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Post by Sparrow on Feb 7, 2005 0:07:07 GMT -6
When Thorin is unable to understand the thrush's speech, the aged raven Roac comes with tidings of Smaug's death and advice for dealing with the men. Why is Thorin so quick to dismiss Roac's advice, after he had acknowledged to Bilbo the wisdom of the ravens and the historical friendship between the dwarves and ravens? Why did Roan not try to persuade Thorin? What would you have advised Thorin to do?
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Post by Desi Baggins on Feb 12, 2005 7:50:50 GMT -6
I don't think it is the way of the ravens to try to pursue convincing Thorin. Maybe the birds realize the power the treasure has over Thorin.
I used to have a friend that was stubborn and I am stubborn too. So when we thought different things we never argued with each other, we would simply say we both are right and go on our way. But eventually the one that was wrong would figure out they were wrong and would say so. Sometimes arguing is just not worth it.
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 22, 2012 21:09:06 GMT -6
Thorin did not like to hear that others were blaming the Dwarves for their homelessness and the destruction of their town. It angered him that they would blame the Dwarves, even if the Dwarves were the ones who stirred up Smaug by sending Bilbo down and who gave away clues Smaug used to figure out who helped the Dwarves. Because the Men blamed the Dwarves, Thorin decided that he would not share anything with them. Thorin refers to those who want to take portions of the treasure as "thieves" and "the violent".
I have already mentioned that I could see myself getting the gold lust. I can only think that Thorin felt justified after many years of wanting revenge on Smaug and finally achieving it and getting to see and touch the hoard and that it has twisted and distorted his senses. The gold lust and knowing it is now freely his (due to the dragon's death) and the accusation that the Dwarves were to blame has really gripped Thorin's heart and made him unreasonable and unthinking to the point that greed has taken him over completely.
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Post by Andorinha on Oct 29, 2012 21:36:55 GMT -6
As this story was Tolkien's own creation, I suppose he could have given his dwarves any kind of personality set he might have wished. But it seems to me that he was heavily influenced by the Nordic tradition's interpretation of dwarfs; and their personality characteristics in the myths and sagas are decidedly "covetish," quarrelsome, choleric, pigheadedly stubborn, and violent. JRRT does, however, modify the stereotypic Nordic dwarfs a good deal, and, his dwarves, after their initial greedy reactions, eventually relent, and a compromise settlement of the treasure is made that benefits all, dwarves, hobbit, wizard, men, eagles, Beorn and even the Elves.
So, I'm guessing that Thorin's ill-tempered greed was Tolkien's way of connecting his Hobbit dwarves to the ancient traditional stock of saga-related stereotypes about dwarfs.
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 3, 2012 8:16:52 GMT -6
Andorinha, thanks for tying up Tolkien's Nordic influences for his Dwarves. Since I have not read any of the cultures and writings of those who influenced Tolkien, I am grateful to those who have and can point them out! Some day I should get some of those writings and read them!
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 8, 2012 14:59:28 GMT -6
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 8, 2012 15:39:19 GMT -6
Now, here is something very intriguing about "dwarfs" in general: both in the Nordic tradition and in the Classical Maya, New World tradition, dwarfs were associated with the Earth, and mining, and the underground realm in general... see PDF file "Dwarf Motif in Classic Maya Art," at the first url on: www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=maya+dwarfs&gbv=2&oq=maya+dwarfs&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...0.0.1.72.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1c.KPOLKPWqiD4"Modern Maya beliefs [maybe associated with European models after 1492?] indicate that there is a strong connection between dwarfs, the earth, and the underworld." (Miller, 1985, p. 143) Very peculiar, because Miller then goes on to imply that this Maya association of dwarfs and the underworld has pre-Columbian, Olmec roots -- so why would dwarfism be associated with the underworld/ mining, etc., in both cultures (Nordic and Maya) where, presumably, there was no contact? In Classical Maya times, pre-European, dwarfs were associated with the four corners of the earth: "Behind the king are two dwarves, causing one to ask, who were these enigmatic little people referred to so much in Maya mythology? Perhaps they are related to the ancient Olmec belief that four dwarves held up the cardinal points of the sky." cf www.mayasites.com/yaxch.html Now this gets very strange, as the Nordic tradition also uses Dwarfs as the bearers of the four cardinal points of the sky: "Four Dwarfs called North, South, East, and West (Old Icelandic Northri, Suthri, Austri, and Vestri) support the vault of heaven." (cf books.google.com/books?id=_m7k1Oi-cakC&lpg=PA46&dq=height%20Dvergar&pg=PA46#v=onepage&q=height%20Dvergar&f=true ) Hmmm, I find these coincidences VERY odd indeed! Does this mean there really was a race of Dwarfs (dwarves) known to both the ancient Olmec/ Maya and the Norse tribes! Oooo! I hear Twilight Zone music...
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 9, 2012 7:23:55 GMT -6
I started reading this link, but I have to go off to work. Will return soon to finish and also the other links in your second post. Dwarves "Came to life like maggots"? eeeew!
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 11, 2012 6:41:46 GMT -6
It doesn't surprise me that Dwarves are associated with the rocks and earth but I was surprised to learn that they were the gods' favorite servants and held such important position(s) as holding up the corners of the world! It seems odd that they were the same size as the gods and elves and only dwarfed in comparison to their surroundings (trees, mountains, etc.) Another thing that caught my eye while reading was that they were likened to spiders because they were so skillful.
As far as Mayan and old world references to small people, I am sure there were small people back then just as there are now. Could it be attributed in both cultures that being small may be attributed to being underground and in the earth due to lack of fresh air and sunshine may stunt the growth? Being underground seems natural to me that they would be miners. Living and digging underground you would naturally find ores, minerals, and gems! But it is odd to me that holding up the corners of the world seems to be part of all associations with dwarves.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 12, 2012 10:44:43 GMT -6
The wife suggests that real people who are dwarfed, might find mining a better occupation than chasing after wild or domesticated animals in hunting/ herding activities, or even grain farming/ ploughing? In mining, the smaller the tunnel, the less likely it is to collapse, (so the smaller the miner, the safer?) also a reason why children were often employed in mines. Additionally, dwarfed humans might be able to earn a living better by doing handicraft work around the home fires, hence may early have been associated with craftsmanship, tool making, flint-knapping, metallurgy? Beats me, wonder if any one has ever tried a serious study here as to why dwarfs are associated with smithing crafts, mining. Need to do more research!
Yeah, it is odd that the diminished size seems to come after the dwarfs were created in the Nordic tradition. As far as I know, dwarf representatives in other cultures were always distinguished by size first.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 12, 2012 12:44:37 GMT -6
Hmmm, not much out there on how dwarfism came to be associated with mining, but there is this: The physical condition of the boys and girls engaged in the collieries [mines] is much inferior to that of Children of the same years engaged in farming operations, in most trades, or who remain at home unemployed. These Children are, upon the whole, prejudicially affected to a material extent in their growth and development; many of them are short for their years. (Quoted in Parliamentary Papers, Volume 15, at page 184.) cf: www.awesomestories.com/flicks/mirror-mirror-snow-white/the-seven-dwarfs-german-minersHad not thought mining, even traditional style, might affect stature; maybe something to do with mining being hazardous, therefore only the desperate, ill-fed might apply for such jobs, and the ill-fed might be expected to be stunted (dwarfed) in their growth?
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 13, 2012 7:22:07 GMT -6
Being underground affected Gollum quite a bit, too! It just seems healthier having sunshine, fresh air, and warmth compared to darkness, stuffiness, and cold. I can agree that underground living would stunt people. I could see how they might become cantancerous and narly spirited. A good occupation for dwarves is also in the movies!
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Nov 16, 2012 14:24:45 GMT -6
One possibility is that both the Norse and the Mayans were inspired by an actual race of small stature. When I visited Ireland, I learned that many of their "little people" traditions are thought to come from stories of the aboriginal people of the British Isles, the Pritani (from whom we get the name "Britain"). These are the proposed first inhabitants of the island, i.e. the people that built things like Stonehenge and other ancient sites. Historians think they may have been shorter than the later Celts and lived in earth forts or caves. Hence the legends about little people living underground or vanishing into the earth. There doesn't seem to be a consensus among historians about the Pritani but the etymology section of this page talks about where the name probably came from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CruthinMaybe there were indigenous tribes in Scandinavia and Latin America that inspired legends about little people and dwarfs. That might explain the similar traditions among cultures that never met.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 17, 2012 5:27:23 GMT -6
RE Freddie's: "One possibility is that both the Norse and the Mayans were inspired by an actual race of small stature."
Yeah, almost every culture has a set of "local wee-ones" in its mythology, usually associated with magical powers, I think Tolkien was playing this angle in his intros to both The Hobbit and LOTR, where he assumes the legends of small folk known to his readers originate with human - hobbit interactions. And, of course, all human groups throw up both "midgets" and dwarfs, something like 1 in 250,000 chance for dwarfism.
And thanks for the url, more interesting material!
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 17, 2012 9:07:32 GMT -6
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