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Post by Stormrider on Jun 3, 2007 5:51:05 GMT -6
Chapter entitled: Ancient History:
The Ring verse as we know it was included in this chapter; however, the earlier drafts of it as Tolkien was struggling to work out how many rings there were and who had them follow:
The first complete form reads: Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Three for Mortal Men that wander far, One for the Dark Lord on his dark thron In the Land of Mor-dor where the shadows are. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mor-dor where the shadows are.
In the above version, Tolkien still had a vision of Elf-Wraiths who had hidden their rings in secret places and cast them away.
The next preliminary verse for ring distribution goes like this: Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die, Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Three for the Elven-kings of earth, sea, and sky, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne.
The three Elven Rings were first called the Rings of earth, air, and sky and the above verse switch "air" with "sea".
There is a passage that stated: "But all the Nine Rings of Men have gone back to Sauron, and borne with them their possessors, kings, warriors, and wizards of old, who became Ring-wraiths and served the maker, and were his most terrible servants." Another note by Christopher states that Gandalf also included wizards among the servants of the Dark Lord at Rivendell.
There was also a note in a margin regarding the Necromancer and whether he was a servant of the Dark Lord Sauron. Christopher states that he was thinking of Morgoth as the Dark Lord before he came up with the name Sauron. Eventually he eliminated the phrase "servant of".
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 4, 2007 10:13:42 GMT -6
Regarding Gandalf's finding Gollum:
Gandalf questioned Gollum on how he had found out Bilbo's name and how Gollum knew that he had his ring.
However, Christopher states that was odd for his father to write the passage that way because in The Hobbit, Gollum actually mumbles to himself
I think myself that Gandalf did not realize that Bilbo had told Gollum his name and I think that was why JRRT wrote the passage as if he did not know how Gollum knew the name because in Phase 2 Gandalf says:
------- In Phase 2 Bilbo now has trouble giving up the Ring:
As Gandalf is telling these things to Bingo, several comments are being made throughout the telling that Sam is working outside in the yard. -------- Christopher makes a note: There will be more about this comment in Phase 3 which I am now reading. That will be in the next post I make after this one.
Back to Phase 2:
Now there are two different story lines developed: the black emendation - corrections for any version of the tale the red emendation - revised version with Bilbo giving his party and including Sam in the story and going along with Bilbo.
Christopher says JRRT was still not sure about the new version and there was a possibility that he would go back to the old story line.
Now the four hobbits that leave Hobbiton are: Bingo Baggins, Frodo Took, Odo Bolger, and Sam Gamgee.
In their meeting with Gildor and the Elves, Gildor is much more sever regarding Bilbo's lateness on the road and the Black Riders:
------ In Phase 2, Farmer Maggot really hates the Bagginses. There are two versions: In one, Bingo was trespassing and one of Maggot's hounds attacked him, Bingo defended himself by dropping a large rock on the dog's head and killing it. The other version, Bilbo and Bingo were together and Bilbo killed the dog that way. Maggot threatened to kill any Baggins if they ever stepped onto his property again. ------ vocabulary:
Cracks of Earth became Cracks of Doom Middle World became Middle Earth ----------- Phase 3 is coming up next! Let me do a little reading and I will report back.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 5, 2007 11:53:54 GMT -6
I will TRY to do my Phase 3 reading while I'm in Texas with Desi and our Equestrian Drill Team--perhaps while we are driving down and back. I will report back next week with anything interesting in the development of LOTR. This competition is for the National Championship "Super Ride V" www.superride.us/ We leave tonight and won't be back until the wee hours of next Monday morning. We will perform our competition drill on Friday late afternoon in the mixed rider division, our pirate drill a little after noon-time on Saturday in the theme division, and then the competition drill again in the big open division Saturday evening.
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 5, 2007 12:37:19 GMT -6
Wow! Sounds like a great road trip. We will all be keeping our fingers crossed for you and Desi, hoping you bring back the spoils! Equestrian pirate drill? O, that should make the Navy happy, now they've got horseback pirates to chase as well!
Enjoy the trip, don't read too much LotR, we all need a break sometimes!
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 24, 2007 20:49:24 GMT -6
PHASE 3
I will list some of the interesting things that I have read below:
In the previous Phases, JRRT marked in the margins "Put in Foreward" on many of his passages such as hobbit architecture and other hobbit habits. This is how he put together his foreward entitled "Concerning Hobbits". Much of this info was in A Shortcut to Mushrooms. Adding the peculiarities of hobbits and how they lived was JRRT's way of eliminating a lot of the Hobbiton comedy from the chapters.
What was a narrator's tale of the talk in The Ivy Bush is now worked into the commentary of Gaffer Gamgee as the sole source of this information.
A reference to Bingo having once seen the Elf Towers himself is made.
The Elder Days were first called the Earliest Days in this Phaise.
The name Bingo is finally given up and switched to FRODO.
The Númenor story begins with the reference of Valandil who is the King of the Island. Then it is changed to Valandil, King of Númenor, who came back over the Sea from Westernesse into Middle-earth in those days. Then his name is changed to Elendil.
The comment that Gollum's Grandmother ruled all the family and she was the one who turned him out of her hole.
The idea that Gandalf dare not take the Ring is not a Peter Jackson invention, but it now seems to be official JRRT word:
***** Bree--uncertainty whether this town would be inhabited by hobbits, men, or both. Also Butterbur was tossed around as being a hobbit rather than a man.
Christopher says the idea of the Rangers was just something JRRT was concidering in the drafts. Rangers are mysterious wanderers and the Men of Bree respect them (and somewhat fear them). It was said they were the last remnant of the kingly people from beyond the Seas. JRRT considered making Trotter a ranger, but not really, but he behaved like one. The idea that the Rangers were the last descendants of the Númenórean exiles and that placing Trotter into that distinction was not taken up easily nor at this time.
There became two versions again: The red version tells the tale from Gandalf's viewpoint about his and Odo's movements in Bree. Gandalf tells Butterbur to tell the Black Riders that Gandalf has been and gone. He left east with a hobbit named Baggins. Gandalf also tells Bob to say EAST as well even though they took a different lane.
Harry the Gatekeeper also tells the Black Riders that come to talk to him that there was a hobbit riding behind an old man on a white horse and that they went to The Pony. One Black Rider asked Harry if he knew the names and Harry said Gandalf was the old man and the Rider hissed then they rode off. Gandalf is setting the stage as a decoy to lead the Riders away from Frodo and his group by trying to get the riders to follow him instead.
In the blue version there is no visit of Gandalf and Odo to The Prancing Pony.
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 25, 2007 9:58:33 GMT -6
A point of clarification here -- in LotR, Gandalf is afraid of being legally given the One Ring, but he is not afraid to handle it. Bilbo drops an envelope on the floor, an envelope that contains the Ring, and Gandalf picks it up and put it on the mantle (p. 43, hb version FotR). Later, in chapter 2, pp 58 and 59, Frodo actually "gives" the Ring to Gandalf. Gandalf handles the Ring (now without any envelope), and then tosses it into fire. After a while Gandalf removes the Ring from the fire and at once picks it up again with his bare hand. Frodo is surprised that the Ring does not burn Gandalf, and after holding it a while, the Wizard then gives it back to Frodo.
So, apparently Gandalf does not fear, in the book, to touch the Ring, he simply fears to be legally given possession of the Ring, to be assigned ownership/ responsibility for the thing.
In the movie, Jackson tries to heighten the power of the Ring by making it perilous for Gandalf to even touch the thing, and so he never does this in this film version.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 25, 2007 11:36:09 GMT -6
Ah! I see what you mean! I guess I misunderstood about touching The Ring vs. being officially given it.
I am surprised that if The Ring had so much power that just touching it would begin to work its magic of enticement/desire immediately on the one who touched it. After all, just seeing the Ring, took hold of Smeagol immediately encouraging him to kill Deagol. Smeagol was not officially given The Ring--he killed and stole it. So I am surprised that Gandalf's touching it freely didn't have some gripping effect on him.
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 25, 2007 15:05:55 GMT -6
Good point about Smeagol "falling" with just a glimpse of the Ring!
I wonder if this going to be another of those cases where JRRT never quite thought all the way through a given problem? There seems to be no plain rule concerning the Ring's power over the various individuals who come in contact, or merely come into proximity with it.
How much "gripping power" does the One Ring have? For some, it seems, like Smeagol, just a glimpse of the thing sets a mad desire in his heart; for Gandalf, apparently, even direct skin to Ring contact does not do much to him; for Bombadil, the Ring has no power at all, and he freely touches it, even puts it on with no ill effects; Galadriel seems to have long thought about the One Ring, desires it in that much at least -- would she have been unable to touch it without becoming ensnared? Sam touches the thing, even wears it, but can still, with some reluctance give it up again to Frodo. I get the feeling that if Boromir ever touched it he would not be able to let it go again, like Smeagol, just the one sight of the Ring at Elrond's Council seems to have been enough to encompass his fall.
So, there appears to be no hard and fast rule about who can touch the Ring, and then who cannot.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 25, 2007 19:46:01 GMT -6
Another who was not offered The Ring was Isildur--he took it right off the hand of Sauron! He did not wish to destroy it once he had it in his possession and he used it to hide and escape from the Orcs but it betrayed him. The Ring betrayed Gollum, too, but because he was hiding in the roots of the mountain, he was able to keep it much longer.
Frodo offered the Ring to Galadriel as well. Since she desired it herself, she had best not touch it! Even if it had not been offered to her and she came upon it laying on the ground without anyone around, I think she would have been ensnared by it the moment she touched it.
Gandalf was very powerful and I think that may have been the reason he could touch it without The Ring ensnaring him. The current owner, Frodo, still owned it and because of that it HAD to be offered by Frodo and be willing to give it up. Gandalf was too powerful to be overcome with the desire to kill Frodo for The Ring.
The Ring may not have wanted to go to Gandalf because its desire was to return to Sauron who forged it and put much of himself in it. Gandalf would have been too strong and would have tried and may even have succeded in suplanting Sauron if there had been a face off. Therefore, The Ring may have withheld its ensnaring power when it sensed the strength in Gandalf.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 25, 2007 20:01:27 GMT -6
In Return of the Shadow, JRRT has been working through the affects The One Ring has on its bearer.
From the chapter entitled Queries and Alternations:
According to this query, hobbits seemed less overwhelmed and affected by The Ring whereas an Elf (Galadriel for instance) would have become mighty and dark, and Gandalf would have become three times stronger and that was why he did not wish it.
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Post by Stormrider on Jun 25, 2007 20:22:19 GMT -6
In the Ancient History chapter of The Return of the Shadow, a passage regarding who made the rings was told by Gandalf as follows: This gives more depth to who and how certain peoples were affected.
Although this states that Sauron created MANY rings and I believe that was changed later on. (See The One Ring thread in the Things of Middle earth forum--I'm reading The Sil chapter regarding The Rings of Power and will make some comments there).
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 26, 2007 9:23:54 GMT -6
What a rich diversity of evidence you have presented, Stormrider! Wunnerful! This "good stuff" will keep me busy for some time, thanks!
Concerning, for right now, just the matter of the rings, it is obvious from your quotes that JRRT was working slowly through several different schemes that finally resolved themselves in the 1954 version LotR.
RE: "In ancient days the Necromancer, the Dark Lord Sauron, made many (my bold) magic rings of various properties that gave various powers to their possessors. He dealt them out lavishly and sowed them abroad to ensnare all peoples, but specially Elves and Men."
This is quite different from the other ring lore accounts, in that it seems to make Sauron the major, if not only source of the many rings of power!
RE: "Another who was not offered The Ring was Isildur--he took it right off the hand of Sauron!"
Yeah, poor Isildur, it seems as though he never really had much of a chance with the Ring, maybe Men were more susceptible to the attractions of power than most Elves might have been, and, as you point out, even less able to refuse the thing than the hobbits.
RE: "Gandalf was very powerful and I think that may have been the reason he could touch it without The Ring ensnaring him."
It recurs to me that at this time Gandalf had already been wearing the Red Elven ring Narya for quite some time -- it may have strengthened his basic good character, and acted as a shield between him and the One Ring? Poor Saruman, he seems to have been especially open to the power/ corruption of the One, so that mere fantasies about possessing the thing were enough to overthrow whatever elements of good he once possessed. Add to that his foolishness in using the palantir, and his "capture" by the Eye through that connection, and he had little chance...
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 5, 2007 6:53:18 GMT -6
Moving back up the column of posts here, I find myself really curious about Old Farmer Maggot.
RE: Stormrider, reply 16: "In Phase 2, Farmer Maggot really hates the Bagginses. There are two versions: In one, Bingo was trespassing and one of Maggot's hounds attacked him, Bingo defended himself by dropping a large rock on the dog's head and killing it. The other version, Bilbo and Bingo were together and Bilbo killed the dog that way. Maggot threatened to kill any Baggins if they ever stepped onto his property again"
LOL! This is a much more drastic Maggot, and dog-killing Bagginses seems likewise to be quite a step away from the LotR characters!
I was just wondering, Stormrider, beyond these phase two versions, does Tolkien have a phase three Maggot showing a gradual transition away from the "hate and violence" relationship, something moving closer towards the final LotR published version?
Also, one more Maggot question: I just sort of remember from discussions a year or two back, that at one time Farmer Maggot was going to be some sort of blood relation to Tom Bombadil. Is there much data in Return of the Shadow detailing that relationship?
I still cannot locate my copy of RotS, but I'll see if the local library has a copy so you don't get stuck with ALL the research!
THANKS!!!
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 5, 2007 8:27:57 GMT -6
RE: Stormrider post # 19: Third Phase -- "The comment that Gollum's Grandmother ruled all the family and she was the one who turned him out of her hole."
Ah! Here is another isolated item about which I've been trying to gather data for a long time! In LotR Tolkien, through Gandalf introduces us to a wrinkle in the behaviour/ social organization of the hobbits. A "Stoorish" band of these halflings once lived along the Great River, Smeagol/ Gollum belonged to this tribe. "There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had." (FotR, hb version, p. 62; my emphasis)
A few pages later, JRRT re-inforces this by adding: "Gollum is a liar, and you have to sift his words. For instance, he called the Ring his 'birthday present', and he stuck to that. He said it came from his grandmother, who had lots of beautiful things of that kind. A ridiculous story. I have no doubt that Smeagol's grandmother was a matriarch, a great person in her way, but to talk of her possessing many Elven-rings was absurd..." (FotR, p. 66; emphasis mine)
Here, the phase 3 version you report, Stormrider, seems fully consistent with both these FotR statements, Smeagol's grandmother actually ruled the tribe, and handed down its judgments, as she was the one with the power and authority to pass the sentence of expulsion on a Ring-corrupted Gollum: "The Ring had given him power according to his stature. ... he became very unpopular and was shunned (when visible) by all his relations. ... So they called him Gollum, and cursed him, and told him to go far away; and his grandmother, desiring peace, expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole." (FotR, p. 63; emphasis mine)
This data from FotR and RotS seems to indicate that all the way through 1956, JRRT envisioned the Stoor band of Smeagol's birth as being a real, functioning matriarchy, a social system in which a female is the actual chief, or head-person of the group. This situation is something found in many anthropological essays detailing the structures of tribal groups around the world and throughout the past and present. In our current "globalism," really starting since about 1500 AD, the western European systems of government have largely been patriarchal (harking back even to ancient Hebrew times of Abraham!) and wherever the western system of "civilization" has been introduced, the original matriarchies have gradually been replaced by patriarchal authority. Hence, we do tend to see matriarchies as being a predominantly ancient form of rule, and I think JRRT may originally have been trying to show us that Gollum and his tribe were a sort of "time-lost" entity, so far back in Middle-earth's past that they still had a matriarchy. That worked well for me, giving a feeling of "ancientness" to Smeagol's roots.
So what happened? By late 1958, early 1959, JRRT got all reactive about this matriarchy. For some reason he now decided that hobbits, at any time, should never be, or have been ruled by a "true" matriarch.
"I venture to add a further note on this point, lest, in considering the text in the light of my reply, you should feel inclined to enquire further about Smeagol's 'grandmother', who Gandalf represents as a ruler (p. 62) ... and even calls a 'matriarch'. (p. 66)
"As far as I know Hobbits were universally monogamous ... and I should say that their family arrangements were 'patrilinear' rather than patriarchal. ... In the case of large powerful families (such as the Tooks) ... the head was properly the eldest male of what was considered the most direct line of descent. ... If the master died first, his place was taken by his wife, and this included (if he had that position) the titular headship of a large family or clan. This title thus did not descend to the son, or other heir, while she lived, unless voluntarily resigned. It could, therefore, happen in various circumstances that a long-lived woman of forceful character remained 'head of the family', until she had full-grown grandchildren." (Humphrey Carpenter, editor Letters, #214, pp 293 - 294.)
LOL! My take on this matter is that JRRT first introduced us to Gollum in The Hobbit way back in the 1928 to 1937 period, and there mentioned that Gollum had a grandmother whom he taught "to suck -- 'Eggses!' " (Hobbit, "Riddles in the Dark," p. 123 annotated version) Apparently, at this early time, JRRT had no clear idea of who or what Gollum might be. From my reading of The Hobbit account, Gollum, in his cavern, used to have friends, had a grandmother, and they all had lived in the underworld a long, long time. I do not think they were originally meant to be Hobbits at all, but later, sometime in the 1940s, JRRT decided to make Gollum a Hobbit, and now JRRT was stuck with explaing this "grandmother." Who was she? Where did she live, and what powers did she have? Taking a clue from his own studies in anthropology, JRRT found that he could most easily explain the grandmother by giving her a matriarchal authority over a tribe of "primitive" hobbits-- and this is the version we get in LotR.
Later, around 1959, JRRT thought this problem through once more and seemingly decided that the background history he preferred for the hobbits should feature primarily patrilineal descent, and predominantly a patriarchal system of government. But by this time, Gandalf's statements had already established Gollum's grandmother as a matriarch. To explain this all away, JRRT hit upon the compromise solution that he stated in Letter # 214 -- she was a tribal leader, BUT, the tribal system was still male dominated!
LOL, I think I like the original version better, it gives a flavour of ancientness to Smeagol's origin if I read it as having been a genuine matriarchy.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 8, 2007 6:02:47 GMT -6
Regarding Farmer Maggot: Yes! Originally JRRT was contemplating making him like Tom Bombadil. I do remember reading that! I will see if I can find the passages in ROTS and quote them in this thread.
Farmer Maggot was not so bad in the first writing. Bingo was still not comfortable with him and put his ring on when he took the hobbit to his farm house. The second and third writings made Farmer Maggot very hateful toward Bagginses because JRRT was trying to figure something out in the relationships. I have to look for those quotes, too.
I will be back! I've just been so busy the past week and find that I've been stretched very thin, like butter scraped over bread...so I haven't been reading the book nor posting my notes here.
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