on" involvement or gave the Elves advice and techniques, I guess we are to assume Sauron had a part in the making of the rings of power except for the three that were made last (Narya, Nenya, and Vilya)."
Maybe so... I'm not sure what to do with this entire matter of the rings. It's sort of like the Tolkien time and Loth-Lorien discussion from a year ago: we have three or four conflicting versions that JRRT never had the time to reconcile. Nontheless, I think this situation of ambiguity is very instructive here. It shows us how JRRT's mind worked -- by trial and error, and revision after revision until he got it right. Unfortunately, I'll bet he would have needed another 20 years of effective writing time to whip this entire universe into its final, harmonized order!
RE: Stormrider's "Perhaps Sauron had tainted Dain III's ring while it was being forged but he did not get a chance to corrupt it further after the Elves discovered him when he put his Ring on and they fled with their three. Although the quote above conflicts with the Silmarillion quote stating he had all the Dwarves' and Men's rings of power and currupted them all. Just more loose ends."
This makes good sense to me! Especially the ending bit: "Just more loose ends."
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 13, 2007 6:32:18 GMT -6
Three Rings of the Elves - Part 1
I found something while looking ahead in the first manuscripts books that Christopher Tolkien published. This is from the "Galadriel" chapter of The Treason of Isengard:
At the Mirror of Galadriel, some rough notes:
Then Christopher goes on to say:
Then Christopher compares the original version of "The Council of Elrond" where Elrond says:
Then in the fifth version, Elrond's words become:
Then Christopher himself says:
There were some other notes in a draft that goes into more detail of Galadriel's refusal of the One Ring and Christopher says:
There is more of interest but work calls and I will finish this tonight!
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 13, 2007 16:34:28 GMT -6
Three Rings of the Elves - Part 2
More of JRRT’s passages regarding the Three Rings of the Elves in the Galadriel chapter and alterations and I believe they were said by Elrond in the Council:
This was at once replaced by:
Then follows, written out anew, the opening sentence of the first version; and then:
Then Christopher says JRRT broke off here and began again: and Christopher says then: “and at this point, I think, he definitively abandoned the conception.
Christopher states after the above quotes:
If I remember correctly from my scanning thru Lost Tales, Gnomes are what JRRT called the high elves at first.
Interesting! The Rings would have been very special if they had been made in Valinor by Fëanor. Morgoth should have had much more knowledge than Sauron as well. JRRT seems to have been developing his Silmarillion material as he wrote LOTR.
Just think how much more aggravated Fëanor would have been if Morgoth had stole his Three Rings and his Three Silmarils! He would really have been angry at the Valar.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 18, 2007 11:48:29 GMT -6
Ah, more GOOD material here, Stormider -- thanks!
I do have a copy of The Treason of Isengard on hand!
On page 215, "Lothlorien," C. Tolkien mentions that he thinks this chapter and the next ('Galadriel") date from August of 1940, so this material is still from fairly early on in the creation of LotR, and it may have been significantly alterred as he went through later versions and re-interpretations. Nonetheless, I think you and CT are correct in seeing this version as marking a definite break with the earliest versions where Sauron had a hand in fashioning ALL of the rings. Galadriel will only use an "unsullied" Ring: "It is not permitted to use anything that Sauron has made." (TI, p. 254, emphasis mine)
"Not permitted," hmmm, what does this mean? Not permitted by whom, or what? Is there some absolute force that makes it impossible for Galadriel to use the One Ring, even if she had a mind to take it? Or does this simply mean that she should not use the thing lest great and terrible consequences befall her? I note that in LotR, the situation is made more clear, Galadriel can take the One Ring, if she wishes, but she recognizes the consequences of such a move and by the force of her innate goodness, she rejects that Evil choice from free-will only.
At any rate, the sum message from all the quotes you provide, Stormrider, certainly convinces me that from as early as 1940, JRRT had finally decided that the Three Elven Rings were definitely made only by the Elves, although they still could be controlled by the One Ring after Sauron made it. I suppose this still leaves us with the idea that the Seven (with the possible exception of the Ring of the House of Durin) and the Nine were all made with Sauron's "hands-on" assistance?
LOL, Feanor as creator of the Rings of Power! I am glad JRRT finally decided to scratch that idea, I think it would have given Feanor all the creative glory and undercut the creativity of the rest of the Elves. A sort of, "nothing can be created unless Feanor does it" motiff...
But you are certainly right, if Morgoth added Ring-theft to Silmarillion theft, yeah, I can see hothead Feanor really exploding!
But, of course, if Feanor made the Rings, and Melgoth stole them, then would the Three not have been corrupted as were the Seven and the Nine? So JRRT would have to come up with a complex explanation for keeping the Three "unsullied" despite their being possessed by Morgoth, and then another explanation detailing how the Elves got them back!
Yes, the final passage you quote in reply 32 really says a lot!
"These extraordinary vestiges show him revolving the mode by which he should withdraw the Three Rings of the Elves from inherent evil and derivation from the Enemy. For a fleeting moment their making was set in the remote ages of Valinor and attributed to Fëanor, though inspired by Morgoth: Most fair of all was Morgoth to the Elves, and he aided them in many works, if they would let him…the Gnomes took delight in the many things of hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them. And Morgoth stole the Rings of Fëanor, as he stole the Silmarils." (TI - pp. 255-56)
Yeah, here "Gnomes" refers specifically to the "Deep Elves," the Noldor, doesn't it? __________ A few things in passing -- Galadriel to Frodo: "There is also a danger that pursues you, which I do not see clearly or understand." ( The Treason of Isengard p. 249 ).
I wish this item had made the final cut and was in the published LotR version -- I'll bet my next batch of chocolate-chip cookies that Galadriel is dimly sensing the menace of Gollum!
__________
Regarding our older discussion concerning "Time in Lorien," I note here that Galadriel is still working, in this 1940 version, with the concept that time outside Lorien moves at a different pace: "For now unless you will dwell here in exile while outside in the world many years run by, I see not what you can do save go forward." (TI, p. 249)
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 18, 2007 16:48:59 GMT -6
What bothers me is this comment from my quote above: "Most fair of all was Morgoth to the Elves, and he aided them in many works, if they would let him…the Gnomes took delight in the many things of hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them."
Didn't the Elves realize that it was Morgoth who corrupted the Elves and made them Orcs? Did they not realize he was named Melkor when he corrupted the Elves and became Morgoth after the Silmarills were stolen?
When Melkor first ensnared the Elves, I know there was some confusion due to the first visit of Oromë. Perhaps they mistook Oromë as the Elf kidnapper?
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Post by Vanye on Jul 21, 2007 16:01:26 GMT -6
I have wondered why the others did not seem to recognize how destructive & unrepentent Morgoth was, but sometimes I think it is like having a bratty little sibling - they are your sibling- bratty or not & to deny them is just unthinkable! Even if you do succumb,now & then to the urge to take a poke at the little snot whenever no parents are around! At least that 's what I've 'heard'! Vanye
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 22, 2007 7:23:55 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's: "What bothers me is this comment from my quote above: 'Most fair of all was Morgoth to the Elves, and he aided them in many works, if they would let him…the Gnomes took delight in the many things of hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them.'"
Yeah, I think JRRT abandoned this line of thought because it just does not make much sense. While some Elves did listen to Melkor's lies in the first days after waking, and did flee Orome, attributing to the good Valar all the evil deeds actually done by Melkor, others found out soon enough that Melkor alone was the root of all the Elven miseries. Why would they "forget and forgive?"
A selfish Feanor, I think, would hardly wish to collaborate with Melkor any way, and, in fact, the Silmarillion account has the Noldor craftsman spurn Melkor's advances. While some, including the Valar, might give the "reformed" Melkor the benefit of the doubt, others, Mandos, Tulkas especially, never fall for the repentent-act, and it seems many of the Elves continued to avoid Melkor.
All in all, I better like putting this act later in Sauron's domain, and the Second Age, where Sauron appears as Atanatar, Lord of Gifts, and no one seems to quite penetrate his disguise. I think only Gil-galad and Galadriel spurn Atanatar, not because they know he is actually Sauron, but simply because their intuitions tell them that this Lord of Gifts is not a force for good.
____________
Hullo, Vanye! Yeah, that same point has always bothered me as well: "I have wondered why the others did not seem to recognize how destructive & unrepentent Morgoth..."
I like the sibling explanation here, Melkor is, afterall, one of the "family," in fact the sort of (bad penny) "eldest brother." I guess that alone sort of entitles him to some acceptance. And, just in case the guy ever had a real conversion, his power and skills would have been immensely useful in putting the universe back on track. Maybe there was a sort of calculated risk here, one that most of the Valar were willing to take in the hope that Melkor could be salvaged?
LOL! I think Tulkas, who clenched his fists each time Melkor went by, would rather follow your aside and just swipe the "little snot" a hard one on the nose!
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 22, 2007 8:25:16 GMT -6
Yes, Vanye! A bit of the "prodigal son" story where the father celebrates the return of the son who drifted away. In this case, Melkor did everything against Eru's thoughts and went his own way. Eru (and the other Valar or siblings) would have celebrated Melkor's return to good (or following in Eru's thoughts) if only he really had!
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 18, 2008 20:48:12 GMT -6
Re-reading Herodotus, found something that JRRT would have been familiar with when he sweated his way through his Classics in school. Regarding rings of invisibility, in the myth of Candaules and Gyges there is a version of this story (by Plato) that explained how Gyges came to replace Candaules as king of Lydia:
"Gyges was a herdsman who found a ring of invisibility. So equipped, he killed the king and secured the queen." Cambridge Companion to Herodotus, p. 50.
Hmmm, I was thinking the "ring of invisibility" was a Nordic saga invention, and here the Greeks have it in 400 BC.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 22, 2008 6:40:50 GMT -6
That's interesting! I wonder if there was even earlier writings involving invisibility. It wouldn't necessarily have to be from a ring, just invisibility itself. While looking for the history of invisibility on the net I just came across this interesting link about an invisibility cloak that will become reality: appbbs.com/node/13765
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 22, 2008 11:33:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the url, Stormrider!
Yes. Negative Refraction, that would explain how the clothes of Bilbo vanish along with his body, so, Bilbo with Ring on, you could drop a hat on his invisible head and once it entered the "cone of invisibility" that surrounds him, it too would vanish! Whereas the Nazgul, have their bodies only invisible from the frequent use of their rings. Now, without the 9 rings (Sauron took them back) you drop a hat on the invisible head of a naked Nazgul, and the hat remains visible. Hmm, wonder if giving the 9 rings back to the Nazgul would allow them to wear clothes, as Bilbo/ Frodo did, and the clothes would fall into the cone of Negative Refraction and be rendered invisible?
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 22, 2008 18:50:53 GMT -6
Thanks for the url, Stormrider!
Yes. Negative Refraction, that would explain how the clothes of Bilbo vanish along with his body, so, Bilbo with Ring on, you could drop a hat on his invisible head and once it entered the "cone of invisibility" that surrounds him, it too would vanish! Whereas the Nazgul, have their bodies only invisible from the frequent use of their rings. Now, without the 9 rings (Sauron took them back) you drop a hat on the invisible head of a naked Nazgul, and the hat remains visible. Hmm, wonder if giving the 9 rings back to the Nazgul would allow them to wear clothes, as Bilbo/ Frodo did, and the clothes would fall into the cone of Negative Refraction and be rendered invisible? I bet you are correct, Andorinha. That's how you could see the Black Riders--they weren't wearing their rings! Sauron wouldn't dare give them their rings if they would become invisible to him without wearing his own Ring! Can you imagine the Nazgûl running invisibly amuk and Sauron couldn't find them? On Weathertop, in A Knife in the Dark chapter, in the last few paragraphs, Frodo put the Ring on as the Black Riders advanced on him, it states: So when Frodo put on the One Ring, he could see them. Don't you think Sauron would have taken the Nazgûls' rings from them while he was still in possession of his own Ring? Doing so must have put them under his control even more, knowing he had their rings--kind of like Gollum trying to get his ring back, doing what Frodo said so he could be close enough to The Ring. The Nazgûl wanted to be close to their own rings, too. I wonder how it would have been if the Nazgûl were still in possession of their rings when Isildur cut The One Ring from Sauron's hand! Would they have had the upper hand then? Sauron subservient to The Nine? interesting!
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