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Post by Stormrider on Jul 9, 2007 6:15:34 GMT -6
p. 117 in ROTS Houghton Mifflin, Christopher Tolkien found a brief outline regarding JRRT's first thought for the hobbits' journey and visit with Tom Bombadil:
After Tom Bombidil rescued the hobbits from Willow Man:
More notes here state that Tom B. is an aborigine and he knew the land before, men, hobbits, barrow-wights, and the necromancer and before the elves came to this part of the world.
Then notes of how Goldberry describes Tom: "master of water, wood and hill. The land does not belong to him they belong to themselves. He is not the possessor but the master, because he belongs to himself."
I also found a passage on p. 103 where Marmaduke (the first name for Meriadoc) describes Maggot:
Although there is no mention of Maggot knowing Bombadil in that quote, Maggot might have run into Tom B. on his trecks into the Old Forest.
p. 94, as the hobbits approach Maggots, in the first phase:
Maggot does not seem frothed up at the Bagginses at this first writing and Bingo even refers to him as GOOD Farmer Maggot.
But Maggot speculates on Bingo's disappearance and why frightening black riders are asking about him p. 96: Bingo was originally named Bingo Bolger-Baggins, hence the reference to the two names in the quote.
I have to head to work now and I will get back with more info on the hatred that Maggot had toward the Bagginses later.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 10, 2007 6:30:57 GMT -6
The Second Phase regarding Farmer Maggot pp. 287-288 Christopher's comments state this is marked as a "variant" which is quite different than the form that appears in FOTR:
He goes on to say that they knew of the Ring but kept the knowledge to themselves (as in FOTR). So this was why Bingo was alarmed and JRRT did not want to cut out the part where Bingo put the Ring on at Maggot's house. Here is Bingo's explanation of why he doesn't like Maggot and vice versa:
After Maggot comes up to the hobbits and the dogs come snarling and growling and back the hobbits up against the wall, even one dog sniffs at the invisible Bingo, here a comment about Frodo looking for Bingo:
After being welcomed into the Maggot farmhouse, Maggot states that Frodo and Odo are welcome and have Maggot's leave to walk on his land as long as they do no damage. Then he qualifies it by saying:
Then he mentions the Black Rider looking for Baggins. Then similiar comments about Bingo Baggins getting into some trouble and that he probably lost or wasted all of the money he got from old Bilbo Baggins.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 10, 2007 19:18:44 GMT -6
Jackpot! Wow, this is what I was hoping for, excellent work, Stormrider. Lots to investigate here -- I'll start digesting at once! Again, the finished product of LotR seems so smoothly drawn that it is hard to believe there was ever a time when JRRT was uncertain as to how the characters should be drawn, and where the story line was headed...
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 13, 2007 16:32:50 GMT -6
To Weathertop and Rivendell
Leaving Bree: The pony is now said to belong to Bill Ferney and is described as bony, underfed, and rather dispirited.
Trotter still has the apples and he is the one who hits Ferney on the nose with one.
A comment from Trotter:
There are several chronologies of the timelines posted for Gandalf (Odo)’s movements and the Hobbits’ movements. I’m not going to go into those other than to say that JRRT was playing around with different scenarios of who was where when and the time it took to get here and there. He took it seriously on making travel and timing work out as in real life.
The Hobbits’ find a note from Gandalf that fluttered from a cairn at the foot of the hills of Weathertop:
Then Merry exclaims that the Riders must have gotten him. Frodo blames it on their missing Gandalf and that it was the result of his pretending to be “Baggins”
I WANT to know what happened to Odo! This would have been an interesting bit in the story. I wonder why JRRT cut out everything to do with Odo and his traveling with Gandalf as “Baggins” I guess I have to wait until I get further in my reading.
After Trotter tells a story of the Elf-kingdoms, Merry asks Trotter to tell the tale of Gilgalad. Trotter says that the possessor of the Ring could tell him about Gilgalad and Merry and Folco look at Frodo.
Christopher says “From this point the manuscript is defective, two sheets being missing; but a rejected page carries the story a little further before tailing off:” Frodo then says:
Trotter says he will not tell the tale now with the servants of the Enemy at hand and they would hear it in the house of Elrond.
Christopher states then that the story of Beren and Lúthien was missing at this point. The rest of the Knife in the Dark chapter is as in FOTR but changes Folco to Pippin; there were three Riders instead of five in the attack on the dell, and Frodo cries out “Elbereth! Elbereth!” when he threw himself to the ground.
Next I will continue with the rest of the journey from Weathertop to Rivendell with the section on the Flight to the Ford.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 15, 2007 10:00:52 GMT -6
Thank You so very much, Stormrider!
lol, I'm still "digesting" but I'll have some comments/ questions to add here soon.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 16, 2007 2:37:50 GMT -6
RE Stormrider's reply # 30
I find the shift in Maggot's character very curious, from "good farmer" to Baggins hater, then a final transition that brings us down to the LotR published version where Maggot is a reasonably gruff old farmer just trying to protect his produce. I get the feeling that JRRT was really uncertain as to where the tale was headed here, and I'm glad he finally abandonned version 2 (Maggot as Baggins-hater) as it seems overly mellodramatic to have Bingo/ Frodo falling into such desperate scrapes with fellow hobbits before he even leaves the Shire.
It seems also strange to me the the One Ring is treated so lightly in this early, trial episode of version 2. Sure, if we are faced with the fierce, Baggins-hating Maggot it might make sense for Bingo/ Frodo to slip on the Ring to escape the mad farmer and his vicious dogs -- but that seems to my mind to trivialize the whole concept of the awesome power of the Ring. I far prefer the finished version where the Ring is not used until the more plausible scene in Bombadil's house.
Of course, being more realistic in his use of the Ring (no frivolous uses of it while still in the Shire), meant that the entire episode of the "dog- slaying" had no purpose in the narrative, and I'll bet JRRT was loathe to cut that story line, but I'm glad he did. It leaves us with a more "noble" Bingo/ Frodo if he does not have such an incident in his past. LOL, I just can't see the Ring Bearer as a Dog Killer...
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 16, 2007 6:13:02 GMT -6
I agree. I like the FOTR version the best. I was very surprised with the story of Frodo killing the dog and Maggot hating the Bagginses so violently and all because JRRT wanted Frodo to put on the Ring despite the warnings not to use it! (which was cut out anyway in the end)
In FOTR although Frodo stole mushrooms as a youngster and Maggot beat him a bit and told his dogs they could eat him if they ever saw him on his land again, Maggot is not violently angry. But when Frodo, Pippin, and Sam arrive on his farm, he only laughs about Frodo having been a mushroom thief.
Then when Maggot tells about the Black Rider in FOTR, he blames Frodo's being in trouble due to moving to Hobbiton where the folk are queer and moving in with Bilbo would be trouble. Then he states that he is glad Frodo is moving back to Buckland.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 18, 2007 16:23:49 GMT -6
Weatherop to Rivendell-Part 2
Gandalf’s message about Odo vanishing and his capture was changed in pencil to read:
Thank goodness, Gandalf will find Odo and help him! I hope!
Packets of cram and firewood are found by Sam. They assume it was left by Gandalf but now they assume it was left because he did not need Odo’s share anymore so left it for them incase theirs supply was running low.
The attack on Weathertop is very close to FOTR. After the attack, Trotter talks to Sam on the side and says:
Didn’t Gandalf find Odo and rescue him?! Oh no! What did the Black Riders do to Odo?
The Bruinen is called “the Riven River” and later “the Rivendell River” and they are following Gandalf’s last message to make for the Rivendell Ford.
When they encounter the Stone Trolls there is not yet any Troll Song sung by Sam.
Glorfindel arrives and calls Trotter Du-finnion instead of Padathir I looked in my Sindarin and Quenya dictionaries but only found a translation for “dû” meaning nightfall, late evening, night, darkness in Sindarin. However, the word Glorfindel used does not have the accent over the u. I would like to know what those words mean!
In the first passage: Glorfindel brings news that Gandalf has arrived in Rivendell and that there was a hobbit named Odo with him. However, Glorfindel had not heard that he had been lost. The elves of Rivendell and Gandalf thought Trotter and Company may have gone through the Dimrildale to avoid the peril of the Road (that was the route Gandalf had come toward Rivendell) and that some (elves) have gone that way to look for them. Then he urges them to go with all speed and that there are horsemen searching for their trail all along the Road in the lands on both sides of it.
In the second passage: Glorfindel brings the news of Gandalf and a hobbit with him but he does not say that he did not hear that Odo had been lost. Glorfindel says that the horsemen are searching back westward for their trail along the Road and when they find the place they came down from the hills, they will ride after them like the wind. He also says there are others who might be in front of them of on either side and if they don’t go with all speed and good luck, the Ford will be guarded against them by the enemy.
Frodo is growing faint and Sam objects to Glorfindel’s urging as in FOTR and the rest is almost the same as in FOTR except only 3 Riders came out of the trees behind the fugitives and “out from the trees and rocks away on the left other Riders came flying. Three rode towards Frodo; three galloped madly towards the Ford to cut off his escape.” And at the very end, “Three of the Riders turned and rode wildly away to the left down the bank of the River; the others, borne by their terrified and plunging horses, were driven into the flood and carried away.” Also two Riders escaped the flood. This was changed before going to the next chapter to no Riders escaped.
The rest of the chapter leading into Frodo’s awakening after Elrond treated him is very close to FOTR except Gandalf mentions that he “was caught in Fangorn and spent many weary days as a prisoner of the Giant Treebeard. It was a desperately anxious time, for I was hurrying back to the Shire to help you. I had just learned that the horsemen had been sent out.”
The morgul-knife is still the knife of the Necromancer and Gandalf says: “You would have become a wraith, and under the dominion of the Dark Lord. But you would have had no ring of your own, as the Nine have; for you Ring is the Ruling Ring, and the Necromancer would have taken that, and would have tormented you for trying to keep it – if any torment greater than being robbed of it was possible.”
Frodo asks Gandalf how he was able to find Odo again. Gandalf looked [oddly >] quickly at Frodo, but he had shut his eyes then assures Frodo that Odo is safe and that he would see him soon and hear his account along with the feasting an merrymaking to celebrate the victory at the Ford and they all would be in places of honour.
Christopher says:
Although I think FOTR is excellent without the Odo episode, I still would have liked to know what JRRT was going to have happen. However, there was so much happening in the story that adding another hobbit and his kidnapping by Black Riders would have been too much. I can't imagine that the Black Riders would have allowed him to live and that would have just been too sad to have in the story at this point.
Later at the feast, there is no mention of Arwen yet.
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 23, 2007 3:08:17 GMT -6
Ah, Stormrider, this sidelight tale of Odo (does he later become LotR's Fatty Bolger?) does sound very interesting. If I've got this right, he is off with Gandalf as a sort of hobbit-bait to lead at least some of the Nazgul away from Frodo Baggins (or is he still Bingo at this point?). Of course this would negate the whole episode in FotR of Gandalf's capture by Saruman, making the grey wizard unavailable for helping the hobbits get to Rivendell, a task Trotter, later Aragorn performs. I like the FotR version because it allows JRRT to develope Aragorn as a separate character, one who gets to interact closely with the hobbits to become a separate focal point in the narrative. Any hit in this version that JRRT is considering yet switching Trotter from hobbit to Man?
RE Stormrider: "Although I think FOTR is excellent without the Odo episode, I still would have liked to know what JRRT was going to have happen. However, there was so much happening in the story that adding another hobbit and his kidnapping by Black Riders would have been too much. I can't imagine that the Black Riders would have allowed him to live and that would have just been too sad to have in the story at this point."
Yes, it sounds like this whole episode would become very hard to manage, and the death of this Odo before the hobbits even get to Rivendell would have changed the whole feeling of the book, making it very dark indeed.
Is there a completed version of Odo's tale available, just for the fun of following the story to its conclusion, or did JRRT abandon the whole thing in its unfinished state?
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 23, 2007 6:04:17 GMT -6
Yes, I believe Odo did end up being Fatty Bolger. There are so many name-switchings and blending of character personalities in all these chapters that my head is spinning. I will look to see if I can find an actual statement to that fact.
And regarding Odo as bate: Christopher said the following and the bold says it all:
There is a lot more about Trotter/Aragorn and I just haven't had time to sit down and add everything to this thread. But yes, Aragorn is finally made a man and seems to keep the name of Trotter for a long time as well as many other names besides--JRRT's method of name-decisions. I am into reading The Treason of Isengard now and it is very interesting, but so far in my readings, JRRT has not come up with the name "Strider". I do plan to mention this somewhere along the line of my postings!
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 24, 2007 15:58:15 GMT -6
In the first draft, Fredegar (Fatty) Bolger wasn’t written in to see them off at the entrance to the tunnel under the Hedge. His question about how they are going to get through it was given to Odo. This is in the ROTS chapter called “The Old Forest and the Withywindle” p. 112
Then later in the “Delays are Dangerous” chapter p. 273, Sam Gamgee was to replace Odo. CT says: “But Odo could not be got rid of so easily.” and continues to say:
In the “Delays are Dangerous” chapter p. 275, the third cart of Bingo’s belongings – the ones that are more valuable went off as in FOTR on the morning of the 23rd. At first Odo Bolger was in charge of that job, but he was changed to Merry Brandybuck. In FOTR Merry was accompanied by Fredegar Bolger, and CT says in the draft there is a note in the margin there stating “Merry and Odo?”
In “Again from Buckland to the Withywindle” chapter p. 299, JRRT established that Odo went on ahead with Merry. Frodo Took is now a character similar to Odo and is one of the companions of Bingo (along with Sam) who leave Hobbiton together. CT says that “Odo is now rather silent (and greedy).” JRRT wrote a note here: “Christopher wants Odo kept.” But CT does not remember much of this conversation but believes that he wanted him kept as a member of the party that walked from Hobbiton. But JRRT was blending Odo’s characteristics with Frodo Took and CT thinks JRRT was planning to cut Odo out of the expedition after the Hobbits left Crickhollow. CT says this is guesswork on his part and that his objection saved Odo temporarily and Odo was going to go with the others into the Old Forest.
Then there is a comment that Merry and Olo (yes an “l” instead of a “d”) Bolger had just reached Crickhollow the day before. And Merry and Olo prepared supper in the kitchen. CT states that Olo here plays the part of Fatty (Fredegar) Bolger as in FOTR but after this comment disappears from the text and never appears again.
In the same chapter “Again from Buckland…” on p. 301, Odo is the one filled with horror at Bingo’s suggestion that they go through the Old Forest. Odo is the one who objects as Fatty Bolger does in FOTR (and eventually stays behind). CT states there are pencillings with the comment “Odo stays behind” at this point in the manuscript.
And finally…in “The Journey to Bree” chapter p. 326, QUOTE: “Odo is at Crickhollow, opens the door when they arrive, and cooks the supper with Merry, in fact until the end of the chapter, he has become Fredegar (Fatty) Bolger.”
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Post by Andorinha on Jul 29, 2007 5:17:11 GMT -6
Wow, this cast of characters does become quite complex, Olos and Odos to boot!
Too bad JRRT never finished a single version of the Gandalf and Odo story, it might not have worked as well as the final LotR version, but would be fun to have as a completed tale anyway -- did Odo die at the hands of the Nazgul, or would Gandalf free him somehow?! LOL!
From the Letters, JRRT seems to have completed (at least one version or another) almost all the material through Rivendell by 1940, and then had a long break as he reworked the stuff. This gives me a different feel for the rhythm at which he worked. I thought he did a long, slow grind for years and years, but it seems he managed to turn out hundreds of pages and about a dozen chapters in just a year or two. When you realize that the final version will not be published until 1954/ 55, it sort of conceals his ability to crank out the pages when he was in good form.
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Post by Stormrider on Jul 29, 2007 6:03:28 GMT -6
I know I have a lot of catching up to do with ROTS but I am on the computer all day at work and then I am trying to create webpages for our drill team and artwork for the t-shirts from our store at home, so I have been behind in posting here because of that. (Oh! and now I have my grubby paws on the last Harry Potter book, too!)
So I've been reading The Treason of Isengard now and I am up to the Treebeard and Riders of Rohan segments and those were written in 1941-1942. I was having the same thoughts about how much JRRT had written in the early years and wondered why he had taken so long to get the books published. I imagine the answers will come up as I continue in my reading of the rest of the books. Perhaps he was grooming his Silmarillion further and tying everything up with LOTR before he published.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 8, 2007 16:12:07 GMT -6
Ok then...
I have the web pages for our drill team built and sent off with everything the guy needs who is hosting it for us--now I have to wait for him to load everything so it can go live! I will post a link to it once it is ready.
I have also finished reading the last Harry Potter book. Now I am ready to resume my postings on ROTS.
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In August of 1939, CT found some papers outlining some of his father’s ideas for the story after the Rivendell stay. There was an idea that a Dragon would come to the Shire which would show that hobbits are made of ‘sterner stuff’. CT mantions Frodo (Bingo) would come near the end of his money—now it was dragon gold. He is lured?
This confuses me, while CT says it was for the story after Rivendell, it sounds to me like what was mentioned in the earlier story on how Frodo (Bingo/Bilbo) lost their money. Or is this a hint of the Shire story AFTER the Ring is destroyed?
Also in the notes is a page mentioning an ‘Island in the sea—take Frodo there in end, Radagast?, Battle ragin for off between armies of Elves and Men vs Lord, Adventures..Stone Men’ CT assumes that Elrond tells Bilbo of the island and the raging battle belongs to the end of the story when the Ring goes into the Crack of Doom.
The reference to Stone Men was just going to be an adventure and CT says the idea of Gondor (Stone-land) grew from this note. Aragorn still called Trotter had nothing to do with it and was still a hobbit with wanderlust.
CT found a page of penciled notes with no date given although CT thinks it was around 1939. This page is titled “City of Stone and civilized men” and is followed by an outline which I have abbreviated in some places:
CT comments that he finds it remarkable when he did not see any “suggestion of the vast structure that was still to be built—that the corruption of the Shire, and the crucial presence of Gollum on the Fiery Mtn, were very early elements in the whole.”
I think that once JRRT established the Dark Lord was seeking his Ring to Rule them all, there had to be some way to destroy it. It makes sense to me for JRRT to have thought of an ending or endings. I think JRRT was still developing his thoughts on how much hold The Ring would have on Bingo/Frodo (Bilbo) as well as Gollum. Although this is the first mention of Frodo not being able to destroy it himself and Gollum falling into the Crack with it, I think JRRT was already thinking of the tie between the two ring bearers and tying them together (and The Hobbit and LOTR) for the ending.
I was more surprised that he thought as far ahead as the corruption of the Shire more so than the end of the Dark Lord and his Ring.
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Post by Vanye on Aug 9, 2007 12:21:57 GMT -6
Gosh, Storm I'm only on the 4th HP book! I'll be reading till Halloween (how apropriate!). I only started just before the 5th movie came out. How long did it take you to read the whole series? Well anyway, I'll be looking forward to seeing that new web site! Vanye
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