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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:08:44 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:08:44 GMT -6
These are posts from the Archive Forum which I have moved over here to continue with our discussion on the request of Andorinha. From: Majah 12/3/03 Hello Everyone! I ran across a copy of Tree and Leaf in my favorite used book store a few months ago. I was thrilled to find it and to be able to read JRR’s essay on fairy stories as well as the other poems and stories that are in there…(ESPECIALLY the delightful story “Leaf by Niggle”…but more about that one later!) As you all know, I am not secure in my ability to orate on the life and literary prowess of our esteemed old man, so this is definitely a step out of my comfort zone! I discovered that another TR member Merlin the Mad has the whole essay printed on his web site and then the wheels in the head began to turn. I asked him if I may use his link to share with all of you who do not have the book. I would like to open this thread to allow us to read the essay and then discuss it. I will enjoy talking about it with all of you but I am not an expert here…just a fellow student…so shall we? The artwork here is a drawing of the front cover design of the book which is a sketch by the man himself. Of course I then went into my editing programs and “Fixed” it up a bit!!! Majah Do you have the picture you had posted on the original thread so you could re-post it here? I thought we could break down the reading so that we could begin discussing so I would ask that you read up to the section that starts as Origins. Here's the link to the whole essay larsen-family.us/~1066/onfairystories.html(Thanks Merlin the Mad)
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:16:02 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:16:02 GMT -6
From: Stormrider 12/4/03
Hmmmm. It seems many people have been mislead as far as what should and should not be a faerie tale! My first thought is: because "Faerie" is so difficult to describe according to the prof., how is he sure that what he says is the true faerie tale is correct? Or is he describing what he feels a faerie tale should be and how he will model his own faerie tales? It seems even the dictionaries, etc., did not give a correct description of faeries, Faerie land, or faerie tales either. So what source is Tolkien gathering his vision of the true faerie tale from? I know I have always been under the impression that faeries were small, winged, and magical, which Tolkien says is not correct! So I thought it would be fun to make a list of the misconceptions we have been under of what Faerie, faeries, and faerie tales are and what Tolkien says is the truth. I'll start out with a list on what faeries are or aren't! Description of a faerie:
Misconception --They are diminutive in size. Flower or butterfly size, sprites with antannae. --They have supernatural powers or developed senses. They have a great influence over good or evil. --They are unreal or incredible to believe in. --They can become invisible.
The Truth! --Some are small but not diminutive. Smallness is not characteristic of faeries as a whole. --Their magic is the ability to play on the desires of man's body and his heart rather than with supernatural powers. --They are natural people of mortal blood and bone. --They do not look like what they are.
I think I have that all right! Please add to the list above or correct it if I read something wrong!
How about someone else making a list of the realm of Faerie--Just what is it? See if you can list its misconceptions and truths as I did with faeries.
Then we can go on to what does and does not make up a faerie tale.
--Stormrider
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:17:31 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:17:31 GMT -6
From: Majah 12/3/03
well first of all...isn't this just Tolkien's opinion? i do not believe that we can call it gospel yet? he he although we revere the old man i imagine their are many who would not always agree with his definitions. i agree with a lot with many of his perceptions like the Beast Tales but i am pretty unsure as to what i consider Fairies or Faerie...?
seems to me he is trying to say that Faerie is a concept but not just a character? sorry Storm making charts is too much like homework but maybe later i will come up with something thanks for sharing Majah
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:18:16 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:18:16 GMT -6
From: Stormrider 12/5/03
Right, well, I have always had my own ideas of faeries, too. But I thought since this is JRRT's essay we could define things his way and make a couple of visual comparisons for easy viewing!
It was not meant to seem like homework I thought it would be fun I guess we view homework in a different light! lol! Not that I think all homework is fun either! Do you think that he was referring to Narnia when he spoke of Beast Tales versus Faerie Tales? I have never read Narnia but from what others have said about those stories by C.S.Lewis, it sounds like animals are given human qualities and the ability to be heroes. I agree that does not sound like a Faerie Tale, but more of a fable perhaps? My Websters New World Dictionary gives these definitions: Fairy--Folklore, a tiny, graceful being in human form, with magic powers Fairy Tale--A story about fairies, giants, etc.; an untrue story Fairy Land--The imaginary land where fairies live; A lovely, enchanting place Fable--A fictitious story, usually about animals, meant to teach a moral lesson; a myth or legend. OK, so "Of Faeries" is the way JRRT saw them, their realm, and how stories about them should be written. Was he setting the mood, theme, or qualities for other stories he has written or was going to write? It would be interesting to see how he sticks to his theories and definitions in his writings. Stormrider
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:18:52 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:18:52 GMT -6
From: Music Mom 12/5/03
I haven't posted for so long I'm not sure this will go where I intend it to go. The "style" seems to be different than it was before. I'm trying to reply to Stormrider in the discussion on Tolkiens essay about Fairy Tales and her reference to the Narnia tales.. I can't join the discussion until I read the essay, but I have read the Narnia tales (it's a fammily tradition--I'm buying a hardbound boxed set for my not quite 2 year old grandson for Christmas this year. It will be waiting for him when he's ready--his Dad started reading them when he was 6.) Lewis does give his animal characters human qualities and the ability to talk (and think). You might put it in the catagory of "fable"--Lewis certainly had a point he wanted to get across and a "moral" to his stories. They definitely have allegorical features (especially LION, WITCH & WARDROGE, MAGICIAN'S NEPHEW, AND LAST BATTLE)--a point that diminished its worth in Tolkien's estimate. This was quite a bone of contention between them. I am certain that niether Lewis or Tolkien would have consideraed the Narnia tales "fairy tales." They are meant for children so they do not have the structure, depth, nor the consistancy of Tolkien's work. However, they are delightful fantasy reading for any age--god stories even if you aren't interested in the allegorical aspects. I hope I can get to the essay and read it--your discussion sounds intriguing so far. I found the "chart" very helpful--I, too, like to organize my thoughts in similar ways. I keeps me "on task!" MusicMom
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:20:17 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:20:17 GMT -6
From: Majah 12/5/03
i get the feeling that Tolkien was not particularly fond of the fairy description? i believe he did not think his work were fairy stories? maybe some were a little geared to children but they still lay along the lines of fantasy not fairy? can someone clarifly that for me in case i am getting off the track. (i have also read about the riff between JRR and CS and thought a lot of it was tied to the fact that JRR was a little miffed that CS finally found Christianity and then wrote such a successful work as the Narnia series? i find that series to have a biblical flavor myself but that is entirely a different discussion he he) and Storm...i LOVE your charts...but since i spent all day in a javascript class i just didn't have the energy to think of making any myself. (and you also said i didn't have to do this like a study, remember?) i am more "a scraps of paper laying on my computer desk" kind of person, which is why i have a hard time thinking in a linear fashion! so in my VERY long winded way...what i wanted to ask is... Would you say that Tolkien believed in "Faerie" but without necessarily liking or believing in fairies? (Kinda like Fang!)
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:21:03 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:21:03 GMT -6
From: jerseyshore 12/6/03
Tolkien may have been thinking of Lewis when he makes his remarks about talking animals not necessarily being a part of fairy stories. I agree with his objection to stories in which "the animal form is only a mask upon a human face." This type of children's story has always annoyed me. I have no problem with talking animals, but I strongly dislike the animals that dress, talk, and act in a manner that makes them seem more like humans in animal costume. Tolkien seems to share this feeling, and I think this may have given him misgivings about some episodes in the Narnia books.
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:21:52 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:21:52 GMT -6
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:22:48 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:22:48 GMT -6
From: Majah 12/7/03
thanks Olorie! i had sorta remembered something but thought it was on this Other Lit thread so i gave up looking for it... i am going to check it out and probably bring some here if that is ok with you? i hadn't intended to pull into the christian aspects but seems it is hard not to sometimes? i am a late bloomer to a lot of the "other" Tolkien literature so i am very much a newbie here! that's why i started this thread...to help me learn and understand more about ALL his work! thanks so much and here's a hug!
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:23:36 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:23:36 GMT -6
From: Merlin The Mad 12/7/03
Majah said she was going to do this, and I didn't notice she had started up this thread until now. It was Olorie who emailed me a copy of Tolkien's "On Fairy Stories" quite a little while ago - last winter I think. I used it to put up the webpage Majah linked to. I think that Tolkien is quite clear on his definitions of "Fairie." It is not stories about fairies or elves, per se, but rather any story that takes place in the realm of "fairie." That is, where secondary belief causes the mind of the reader to believe what he is reading. The requirements Tolkien otherwise places on what is and what is not a fairy story are arguable: especially the restriction on mechanics. And did he not require that the story take place outside of the timeframe of the reader's own life ? I find this terribly restricting: because several English-born modern stories that utterly captivated my secondary belief are modern in setting: Mythago Wood; and another story about a tapestry/rug that contains living beings which escape when the tapestry/rug gets huge and overlays a sizeable portion of English countryside. (I can't for the life of me recall the title, or even very many of the characters: but one of the dark ones was named "Shadwell", and he had a jacket that held the things his victims most wanted to possess: if this rings anyone's bells, PLEASE do come forward with the title and author: I would love to reread, or at least peruse, this book again.) The former story was the better of the two. Another very believable modern fairy story is Bones of the Moon, which I highly recommend. And yet another, now no longer (for many years going back) in our timeframe, is Dracula by Bram Stoker: that yarn utterly reads as believeable: I feel that if I were to research the news stories and diaries/letters of the characters that I would find them archived away somewhere. But perhaps at the time a story is written it cannot (by Tolkien's definitive restrictions) be part of fairy: and later, as it passes further into the past, it is admitted into the canon of accepted fairy tales: in which case, Dracula did not then, but does now, belong to this class of literature. So I am not really in agreement with Tolkien's limitations on what classifies as a fairy story: I think the only strictly essential element is this believability: if the story transports you into a realm where fantastic, inexplicable things occur, then that is part of Fairie. MtM
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:24:20 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:24:20 GMT -6
From: Fangorn 12/8/03 MTM, it is called "Weaveworld" by Clive Barker. I read it many years ago, but remember I enjoyed it thoroughly. I am also enjoying this thread thoroughly, and hope to add my two coppers when I catch some serious academic time. Fang p.s. And yes, I like the realm of Faerie, but not little winged sprite thingies, lol
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:25:06 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:25:06 GMT -6
From: Sparrow 12/8/03 Stormy - my take was that faeries (I am also thinking of elves and hobbits) do have developed senses. I differ with your choice of the word mortal in the chart; although faeries are flesh and blood, they do not have a mortal life span (again I am thinking particularly of elves who are more or less immortal, in that they do not feel the 'waning of the years.') Majah, if you don't like making charts, don't dispair! You can make lists, and maybe you can get Stormy to put them into charts for you. Stormy, I take Narnia to be an example of the "Beast Tales" Tolkien referenced. Some of Lewis's animals talk, wear clothes and are otherwise personified, including the ability to be heroes or villains. The stories also include non-talking animals, which are just regular animals as we know them. Majah wrote: JRR was a little miffed that CS finally found Christianity and then wrote such a successful work as the Narnia series? Actually, I thought the real division was Tolkien was disappointed that Lewis chose Protestantism over Catholicism. Music Mom! Nice to hear from you! MtM: Would you say "secondary belief" is the same thing as "willing suspension of disbelief"? Majah, congrats on starting this intriguing and active discussion! Best to all, Sparrow
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:25:56 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:25:56 GMT -6
From: Merlin The Mad 12/8/03 "WEAVEWORLD" ! YES ! Thanks fang, you have delivered my poor brain of one deadend that has been alive and bothersome for literally years: I have asked quite a few times here and there, and NO ONE until now (you) could give me any joy. I shall go forth at once and try and secure a copy to reread. MtM: Would you say "secondary belief" is the same thing as "willing suspension of disbelief"? Nope. There is nothing willing about it. I have picked up books (examples are the ones listed above in my last post) that I was sure were going to be either insipid, somewhat stupid in part, or downright stinkers: only to be pulled in. TLOTR was my first experience with this phenomenon: my little brother had read the books and went on and on about how cool they were. He was in c. 8th grade at the time, so why would a freshman in high school take such a recommendation seriously ? Silly me. I discovered in my 20's that TLOTR is the most fantastic, believeable and wonderful place to hang out ever written. Middle-earth in fact exists. I have a theory: JRR was inspired by the subliminal dramatic arts of elves to write it, ergo it is true. (I am not called "the Mad" for nothing.) MtM
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:26:44 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:26:44 GMT -6
From: Stormrider 12/8/04 Sparrow: I was putting down what Tolkien thought about faeries, not what I thought. The words "mortal blood and bone" were his! At least that is what I thought he was saying! But I have to agree with you that Elves are more immortal than mortal. However, they can be killed which is definately a mortal shortcoming! Stormrider
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Origins
Dec 13, 2004 21:28:01 GMT -6
Post by Stormrider on Dec 13, 2004 21:28:01 GMT -6
From: Sparrow 12/10/04 MTM, OK, I see the distinction. Well, Stormy, if it is Tolkien's word, I can't argue with it. I was drawing from my understanding of elves as depicted in Tolkien's works. That issue of elves being killable is why I said "more or less" mortal
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