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Nazgûl
May 3, 2007 6:10:05 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on May 3, 2007 6:10:05 GMT -6
I did not realize Glorfindel made that statement! That would be enough to make the Witchking wonder if he did get word of it. Good point, Andorinha!
Perhaps it was enough to place the doubt in him, gave Merry a chance to sink his small blade in the back of his knee, and Éowyn the chance to stick him in the face while Merry distracted him. That smidgen of doubt may have been one of the "keys" to a counterspell as Desi mentioned!
We all know one of the themes in this tale is that the smallest or insignificant people can do great things. It must have inspired many people who were small to do greater things in their lives.
I would think that Sauron would have had the power to destroy his Nazûl if he wanted as well. I wonder what he would have had to have done to do that.
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Nazgûl
May 6, 2007 10:21:16 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on May 6, 2007 10:21:16 GMT -6
RE Desi's -- "As far as his words having true meaning...The Witch-king was under the spell of one of the nine rings and most spells have counter spells, so it could possibly be that a man couldn't kill him and only a woman could."
Yeah, I think JRRT was deliberately setting this up as a situation of magic vrs magic, with the Elf Glorfindel being able to read the riddle correctly, "no man" will slay the Witch King, but just who, or what will? Merry and Éowyn fit the riddle well, neither of them can be considered "men" in a strict fashion. But I don't think even Glorfindel knew how the prophecy would be fulfilled.
Maybe as Stormrider suggests, the mere act of hesitation on the Witch King's part was the first part of the "counterspell." His self-doubt made him vulnerable, allowing Merry to set off the action with his special sword. Éowyn's frontal assault is then the finishing element of the counter spell?
_____________ RE Stormrider's : "I would think that Sauron would have had the power to destroy his Nazgûl if he wanted as well. I wonder what he would have had to have done to do that."
Hmm, I never even thought of this, could Sauron have destroyed a Nazgul, had he ever wanted to? I got the feeling from some of the HoMe works, and maybe the letters, that the Nazgul were so thoroughly enslaved that they could never work against Sauron. So I quess the need/ desire to destroy one of them should never arise? But what if there were some reason for getting rid of a Nazgul, would Sauron only have to order the wraith to kill himself, and presto, the deed would be done? Of course, since Sauron is at best a third rank sub-creator, he might be able to kill a Nazgul but could he ever fully destroy one, un-make it as if it had never existed? Maybe only Eru could absolutely destroy any creature, especially one that once had a soul?
Something that can be read as ominous may be found in the last statement describing the Witch King's end: "... and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world." (RotK, hb ver, p. 117, emphasis mine)
Does this mean that the Witch King's spirit had been "de-housed," de-fleshed" but just like the diminished Sauron after the destruction of the Ring, he was still alive, and he might return at some vastly later time and age?
Beats me!
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Nazgûl
May 6, 2007 17:51:34 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on May 6, 2007 17:51:34 GMT -6
Anorinha stated:
Andorinha, your bold emphasis and suggestion is creeping me out! lol!
However, all of Sauron's creatures were either destroyed or scattered when Mordor collapsed. Those that scattered were set free of his yoke. From some of the comments that the Orc chiefs made about the "Bosses" it seems as though they would not be willing to help Sauron or the Witchking to obtain any new form in another Age. They would probably need some very forceful prompting to do that--and who would be the person (or creature) that would persuade an old slave to help prepare another body for Sauron or the Witchking? Sauron would still have to have a very loyal servant who had influence, craftiness, money, and skill to have the ability to help them come back. Who would have still been loyal to Sauron after the Ring's destruction?
*** And this is how the other 8 Nazgûl expired when the One Ring was destroyed on Mount Doom: ROTK, Book 6, Chapter 3, Mount Doom, very end of the chapter, p. 926 in my book.
Nope...no shrill wailing cry for these guys! I have always loved this description of their end..."crackled, withered, and went out"--sort of like the last burning ember in a fire.
With the demise of The One Ring and Orodruin where it was forged along with the entire land of Mordor, I never thought that Sauron or his Nine would have ever returned anywhere in any kind of form ever again. I still think that Tolkien meant it to be the final ending of Sauron and his Nine and that they never would come back. But I guess we can always speculate.
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Nazgûl
May 6, 2007 19:38:07 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on May 6, 2007 19:38:07 GMT -6
Interesting, Stormrider.
Hmmm, off the top of my head here, and I'll see if I can track the quotes a bit later, but I think both Morgoth and Sauron are available for future regenerations. I sort of recall Gandalf telling Frodo, or maybe the Council at Rivendell, that if the One Ring were destroyed it could not destroy Sauron, but would leave him unable to reform a physical presence, unable to assume a body, and that he would be vastly diminished, becoming a mere spirit of malice howling in the dark.
In the HoMe volumes, and the Letters (again, I'll look for citations!) I think even Morgoth is forecast to return at the final end of the present creation when Middle-earth and Arda/ Ea will come to their final predestined finish. Then a new creation where the song is sung correctly will come into being.
As regards the Nazgul, I have absolutely no idea if they likewise can still return, pure speculation on my part. But, I assume since they were originally the Children of Illuvatar, and they were Men, they would have their spirits taken up and go directly to Eru? What healing, or punishment, or eternal death would they then receive? JRRT says no one but Eru knows what becomes of human (mankind) souls after death...
If Fanuidhol is still around, perhaps you, Fan, have some sources here? Would be much appreciated! I think we discussed the end of Sauron once before, but I may be wrong.
At any rate, Stormrider, I'll be glad to assume that with the end of the One Ring, the Nine Rings perished too, so that even if the Nazgul could come back, they'd have no more power than a puff of foul air!
And, as you say: "Who would have still been loyal to Sauron after the Ring's destruction?"
Ah, just found one useful quote from the Letters:
When Sauron appeared in physical form "this shape was real, ... a physical actuality ... it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end." (Letter # 200, to Major R. Bowen, June 25, 1957, pp 259 - 260)
JRRT then goes on to say that after the Ring's destruction Sauron's power fell so low that it was "impossible" for him to ever rebuild a physical form. Now, if I can find the quote about Sauron being reduced to a mere spirit of malice...
Aha! Before I lose it again, here's another long misplaced quote that I'll add, though it has little to do with this question, but is one we discussed elsewhere/ elsewhen regarding the "disconnect" between The Necromancer of The Hobbit and the Sauron figure of LotR:
"... I had no conscious notion of what the Necromancer stood for (except ever-recurring evil) in The Hobbit, nor of his connexion with the Ring." (Letter # 163, to W.H. Auden, 7 June, 1955, p. 216)
Stormrider, I'll check the Letters for a Nazgul connection, but I think you are correct, once the Ring is gone, Sauron "may" return, but the Nazgul are gone for ever!
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Nazgûl
May 7, 2007 5:51:56 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on May 7, 2007 5:51:56 GMT -6
Andorinha: Thank you for the quotes. I remember those passages now regarding Sauron's soul being bodiless and having to rebuild his strength.
Regarding the Nazgûl: Did we find references or decide they were evil Men who were presented with their rings--or were they guided by greed and power (which doesn't necessarily make them evil just focused on their own desires). If they were evil, then we may not wish to know what Eru would do to them after their death!
If they were guided by their desire for power and wealth, took the rings and became enslaved to Sauron, would Eru forgive them for being bound to evil? Maybe once they expired they were forgiven and found final peace.
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Nazgûl
May 7, 2007 8:18:35 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on May 7, 2007 8:18:35 GMT -6
Excellent questions regarding the "motivations" of those who accepted the Nine Rings, Stormrider. I'll see what I can remember from some long ago discussions...
But meanwhile -- "Dum-dum, Dum-dum, Dum-dum" -- it may not yet be safe to go back into the water. As I leafed through my scarred, tattered, drop-paged old copy of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien I came across this ominous footnote:
"*The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence." (Letter # 246, to Mrs Eileen Elgar, Sept 1963, p. 331)
This footnote refers to a section of the letter's main body wherein Tolkien was trying to explain why Frodo was not able to directly command the Nazgul when he put on the Ring. Had Frodo been confronted by all the Nazgul in Orodruin when he claimed the Ring, how would they have reacted to him?
"The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight* might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's [Frodo's] weakness was that he did not know to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperment and training averse to violence. Their [8 Nazgul] weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility."
The asterisked portion of the quote, explaining why there were now only 8 Nazgul to confront Frodo at The Cracks of Doom, seems to indicate that JRRT did not consider the Witch King fully destroyed yet, merely reduced greatly in power to the point of being impotent, unable to take decisive action in the story any longer. I am thinking here that had Sauron regained the One, the Witch King, whose existence was tied to it through one of the Nine rings, could have been restored. Perhaps, the only way to really "kill" a Nazgul was to have the One Ring destroyed, then the Nine Rings would fail and all the Nazgul including the diminished Witch King would have truly died?
So, I guess that between the time the Witch King was "undone" by Merry and Eowyn, and the time of the One Ring's destruction, The Witch King was still around, just reduced to a minor, impotent spirit of malice. Maybe this is why his voice trailed off in a long shriek, and the other 8 just crackled in flames, withered, and went out, they were dead instantaneously at the moment the Ring melted, no screams left at all...
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Nazgûl
May 8, 2007 9:01:12 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on May 8, 2007 9:01:12 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider's -- "Did we find references or decide they were evil Men who were presented with their rings--or were they guided by greed and power (which doesn't necessarily make them evil just focused on their own desires). If they were evil, then we may not wish to know what Eru would do to them after their death!"
This is something that has puzzelled me greatly for a very long time and it has deep philosophical/ religious ramifications that probably take it far into the realm of speculation on my part. At root here, as I see it, is the question of mercy and grace in Tolkien's sub-created Middle-earth mythologies. Does Eru work according to a plan of eventual redemption for all of his creatures, or are some of them doomed to final/ complete destruction-damnation? We know from hints in the Silmarillion and the HoMe works (I'll try to nail down some quotes a bit later) that the universe of Ea/ Arda/ Middle-earth was flawed in its creation by too much individuality and error in lack of understanding their proper roles by some of the Ainur, Melkor especially. This introduced disharmony into the universe and the whole history of the struggle of "Good" vrs "Evil" that gives us the tales JRRT wrote. But after this universe has played out its entire theme, we are told that it will all end, and then a new universe will be created in which the mistakes of the first one will be corrected. Does this mean that a redeemed Melkor will finally have truly realized the errors of his ways, that Sauron will repent his disharmonious deeds and all the Balrogs, Orcs (whether human/ Elf derived) will now join in a proper second Great Music and sing harmoniously the new universe into its perfect creation? Or does this mean that a vengeful Eru will have tested the spirits of all his creatures in the first universe, and will by this process have decided who the bad apples are, concentrated them in some hell, and rid them from existence so that only the "goodie" harmonious spirits will be involved in the creation of the second universe?
If there is a sort of universal redemption principle in JRRT's mythology, I can see a happy redemption for all spirits, and their cooperation in the creation of the new, perfect realm. Even the Nazgul -- whether or not they were corrupted into being Evil, or deliberately, willingly, chose to be Evil -- would then be redeemable, and take part in the new creation after they had cleansed themselves of their egotism, pride, and domineering selfishness.
But, if Tolkien had an absolutistic punishment in mind, then I guess the Nazgul would simply be left out of the new creation, just 9 more of the vast host of unredeemables rotting forever in some version of a Dante's Inferno.
Here, maybe a better understanding of the RC faith as Tolkien saw it, might give us some hints as to how far he would allow redeemability to go. Does the RC faith stick closely to the idea of the redeemability of all souls, or does it have a final, terrible, damning solution for those who err beyond a given limit?
The only quote I can remember about the Nazguls' motivations for taking up their rings, says something about their desires to have great power. But did they know before hand where this path would lead? Did they, mistakenly think, as Sam does on the border of Mordor, that with the power of a ring they could do great good? Maybe some, or even all of the Nazgul originally thought that they could control the rings, could resist any real evil in them and just use their powers for good -- only to find that, like drug addicts, they could not control the rings, and the rings eventually dominated them, and alterred their minds and behaviours toward complete Evil? If the people who became Nazgul did so out of this kind of mistake, I would like to feel that they were eventually "cured" and redeemed. Even Galadriel had hungered for power herself, power to hold back the great fading of Middle-earth, power she got from her own ring, Nenya. So, hunger after power need not, even in Tolkien's world, become a final, damning "sin," I think. But did Tolkien see it this way?
I suppose, in the end, it all depends on how "forgiving" a person JRRT was, did he personally believe in a punishment sort of world, one that featured eternal damnation for those deemed to have seriously transgressed the established order? Or did he feel that the grace of a final redemption was possible for all?
No Soul "left behind?"
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Nazgûl
May 8, 2007 20:03:35 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on May 8, 2007 20:03:35 GMT -6
Earlier in this thread Andorinha stated:
And Khamûl, the only Ringwraith that was named (info from Unfinished Tales), was an Easterling King.
I can't say for Khamûl, but the Numenorean Ringwraiths may have accepted their rings because they were disenchanted with their life span and jealous of the Elves longevity. Sauron must have seduced them with the claim they would have long, everlasting lives if they took the rings. Many of the Numenorean kings were "greedy of wealth", "proud and wilful", and turned from the Valar and the Eldar and became the enemies of the Faithful. I can see how three of these Numenoreans would fall in with Sauron and accept a ring. It must have sounded like a "fountain of youth" type deal to them.
If this is so, they were "sinning" against what Eru and the Ainur had set up for the special Eros Line of Men. Would this have been a forgiveable sin? I don't think once a man wore his ring, he was capable of repenting after he discovered what accepting the ring entailed--he was totally enslaved and obedient to Sauron.
And perhaps they did think they would be able to do good things with their rings, as you mentioned. If they were seduced with lies to lure them to take the rings, then could they be held accountable for being duped. But if they saw the whole truth up front, then they were aware of what they would be and is that forgiveable?
But after their popping and crackling and going out and mournful disembodied wail, would they have been free enough to repent--knowing after the fact what they had become and what they did?
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Nazgûl
May 8, 2007 20:18:33 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on May 8, 2007 20:18:33 GMT -6
I forgot to mention:
If Arda/Middle Earth/The West was a test world for Eru, and the next world would be built differently, I don't believe that Melkor would have been created with the same composition he was in the first because Eru would have learned from his mistake.
If the song of creation went the way Eru had planned it, there would be no need for the second Melkor to snatch the First Children and turn them into Orcs. The next world would have been completely different and there would have been no evil. Therefore no need to create the rings of power.
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Nazgûl
May 10, 2007 7:12:03 GMT -6
Post by Desi Baggins on May 10, 2007 7:12:03 GMT -6
I am thinking that after the nazgul died their spirits were treated as man spirtis would have been. They were not good men, but evil ones so I am thinking their after life was not going to be pleasant. However I guess each one would be delt with as an individual. So depending on how and why that man took one of the rings would depend on how his spirit was treated.
I am sure each one was drawn to the ring for different reasons cuz not one person is alike. For example in Star Wars Anikin is drawn to the darkside with good intensions (so sad to see little Ani turn evil). So when Darth Vader is killed his body is burned like a Jedi cuz at the end he was turned back to the good side. Sorry for the Star Wars reference, but I think it shows how maybe not all the nagulz were evil men, maybe some had good intensions and others were greedy with evil in mind.
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Nazgûl
May 10, 2007 14:27:14 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on May 10, 2007 14:27:14 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider -- "I can see how three of these Numenoreans would fall in with Sauron and accept a ring. It must have sounded like a "fountain of youth" type deal to them. If this is so, they were "sinning" against what Eru and the Ainur had set up for the special Elros Line of Men. Would this have been a forgiveable sin?"
Stormrider, I think that's a good way to look at this issue, the Numenorean who became Nazgul (probably) should have known better. They were from "advantaged" homes, in a sense, and they had a privilleged status compared to the rest of humanity. Their life spans could have been up to 3 times that of "normal" men, but still they wished for the life span of the Eldar and let death, "the gift" to men, become instead their curse. Whether or not this transgression would be enough to damn them to an eternity of torment, I do not know, and think it still depends on how vindictive Tolkien was himself, as JRRT gets to set the limits of "forgiveness" in his books for Eru. In a universe where the creator deity is all good, all forgiving, I can see even this "crime" being forgiven.
Again, Galadriel is forgiven by the Valar and allowed to return to Aman, when her attempts to hold back the fading are really quite the same as the Nazgul seeking longer lives. To go against the natural order and use Nenya to slow down the depredations of time in Lorien is to give a false longevity to all things living there, isn't it? Galadriel tries to extend her life, her people's lives in a suitable environment for their continued Middle-earth pleasure. But, of course, Galadriel never became so addicted to power that she tried to dominate the entire world by force, something the Nazgul and Sauron were trying to accomplish. Still, even that might have happened to her had she taken the One Ring to insure the continuation of her own power.
I think the men who became Nazgul might simply be trying to do the same thing for themselves, stop the depredations of time. What the Nazgul could not know, or what Sauron would not tell them, I am sure, is that their extended lives would bring them total corruption, enslavement, and a degradation far worse than death. To be a Nazgul must have been a punishment in itself, I should think.
RE: Stormrider -- "But if they saw the whole truth up front, then they were aware of what they would be and is that forgiveable?"
Yeah, good point! If the Men who became Nazgul were fully aware of what the status of Ringwraith might entail, and they still chose that kind of power deliberately, it might well influence any deity to judge them more harshly. Still, a god of infinite mercy might be able to forgive and correct even wilfull disobedience? I assume that if a Morgoth could be redeemed, then even a Nazgul should be capable of salvage?
I am not sure why JRRT chose to allow the first creation to be flawed, chose Melkor to have the kind of characteristics of ambition and egotism that he does display. I suppose JRRT thought it would be a boring tale if Eru had got it right the first time. There would be no dynamic contrast between good and evil if all had worked out harmoniously the first time. Since JRRT was trying to depict the early history of what would become our own world, he had to account for the existence of suffering, of injustice, of "Evil" that all do exist at present. So, I guess he had to have some sort of reason and mechanism to explain why things do not always go well in this reality, and the concept of pride, of selfish egotism causing a series of "falls" away from harmony seemed the best way he could come up with for showing how our current status of an imperfect universe got started.
Yep, in a harmonious universe, there would have been no reason to make any of the rings of power, no reason for the Silmarils, no history of wars, etc etc -- maybe that would have made a very boring book? LOL!
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Nazgûl
May 10, 2007 15:10:45 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on May 10, 2007 15:10:45 GMT -6
Hi, Desi!
Yep, I think each of the Nazgul would have to get a separate hearing, as each would have had a different personality, different motivations, and a different understanding of their situation.
Your analogy with Star Wars works for me too. Someone with good intentions can gradually fall into evil, and then, what I'd like to see, is the possibility of genuine repentance and redemption for all as Ani/ Darth Vadar got. But, I suppose that depends on people's notions of what a god should be like -- some people tend to think in absolute terms, one mistake and your burn for ever and ever, others have a more lenient view?
LOL -- now which way did JRRT see it!?
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Nazgûl
Jul 8, 2007 8:13:43 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 8, 2007 8:13:43 GMT -6
Sitting here in the early sunbeams of a new day, my mind just wandering freely through the clouds -- I hit upon the following pure speculation: since Sauron had reclaimed the Nine Rings, could he not dole them out again? Could he have produced Nine new Nazgul, say, every two or three centuries?
I know he was "promising" to hand out some of the Dwarvish Rings (falsely promising, I'm sure) if the Dwarves would get the One Ring back from Bilbo, so rings can be re-assigned, but does it require that the first holder of a ring dies before this can happen? Cirdan passed the Red Ring on to Gandalf without dying, and Bilbo lived beyond his possession of the One, could not a Nazgul Ring be passed on likewise?
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Nazgûl
Jul 8, 2007 21:08:01 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Jul 8, 2007 21:08:01 GMT -6
I assume you are hinting at Sauron taking the rings of the nine any time after he had them in his power and then giving them to other men. If this were the case, he could have done it over and over and over again! Yikes! What a frightening army he could have built that way.
Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf willingly and it was not under the influence of the One Ring when he did. On the other hand, the nazgûl were under Sauron's command and in order to keep them that way, he may not have been able to take their rings (whether they were willing to give them up or not) and give them to other men without losing the first nine to his will.
However...if the nazgûl crackled and went out, what happened to their rings? Did they drop onto the land of Mordor where all the hot lava was flowing? If the One Ring perished in the lava or flames of Orodruin, then certainly the nazgûls' rings would have melted into oblivion if they landed into the melting mish mosh of Mordor. (kind of catchy phrase there--say it again) So after Sauron was defeated or turned into a spirit of malice, the nazgûl may have perished permanently because their rings were destroyed in the destruction of Mordor.
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Nazgûl
Jul 15, 2007 9:58:14 GMT -6
Post by Andorinha on Jul 15, 2007 9:58:14 GMT -6
I'll have to find the proper quotes here, but I'm pretty certain that JRRT finally decided that Sauron actually took the Nine Rings away from the Nazgul once those poor unfortunates became thoroughly enslaved. So, I think Sauron had the Nine Rings available for "reassignment" if he ever wanted to hand them out again. Perhaps though, he had to keep the Nine in order to maintain his control over the original 9 Nazgul?
I'll see what else I can find here.
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