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Post by Andorinha on Jan 4, 2006 2:37:35 GMT -6
Back in the year 2941, Bilbo and the 13 Dwarves run afoul of three large and contumacious creatures, the Trolls: Bert, William, and Tom. Are these the same brutes who terrorized the trollshaws, and back in 2930 slaughtered Arador, the chief of the Dunedain in the north. Two years later, 2933, Arador's son Arathorn II is himself slain (by the trolls?) and the baby Aragorn is whisked off to shelter in Rivendell/ Imladris.
Does anyone know if Tom, William, and Bert were really responsible for killing King Aragorn's father and grandfather alike? If so, Gandalf and the Hobbit/ Dwarven team did the Dunedain a great service by putting these peskey fellows permanently out of circulation...
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 4, 2006 17:45:00 GMT -6
Well....Bert, William, and Tom might have been the Trolls or in the party of Trolls that killed Arador back in 2930. That was only 11 years earlier than when the Dwarves and Bilbo stumbled upon them.
I looked in some of my books and they say Arador was killed by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell. Foster's book says that the Coldfells could be another name for The Trollshaws. Therefore, it is possible that Bert, William, and Tom had a hand in the killing.
But Arathorn was killed by ORCS not Trolls. He road out against Orcs with Elrond's sons and an arrow pierced his eye. I did not find specifically where they road to reach the Orcs, but it might have been in the same area or somewhere around Rivendell.
I have a lot more books and I will try to see if I can dig up anything else.
Good to hear from you again Andorinha.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 5, 2006 0:20:14 GMT -6
Ah! Thank You, Stormrider! I had absolutely missed/ or totally forgotten that Arathorn was nailed by the Orcs! So, that leaves the Troll Trio slightly less culpable...
I have never run across any other mention of Bert, Tom, and William (other than in the context of the Hobbit) in the JRRT books I have. Maybe I can find something in The Letters? I wonder that the authors of the various texts of critical lore on Tolkien do not address this small matter (or maybe they do -- there's so much published on JRRT now).
Nice chatting with the Old TR group again, hope you all had a great holidays!
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 5, 2006 7:21:30 GMT -6
Good idea! I was looking for Arador and Arathorn II when I searched my books...never thought to look for Bert, William, and Tom!
Do you think Bert, William, and Tom were the last Trolls to roam this area? The name "Trollshaws" sounds like it was a "village" of Trolls.
Perhaps Arador was successful in killing many Trolls before he was slain by them. There may have been other Dunedain along with Arador to help slay the majority of Trolls and bring Arador's body back. Perhaps Bert, William, and Tom were the last Trolls to survive in that battle...a lucky thing for Bilbo and the Dwarves!
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jan 5, 2006 16:11:49 GMT -6
I don't have many books to go by, but from what I have and from what you guys have mentioned...I think it is possible that Bert, Tom and William could be part of the group of Trolls that killed Arador. Even if Coldfells is not exactly where Trollshaws is they are close enough for the same group of Trolls to be wondering between. I do not think that Coldfells and Trollshaws are the same since Coldfells is North of Rivendell and Trollshaws is West of Rivendell.
There are 5 types of Trolls: Hill, Mountain, Snow, Stone and Olog-hai. Our 3 troll friends are not Olog-hai cuz those kind don't turn to stone and they only spoke the black speech. They probably weren't snow trolls since those kind would live in areas covered in snow (Encyclopedia of Arda says these kind were infered about in stories about the Long Winter). Seeing how Rivendell is West of the mountains and Trollshaws is West of there my guess is that they are far enough away from the mountains to rule that type out (these are mentioned in the Battle of Pelennor)...Which leaves Hill Trolls and Stone Trolls.... Stone Trolls were created by Sauron and lived in the Westlands of ME. Hills Trolls would be hill dwellers, but not of the hobbit sort (lol). To decide if Tom, Bert and William are Hill Trolls is our goal so that we can decide if they are the Hill Trolls that killed Arador. Appendix F part 1 leave some to think that T, B & W are Stone Trolls because they used a form of common speech, but also from what I read there I think they could have been Hill Trolls that were taken under Saurons wing and taught speech and then were considered Stone Trolls. Basically I guess this shows that it is possible for them to be the Trolls or at least part of the group of Trolls that killed Arador.
For sure we may never know..though it would be a great coincidence and one I think Tolkien would enjoy!
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 6, 2006 3:17:56 GMT -6
Stormrider and Desi: Wow! Super research from both of you! This has, at long last, got me really interested in the Middle-earth material again! THANKS!
Stormrider, I like the idea of a "village" of Trolls being tucked away somewhere in the landscape! Certainly there were quite a few of the creatures hanging about in Middle Earth -- especially as Desi points out just how many different varieties JRRT names! But, does "shaw" translate as "village?"
And I think Desi clears up one major point here by separating the Trollshaws from the "troll-fells" which are the Ettenmoors. Here, I think the actual etymologies of "shaw" and "fell" support her position rather than that given us by Foster. Of course, Foster merely suggests the possibility that Trollshaws = Coldfells = Ettenmoors, but after reading Desi's great data on the geography of the Rivendell area, I decided to look at just what might define the differences between a "fell" and a "shaw."
As you indicate, Stormrider, "shaw" is a frequent compound of modern English place names, quite often the name of a town. And, as we all know, JRRT used a good deal of Old English, Anglo-Saxon vocabulary as the base of his Hobbit Speech (and also for the Rohirrim). So I ran the words "shaw" and "fell" through an etymological dictionary of Anglo-Saxon to see if they might be used interchangeably (as Foster seems to think when he offers "Trollshaws" as possibly being the "Coldfells").
1. "Shaw" seems to come from the Old Norse "skeag" = beard. In Old English it becomes "sceaga" and by way of Middle English it is "shag." In place names, the "g" became a "w" giving the present form "shaw." "Shaw" had the general meaning of "woods," so the towns of Burnshaw, Longshaw, etc, all refer to the wooded nature of the original townsites, not to the fact that they were later villages.
I think our modern english term, "shaggy," which can refer to a matted, tangled beard or a matted tangled copice, a thicket of scrub trees, is also a derived form of "shag" and "shaw."
So I guess a "shaw," when found in Tolkien as a place name, would be an area of rough, "shaggy," wooded growth rather than a village. This certainly fits the description of the wooded zone through which Bilbo and the Dwarves were travelling when they met Tom, William, and Bert -- just before they went eastward enough to actually reach Rivendell. In fact, in his early version of the trilogy (published as "The Return of the Shadow" by Christopher Tolkien) JRRT actually defines "Trollshaw" = "Troll-wood," (p. 162).
2. A "Fell" also from Old Norse by way of Old English, refers to a more barren, upland area of roughly rolling terrain; usually found just before the actual mountains. The areas called "fells" today in Great Britain, are upland, foothills and mountainous terrain, usually high enough to be cold enough to have few trees if any at all.
In this case, I wonder if the Ettenmoors* (to the north of Rivendell and up against an arm of the Misty Mountains) might be the "Cold Fells" that Stormrider cites from Foster? Unfortunately, I cannot find "Coldfells" in the trilogy indices, but the Ettenmoors are reported by the knowledgeble Strider/ Aragorn as actually being the "troll fells," (chpt. 12; "Flight to the Ford," p. 268 PB, p. 212 HB). I also noticed that on the map prepared by Christopher Tolkien for his father, the Trollshaws are marked as a wooded zone, while the Ettenmoor/ troll-fells (which are possibly the Coldfells as well?) are shown without tree cover.
Here, I guess the association of the word "fell" would not allow us to see the "troll-fells," or the "Cold Fells" (treeless areas) as being the Trollshaws (a forested, scrubby area of packed thickets). So, I think the etymologies back up Desi on this! Maybe then, if Foster is incorrect on his guess that Trollshaws = Coldfells, he is also incorrect that Arador died in the fells? Stormrider, how certain is the data that Arador died in the "fells" rather than the "shaws?" Does Foster cite an actual quote from JRRT placing Arador in the "fells" at the time of his death? The LotR index I checked, just gives the date of Arador's death, and the agency: "trolls." So, Stormrider, if it is certain Arador died in "fell" country rather than "shaw" country (as Foster suggests), I guess it weakens the case for Bert, Tom, and William being the same trolls; being involved in both killing Arador and "harassing" the Dwarves and Bilbo.
But then, Desi comes to the rescue again (I hope!). As she points out, Trolls, are basically carnivorous predators, and might have a very wide-ranging territory over which they hunt for prey. I wonder then, as Desi suggests, if Bert-Tom-William might have come down out of the Troll-fells (Ettenmoors) to be closer to their food sources? Something (I THINK I remember) from the Hobbit -- can't find my dratted copy just now -- may hint that the Trolls did move about some, and had just recently settled in the Trollshaws. Anybody else remember that? Anybody who can find their copy of the Hobbit... But I can't recall that it says anything about where their former haunts may have been -- possibly the Ettenmoor/ Troll-fells? If Trolls do wander about a deal in search of "good pickin's," it seems entirely possible, as Desi states it, that they could have been up in the Ettenmoors (if this is where Arador was killed!) and then moved down to the Trollshaws later, just in time to meet up with 13 tasty Dwarves and a "Burrahobbit-snack."
Great Discussion! Really, my thanks to you both! _________
Good logic, Desi, on trying to see if the troll terminology is fixed, or fluid. I never thought about it, so we'll have to see if any of us can find anything on just how exclusive the terms "stone-troll," and "hill-troll" might be. Off hand, Desi, I'm guessing that some categories may overlap, just as the final LotR version of the trilogy sometimes uses multiple names (found in the earlier versions) for the same entity; or, the "stone-trolls" of the Hobbit become the "hill-trolls" in the trilogy?
_______________ *An interesting side issue here is that the name "Etten moors" is compounded from the words "eoten" or "ent" = giant, and moor = barren hill lands. This harks back to the earliest versions of the trilogy when the ents were not yet "tree-people" but simply a race of evil giants. Trolls, especially to Hobbits and Dwarves, would also be "gigantic." LOL!
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jan 6, 2006 6:30:47 GMT -6
Well, I found my copy of The Hobbit and looked into the Roast Mutton chapter....."You've et a village and a half between yer, since we came down from the mountains." So would this make these guys Mountain Trolls?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 6, 2006 7:54:51 GMT -6
I found the passages of Arador being taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells and Arathorn II riding with Elrond's sons against Orcs in Appendix A Section (v) at the very beginning of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen page 1032 in my book. So I would say that is certain since this is the only place I could find anything on the subject.
And about Trollshaws and Coldfells being the same...I wrote that wrong...Foster's states that the Ettenmoors and the Coldfells might be the same place not the Trollshaws. Sorry! I was rushing off to work when I posted my statement.
So the Coldfells are north of Rivendell and the Trollshaws are West. Bert, William, and Tom could have travelled both areas. Trolls are rather large and can cover a large area quickly with their large strides, right? 11 years passed between Arador's death and Bilbo's and the Dwarves' encounter with Trolls. Much land can be covered in that time...back and forth even.
Mountain-Trolls / Hill-Trolls isn't that close enough for our purpose of concluding that Bert, William, and Tom could have been the Trolls to take Arador?
It was very interesting learning about the meanings of Shaw and Fells, Andorinha. Thank you for posting that.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 6, 2006 18:43:32 GMT -6
This is starting to move into a Places of Middle-earth discussion now! lol! Here is a map from Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-Earth. The Coldfells are located at J-34, The Ettenmoors at J-33, and The Trollshaws at K-34. The Ettenmoors and Coldfells seem to be separated by the River Hoardale. The Trollshaws are definately not the same as either of these! I think Bert, William, and Tom could have covered the distance between all three of these areas within eleven years time. Since these all seem to be low hills or foothills, I would say that the three Trolls were definately Hill-Trolls which were the breed that killed Arador!
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Post by Desi Baggins on Jan 6, 2006 20:19:17 GMT -6
From what I see it looks like the Coldfells are a part/section of the Ettenmoors. Ettenmoors is written in a darker and larger font than Coldfells that is why I think this.
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 6, 2006 20:41:52 GMT -6
Scanning through The Hobbit in the Roast Mutton chapter I came across this passage: Then in the next paragraph, the part Desi quoted above is written about coming down from the mountains.
It looks like William led Bert and Tom away from their normal stomping grounds.
Another thing crossed my mind...gulp! Could Arador been eaten by the hill-trolls once he was killed? Hopefully he had been out patrolling and protecting the lands with other Dunedain and they were able to fight off the trolls enough to bring back Arador's body. Someone must have been with him in order to tell what happened to him at least.
Perhaps if the trolls had eaten Arador and others, the trolls went into hiding in the mountains to keep out of reach of any other Dunedain who might be looking for them.
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 7, 2006 4:03:33 GMT -6
Ahhh! I see! Great map, Stormrider!
Yeah, Desi, I also wondered about the Coldfells being in less bold type face, kind of makes the area look like a sub-section of the Ettenmoors!
This map put's things into perspective nicely. From my view, the Trollshaws, the Ettenmoors proper, and the "extension" called the Coldfells are indeed close enough to be part of the same general "realm of the Trolls." This would give the Trolls the two connected "upland" fell zones, and a warmer, more richly vegetated woodland in which to seek sustenance. I agree that all three of these areas would be close enough together for wandering Trolls to appear in any of these zones with no more than a week's travelling time.
Desi, thanks for the quotes from the Hobbit! Apparently William, Bert, Tom had stripped the fells (or "mountains") bare so that even lowland mutton was an acceptable diet, although something a bit more tasy, like Dwarves would make a pleasant treat. But, where the quote mentions "mountains," I think I agree with Stormrider, that it may not do to put too fine a meaning on that allusion. Hill-Trolls, Stone-Trolls, or Mountain Trolls, I bet all three could still find themselves at home in the rocky tors of the Trollshaws, or the upland Ettenmoor/ Coldfells, especially as the fells sort of merge into the "real" mountains without a defining boundary.
Here, the important thing (as Desi stated far above!) would be trying to understand what Tolkien meant by all the various Troll names he uses in the different books. Does he really mean each different troll name to represent a specific "race" of Trolls with very narrowly defined characteristics? Could Snow Trolls live outside the regions of perpetual ice? Would a Hill Troll have to always restrict his movement to hilly areas, staying out of the mountain-peak districts and avoiding the plains and river valleys? I still cannot find a solid set of definitions that would allow us to determine if Cave Trolls can never be found anywhere outside of caves, etc. In fact, the two defining restrictions I've found (which you kindly provided, Desi) may refer only to two basic types of Trolls, those who can function in the sun (Olog Hai), and those who petrify in it (Stone Trolls).
So, just how many actual "Troll-races" are there? Beats me, at least so far! I'll keep looking for some specifics on the various Troll types, but I am beginning to suspect that Trolls are one of those areas where Tolkien published before he had a chance to work out the details even to his own satisfaction. In 1954 (during the final pre-publication editing of LotR) Tolkien was still uncertain as to the origin of the Trolls, and even their status as living entities. In Letter #154 to Hastings, especially pp 190 - 191, Tolkien admits "I am not sure about Trolls." He sometimes listed Trolls as "non-creatures," automatons that have no real spirit of their own but are moved about by the directing mind of Morgoth or one of his lieutenants, like Sauron. In other places, Tolkien gives the Trolls a spirit, a twisted thing, but still they are independent, thinking creatures, possibly derived from Men (HOME vol X), or maybe just made up from the soil in mockery of Ents... Either way, their precise types, their powers, their attributes and capabilities, even their status as "beings with souls," all seems very vague.
Consequently, I am starting to feel that according to where Men and Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits might run into trolls, that is how they named them. Run into a perfectly respectable Stone Troll in a cave, and you shout: "Cave Troll!" If you run into a Mountain Troll stumbling through the woods, you might describe it as a "Forest Troll." A Mountain Troll lost in a sudden blizzard, becomes a "Snow Troll." LOL!
All I'm certain of now, is that Bert, Tom, and William are called Stone Trolls because they, unlike the Olog Hai Trolls, cannot withstand the sun; and these three Stone Trolls were living in or near the mountains when they decided to cross through the Ettenmoors or Coldfells to set up home in the wooded Trollshaws. Apparently, whether Tom, Bert, and William should be classified as Mountain Trolls, Hill Trolls, or just plain Stone Trolls -- these three were able to move through/ live in the separate biomes of the mountains, the fells, and the shaws.
Of course, whether these three actually "did-in" poor Arador, and maybe even gobbled-him-up, is merely circumstantial, but they certainly had the motive (hunger!), and the means for doing-in the Dunedain lord -- but did they actually have the opportunity! Well, they were able to travel about the area and could have shown up at any time in any of the zones, fells or shaws, and, after killing Arador, the revenge factor (as Stormrider puts it) might have kept these three high up in the mountains, hiding out...
Thanks Desi and Stormrider!!!
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 8, 2006 7:57:14 GMT -6
Here is a link from "Wikipedia" about Trolls. It starts with the Trolls from Scandinavian folk lore from which they originated and then goes on to describe them in other fairytales and legends, in Nordic art and literature, as troll dolls, American trolls, and in modern fantasy which includes literature (Yes JRRT's trolls are mentioned), comics, roll play games, and heavy metal music. The Scandinavian and Nordic tales both were read by JRRT and gave him some of his inspiration. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll#
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Post by Andorinha on Jan 9, 2006 1:19:57 GMT -6
An excellent source, Stormrider! I've read the main entry with relish, and now I'm going to work my way through the links. What I'm hoping to eventually do, is look at the categories Desi listed (Stone, Mountain, Hill, Cave, Snow and Olog Hai) and compare them with the more traditional folk and fairy tale trolls of the Nordic tradition. Maybe that will tell us if JRRT really meant his troll types to be very distinct races, or if he was just using the names as general, overlapping descriptives.
I'm also interested in how JRRT altered the fairy tail trolls to fit his special purposes in the Middle-earth stories. I also noticed that one source in the Wikipedia article does seem to indicate/ equate trolls and giants:
"As a rule of thumb, what would be called a "troll" in Norway would in Denmark and Sweden be a "giant" (jætte or jätte, derived from jötunn). ... In some Norwegian accounts, such as the middle age ballade Åsmund Frægdegjevar [1], the trolls live in a far northern land called Trollebotten – the concept and location of which seems to coincide with the Old Norse Jötunheimr."
Lots more to read! Thanks!
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 17, 2006 4:14:18 GMT -6
Hiya folks. Just kinda passing through. This is a very interesting discussion. About the Ettenmoors: In English folklore, there is a race of creatures called ettins. Like the words Andorinha mentioned, this derived from a term meaning simply "giant." But in some stories, "ettin" came to mean a specific type of huge troll-like monster, usually with multiple heads. Check out this link here, also from Wikipedia. Tolkien even gets a reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EttinJust thought that was interesting from a folklore/etymological (ettin-mological?) standpoint. Anyhow, in terms of how Tolkien changed the trolls for his stories-- I don't recall whether trolls turned to stone in daylight in the old myths. It's possible that some did but it doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule for the whole species. The idea that they are formed by the dark powers as mockeries of the Ents is obviously new as well, as Ents didn't exist in mythology (except for the word which, again, as pointed out by Andorinha, meant "giant"). Also, trolls in Scandinavian folklore come in all different sizes, from giant to miniature, so Tolkien's version decided on a fixed size.
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