CH 17 Elves and Dwarves

[Desi Baggins]

We start this tale out and the narrator lets us like the dwarves. We are reading chapter by chapter hoping they get their treasure back from Smaug. We meet the elves and we are led into not liking them because they put the dwarves in prison. Now we are almost at the end of the book and the tables seem to have turned. The dwarves have their treasure, but have become rude. Also now we see how friendly the elves really are because they have been helping the men out in several ways.

This type of character change is usually used in mystery books. The character you thought was good ends up being the bad guy. What do you think of this kind of character build and change in relation to the Hobbit?

[Andorinha]

Another set of excellent questions, Desi.

Hmm, yeah, as narrator, JRRT does sort of "set the reader up." By the time we get through Mirkwood, I understand that the Dwarves can be a quarrelsome lot, but really seem good-hearted deep inside. They grumble about Bilbo the first half of the trek, but still come to his assistance time-after-time. Dori even allows Bilbo to climb up over his back into the relative safety of a tree just as the Wild Wargs are charging with their deadly intent. Only under the influence of the Dragon-treasure "madness," does Thorin really break with Bilbo, a break that seems total and irrevocable, though we soon find out -- it is not.

Now, just before the Battle of Five Armies can start, the Elves, who seemed relatively nasty when they imprisoned the Dwarves, suddenly look pretty good. They are more than simply "accepting" of poor Bilbo, they seem to find him a sterling sort of character. After all, he is going against his comrade Dwarves when he gives up their Arkenstone so that it might be used to buy a "fair" division of the Dragon's hoard and so "buy" peace.

This is quite a reversal, the Elves are no longer exclusively "the bad guys," and the Dwarves are no longer entirely the "good." But still, I got from this incident, the feeling that Tolkien was showing that both Elves and Dwarves can have a "good" side and a "bad," and in that sense, both these "races" show a definite sort of common humanity. At the end of the work, if I may be allowed a small spoiler here, both the Elves and the Dwarves go on about their separate lives, still grumbling a bit about each other, but willing after their mutual losses in the battle, to get along as best they can -- although, some 70 years + later, the representatives of these two people in LOTR are still quarreling (Gimli vrs Legolas) and have to find their own pact of mutual respect.

[Stormrider]

Was it just Gimil's grudge against Legolas because his family incarcerated Gloin? Maybe it was just a family feud at this point and it was only Legolas and Gimli who had to learn to find friendship with each other.

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

I didn't really see this as a reversal. From the start, the Dwarves seemed like decent people with one big flaw -- their lust for treasure and revenge. Granted, this was understandable because of the injustices done to them by Smaug. It just became magnified over the course of the story. All the negative traits that the Dwarves had already shown -- treasure-lust, stubbornness, a slightly huffy or arrogant attitude -- became that much worse when the treasure was in their grasp.

The Elves never seemed evil or nasty to me. The Dwarves had invaded their land and refused to explain why they were there. Given the ancient rivalry of their peoples and the danger and darkness of Mirkwood, it didn't seem unreasonable to lock them up until they had more information. The Elves didn't mistreat the Dwarves and they fed them after they'd been starving. They were just showing caution towards outsiders. You could argue it was a bit too much but it didn't seem evil to me.

I spent much of that scene shaking my head at Thorin's stubbornness to give an explanation. He could have simply said they were passing through Mirkwood to go visit their kin in the Iron Hills or something. But he said nothing and had a general attitude of a guy who's been arrested and tells the cops, "I'm not giving you pigs a thing!" Is it surprising that the Elves were suspicious?

Stormrider, I don't think it was just Gimli and Legolas who disliked each other. Gimli had a more personal stake than most but I don't think relations between the Dwarves and Elves were much better in general. There was still a lot of resentment on both sides over the Necklace of the Dwarves incident from the First Age. And the Elves may have blamed the Dwarves for unleashing the Balrog in Moria.

[Stormrider]

Freddie:

You have a good point there! Looking at it more from the Elves' viewpoint, the Dwarves did invade their home and were unobliging in revealing why they were there. Thorin could have come up with some other less revealing reason for passing through Mirkwood. (Or is it that Dwarves can't tell little white lies?)

As Andorinha said: "both the Elves and the Dwarves go on about their separate lives, still grumbling a bit about each other, but willing after their mutual losses in the battle, to get along as best they can." So other Elves and Dwarves may still have had distrust and resentment toward each other from the Necklace incident--and perhaps the Mirkwood Elves still had it but were trying to work it out with the Dwarves after the Battle of Five Armies was over. It was probably a very shaky truce at that.

But I can see how releasing the Balrog would make the Elves angry at the Dwarves again. However, the Balrog was holed up in Moria and wasn't invading other lands (even if he was near Lothlorien).

Andoinha: It does seem like JRRT is showing us all peoples have human qualities and can have good and bad days depending on whose point of view you are looking at it.

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: "But I can see how releasing the Balrog would make the Elves angry at the Dwarves again. However, the Balrog was holed up in Moria and wasn't invading other lands (even if he was near Lothlorien)."

Hmmm, now this sounds like a "double-standard" trick to me: the Dwarves, as JRRT put it, delved too deeply, too greedily following the veins of mithril ore in Moria. Eventually these veins reached down to wherever the Balrog was "sleeping." So the Dwarves are faulted for "releasing" this great monster. But did anyone ever blame the Elves for giving Sauron the idea of making the One Ring? Here, Tolkien tells us that the Noldoran Elves were especially desirous of perverting the course of Middle-earth history, trying to stop, or at least retard The Fading. Celebrimbor had the idea of making/ using the Rings of Power to preserve parts of Middle-earth as they were in the First Age. This idea, of focusing great "magical" power through rings was then corrupted by Sauron -- the Dark lord made His Ring, not to preserve fair and wondrous things, but as an instrument of Domination. Using the basic Elven plan for the rings, augmented by his own foul additions, Sauron created his supremely Evil One Ring. Perhaps, if Celebrimbor had never started the process of ring making, Sauron would not have thought of it himself, and his power would not have grown so quickly?

But, even though Sauron got the idea of the rings of power from the Elves, I don't think Men and Dwarves ever blamed the Noldor for "unleashing" a vastly enhanced Sauron upon Middle-earth, did they? LOL, seems to me, when the Elves complain that the Dwarves "woke Evil" in Moria, it is a case of the Elven pot calling the Dwarven kettle black...

[Andorinha]

RE Fredeghar's: "The Elves never seemed evil or nasty to me."

Hmm, I got the feeling from The Hobbit narrative (the revised edition, 1966 I think, that came out after LOTR, and contained several departures from the first, the 1937 edition) that the Rivendell Elves were quite a nice bunch, jovial, frolicking, teasing with the Dwarves and Bilbo -- but showing no resentment towards them just because they were Dwarves. Yet, I think Elrond, with his descent from Beren and Luthien, was actually closer to Thingol than were the Wood-elves. If there ever had been any animosity on Elrond's part it apparently was long ago forgotten/ forgiven. But the more perilous Wood-elves seem to hang onto the grudge long after it should have been dropped. Anyway, as JRRT makes clear, the tribe of Dwarves who got into the fight that led to Thingol's death, had nothing to do with the People of Durin. So the Wood-elves grudge seems aimed at Dwarves in general, a blanket sort of discrimination?

Perhaps the way to understand this problem is to look at the very early draft versions of The Hobbit? I think, in Rateliff's book, Mr. Baggins, he somewhere addresses this. As I recall (imperfectly!?) the first Wood-elves were listed as "Dark Elves," (Svart-alfar?) and were primitive "savages" who had bone and stone weapons, and lived in the trees or in rude huts on the forest floor. No great palace underground, no high magic in the gates, no beautiful treasures, or "civilized pleasures" like wine, etc. These "primitive savage" Elves were much closer to the hostile type of Elf associated with the Anglo-Saxons, Elves who could be deadly even to innocent people.

Where is that Dratted Fanuidhol? I think she has a copy of both the Rateliff volumes -- any idea where this passage is found, Fan? Maybe I've got it all mixed up, just borrowed Rateliff once or twice a couple of years back, going on my faulty memory here.

Anyway, if Tolkien was originally seeing the Wood-elves (but not the folk of Rivendell) as "stone age savages," their animosity towards the Dwarves may be more understandable?

[Stormrider]

RE: Andorinha's comment: "Hmmm, now this sounds like a "double-standard" trick to me: the Dwarves, as JRRT put it, delved too deeply, too greedily following the veins of mithril ore in Moria. Eventually these veins reached down to wherever the Balrog was "sleeping." So the Dwarves are faulted for "releasing" this great monster. But did anyone ever blame the Elves for giving Sauron the idea of making the One Ring? Here, Tolkien tells us that the Noldoran Elves were especially desirous of perverting the course of Middle-earth history, trying to stop, or at least retard The Fading. Celebrimbor had the idea of making/ using the Rings of Power to preserve parts of Middle-earth as they were in the First Age. This idea, of focusing great "magical" power through rings was then corrupted by Sauron -- the Dark lord made His Ring, not to preserve fair and wondrous things, but as an instrument of Domination. Using the basic Elven plan for the rings, augmented by his own foul additions, Sauron created his supremely Evil One Ring. Perhaps, if Celebrimbor had never started the process of ring making, Sauron would not have thought of it himself, and his power would not have grown so quickly? "

Now there is a good point! I wonder if the Dwarves did hold that whole ring-making incident against the Elves. The Elves made many rings (however,the three Elven rings were the most powerful). When Sauron tried to control them with his evil ring, they were aware of his presence, so they took their three off and fled with them.

Sauron took control of the many other rings the Elves made. Now the Elves never gave the rings to the Dwarves--Sauron did (and he also gave 9 rings to Men). The Dwarven rings helped the Dwarves gain wealth and treasures but along with that came greed. Even though the Elves made the Dwarves' rings and did not save those when they fled, it was Sauron who tricked the Dwarves into taking them.

I can see how the Dwarves would have held the Elves responsible for making rings of power and letting those fall into Sauron's hands. Even if the Elves didn't give out the rings, they were still available to Sauron to do this. But there is always free choice to accept a ring or not.

I don't recall the Dwarves (or anyone else) actually holding the ring-making against the Elves and blaming them for it. Maybe those were inner thoughts of anger against the Elves?

[fanuidhol]

Oct 5, 2011 21:59:00 GMT -6 Andorinha said:

RE Fredeghar's: "The Elves never seemed evil or nasty to me."

Hmm, I got the feeling from The Hobbit narrative (the revised edition, 1966 I think, that came out after LOTR, and contained several departures from the first, the 1937 edition) that the Rivendell Elves were quite a nice bunch, jovial, frolicking, teasing with the Dwarves and Bilbo -- but showing no resentment towards them just because they were Dwarves. Yet, I think Elrond, with his descent from Beren and Luthien, was actually closer to Thingol than were the Wood-elves. If there ever had been any animosity on Elrond's part it apparently was long ago forgotten/ forgiven. But the more perilous Wood-elves seem to hang onto the grudge long after it should have been dropped. Anyway, as JRRT makes clear, the tribe of Dwarves who got into the fight that led to Thingol's death, had nothing to do with the People of Durin. So the Wood-elves grudge seems aimed at Dwarves in general, a blanket sort of discrimination?

I think it is important to look at Elrond's history, here. First of all, he was not a part of the legendarium, prior to The Hobbit. So, JRRT had to give him a backstory that would allow him to be civil to Dwarves.
Elrond, though a blood relative of Thingol, actually spent a portion of his time with the Noldor -- who were not unfriendly with Dwarves. If you remem-ber the "Voyage of Earendil" chapter of Sil, Elrond and his brother were captured by Feanor's boys and kept by Maglor. Maglor and Elrond developed some kind of good relationship.
Then, he was taken under the wing of Gil-Galad, who sent him to Eregion, during the trouble with Sauron and the rings of power in the Second Age. The Noldor there had the closest relationship with Dwarves. Elrond and "a remnant of the Noldor" found Imladris after Eregion is laid waste. (Appendix B - Second Age, LOTR)

Oct 5, 2011 21:59:00 GMT -6 Andorinha said:

Perhaps the way to understand this problem is to look at the very early draft versions of The Hobbit? I think, in Rateliff's book, Mr. Baggins, he somewhere addresses this. As I recall (imperfectly!?) the first Wood-elves were listed as "Dark Elves," (Svart-alfar?) and were primitive "savages" who had bone and stone weapons, and lived in the trees or in rude huts on the forest floor. No great palace underground, no high magic in the gates, no beautiful treasures, or "civilized pleasures" like wine, etc. These "primitive savage" Elves were much closer to the hostile type of Elf associated with the Anglo-Saxons, Elves who could be deadly even to innocent people.

Where is that Dratted Fanuidhol? I think she has a copy of both the Rateliff volumes -- any idea where this passage is found, Fan? Maybe I've got it all mixed up, just borrowed Rateliff once or twice a couple of years back, going on my faulty memory here.

Andy, you may be faulty, but not your memory. Page 316 and there abouts, of the first volume, do paint the wood elves in a primitive light. But, where else would "elf-shot" come from? Rateliff explains in a note at the end of the chapter that during the Medieval age arrowheads that were found were called elf-shot. I love how Tolkien weaves folk tradition into his writings.

Rateliff also recommends a Shippey article, which I found online:
muse.jhu.edu/journals/tolkien_studies/v001/1.1shippey.html#REF1

And I am the darling Fan, not dratted...Better be nice, or I'll stop looking up things for you.
Fan

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Hmm, I kind of regret making the point about the Balrog. I don't know if there was actually a double standard or if the Elves held a grudge against the Dwarves for that reason. I was just thinking of things the Elves might have blamed the Dwarves for, reasons that the hostility between their peoples remained for so long.

As for Elrond being more tolerant of the Dwarves than the Wood-elves, he was counted among the wise and had regular dealings with many peoples. He was probably more open-minded than most. The Wood-elves were more rustic and isolated and were thus probably distrustful of outsiders and prone to keeping the age-old Elf/Dwarf rivalry alive.

[Andorinha]

Er, uh, yes... Really, no "drattings" allowed? Perfectly good Dwarvish/ Hobbitish expression, you know -- supposed to be a sign of free and easy camaraderie, "good natured" badinage and all... Sigh. So that probably means "confustications" are out as well? OK, OK: We all Thank You Most Prettily, Fanuidhol, "the darling" of Tolkien's Ring, and the wunnerfulest of Middle-earth encyclopaedists, without whose precise references all of us would be doomed to our vague recollections, and faulty paraphrasings...

Quite sincerely, Thank You Fan! Let me say, I regard you (dratted or darling) as quite akin in function here to Mr. Starbuck. Drat it, now where is the proper quote when I need it -- nay, I'll not trouble you for it Fan -- though I'll bet a "Spanish Ounce" against a bent shoe nail that you know it. Paging, paging... "I will have no man in my boat who is not afraid of a whale." Nope, that's not it at all, paging some more...

Aha, I have it now! "Starbuck was no crusader after perils; in him courage was not a sentiment; but a thing simply useful to him, and always at hand upon all mortally practical occasions. Besides, he thought, perhaps, that in this business of whaling, courage was one of the great staple outfits of the ship, like her beef and her bread, and not to be foolishly wasted." (Moby Dick, p. 110) Now, we just replace "Starbuck" with "Fan," "whaling" with "TR discussion," and "courage" with "Middle-earth knowledge" -- and we have, I think, a fit!

A bit more on "Elf-shot"

Elf-shot (or elf-bolt or elf-arrow) is a word found in Scotland and Northern England, first attested in a manuscript of about the last quarter of the 16th century. Although first attested in the sense 'sharp pain caused by elves', it is later attested denoting Neolithic flint arrow-heads, which by the 17th century seem to have been attributed in the region to elvish folk, and which were used in healing rituals, and alleged to be used by witches (and perhaps elves) to injure people and cattle. So too a tangle in the hair was called an elf-lock, as being caused by the mischief of the elves (or especially by Queen Mab), and sudden paralysis was sometimes attributed to elf-stroke. Compare with the following excerpt from an 1750 ode by Willam Collins:

There every herd, by sad experience, knows
How, winged with fate, their elf-shot arrows fly,
When the sick ewe her summer food forgoes,
Or, stretched on earth, the heart-smit heifers lie.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf

Hmmm, yeah, estimable Fanuidhol, Elrond, being, somewhat forcibly associated with the Noldoli might have given Elrond a glimpse of the "better" sort of Dwarves, and, of course, to make The Hobbit narration work, he has to be on friendly terms with Thorin and Company.

Page 316, eh, I'll see if I can "google it up," sometimes the book search allows a couple of pages to be read at a time...

Got it!

Are the wood elves wicked? Well not particularly -- indeed not at all. But most of them are descended from the ancient elves who never went to the great Fairy Land of the west, where the Light-elves and the Deep-elves (or Gnomes) and the Sea-elves lived, and grew fair, and learned and invented their magic and their cunning craft and the making of marvelous things. (Mr. Baggins, 315)

... To this cave they dragged Gandalf [originally Thorin was Gandalf, and the wizard was Bladorthin] Not too gently, for they did not love dwarves. They had had wars in ancient days with dwarves...

... Wood-elves are not goblins, and are reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies when they have them as prisoners. Except to spiders. These they hate above all things, and fear for few of them have swords of iron or steel at all. Hardly any at all even now. None I expect in those days. They fight chiefly with clubs, and bows, and arrows pointed with bone or stone. (Mr. Baggins, 316)

As "primitive" hunters, the Elves would have been a highly secretive people, and would have jealously guarded their hunting grounds against all intruders, even Dwarves and Hobbits...

[Andorinha]

RE Stormrider's: "I can see how the Dwarves would have held the Elves responsible for making rings of power and letting those fall into Sauron's hands. Even if the Elves didn't give out the rings, they were still available to Sauron to do this. But there is always free choice to accept a ring or not. " (my emphasis)

Yes, the Dwarves and Men who took rings apparently had the option of refusing them. I wonder if any ever did? Seven rings for the seven Dwarven houses, and all the rings seem to have been accepted without qualms? As for the Nine rings for Men, we are told some of those who became Nazgul started out "good," maybe they were "tricked" by Sauron into thinking the rings would have few bad consequences? Still, really "goodie" types like Aragorn, Faramir, and Prince Imrahil would, I believe, have refused these rings...

[Andorinha]

RE Fredeghar's: "Hmm, I kind of regret making the point about the Balrog. I don't know if there was actually a double standard or if the Elves held a grudge against the Dwarves for that reason. I was just thinking of things the Elves might have blamed the Dwarves for, reasons that the hostility between their peoples remained for so long." (my emphasis)

Good grief, Freddie, had you and Stormrider not mentioned the Balrog, we would have had little or nothing to discuss at all -- and we would not have been able to draw upon the "undratted" Fanuidhol's store of ME wisdom! So, I thank you and Stormrider too!

[Stormrider]

Speaking of Balrog, did any of the races even know it was lurking down in the bowels of Moria? The Dwarves were probably just digging as they normally do without realizing it lurked down there.

But good thing Freddie mentioned Balrog because this was an good discussion to read again.

[Andorinha]

Yeah, this is a good re-read!

I think Tolkien mentioned that The Dwarves suspected something was lurking at the roots of their domain, something that gave Caradhras mountain a dangerous, evil aspect. But, apparently they had no idea it was a Balrog. They kept on digging under the Redhorn ("greedily" as Tolkien puts it) because that was the only way to get mithril. Even after its release, I don't think the Dwarves were able to recognize it as a Balrog of Morgoth. They simply called it Durin's Bane, and in LOTR, both Gandalf and Legolas seem to have learned, for the first time, just what the Bane was.

So, I think even the Fellowship went into Moria with an imperfect understanding of what might await them. The balrog certainly did not disturb Gandalf on his earlier trip through Khazad-dum. Even Aragorn, who had been in Moria before, did not know why he feared the place so, he just did not want to re-enter it at all, sensing some unknown force of evil that had not actually revealed itself during his first venture. Sounds like the Balrog had long periods of deep sleepfulness? Likewise, I don't think Galadriel or Celeborn knew precisely what it was until after Legolas told them.

May have to re-read those sections to be sure...