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Post by Stormrider on Aug 9, 2007 16:37:30 GMT -6
Vanye: Heck no! I haven't read the other HOME books! I skim them sometimes if I'm looking for information I did read some bits and pieces of Lost Tales I and II but not all of them.
ROTS is the first one I've read thoroughly! I'm reading Treason of Isengard now but I still want to post the rest of the interesting stuff I discovered in ROTS before I open a new thread for Treason.
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Post by Vanye on Aug 10, 2007 14:25:23 GMT -6
So far I have read The Sil, UT & both Lost Tales. Have poked around a little in People of Middle-earth. In my previous message I was referring to The Harry Potter series. Guess I'll get back to Tolkien when I've finished w/HP! Just like in LotR the HP movies left out a lot of stuff; enough to make the movies at least twice as long! Have you visited the Library Thing website yet? They have groups formed of people w/similar reading tastes & the group I frequent is called The Green Dragon. Guess what sort of books they read? Any way check it out. Vanye
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 14, 2007 18:02:36 GMT -6
Oh...Harry Potter! Yes, I read those as they were published so it wasn't like I was cramming the whole series in at one straight shot! lol! But some of the books are pretty large although pretty easy reading.
----- Getting back to the ROTS notes: On the backside of the notes that I mentioned in my last post above, there is a passage of a conversation said by Bilbo to Bingo (Frodo pencilled in above) that takes place in the House of Elrond. Bilbo makes the comment that the ring is destroyed and he is feeling sleepy. He tells Bingo they must say goodbye and Rivendell is a good place to say it. He is leaving his book and he doesn’t think he will go to rest til he has written down Bingo’s tale, too. He mentions that Elrond will keep it and that even though they are small creatures the two of them played their part and they shared an odd fate. CT makes the comment that his father saw that Bilbo would die in Rivendell.
On another page dated August 1939, there are other notes about waiting until Spring or going at once from Rivendell, going south along the mountains and a snowstorm, an adventure with Giant Tree Beard in Forest, Mines of Moria are again deserted except for Goblins, Land of Ond and siege of the city, draw near to borders of Mordor, in the dark Gollum comes up. He feigns reform? Or tries to throttle Frodo? – but Gollum has now a magic ring given by Lord and is invisible. Frodo dare not use his own. Cavalcade of evil led by seven black riders, dark tower seen on the horizon, horrible feeling of an Eye searching for him, fiery mountain, eruption of fiery mountain causes destruction of the tower.
I don’t think Gollum would really be happy settling for any other ring than the Ruling Ring, but if Sauron gave him another one, Gollum would be in the process of turning into a wraith like the Black Riders. If we finally determined from our other discussions on other threads here, that Sauron was in possession of the nine black riders’ rings because he did not have his One Ring, then how would Sauron control Gollum if he had given him another of the lesser rings? I guess these might have been some of the problems with giving Gollum another lesser ring that JRRT discovered when he wrote that concept in his notes above and, therefore, abandoned this idea.
Then there are emended notes in ink changing the sequence to what was published and added the loss of Gandalf to the Mines of Moria section. There is a jotted note about Bingo (Frodo) being captured and questioned by the Lord but saved by Sam. The Land of Ond is the City of Stone that is besieged. CT says that these are snatches of the story line that his father “saw”
Gandalf had already mentioned in Rivendell that he was captured by the giant Tree Beard and held for many days. CT found some notes on the back of a series of entertainment notices held at Oxford. JRRT decorated it with some of his “ornamental script” and then wrote more about Treebeard on it. Here is what was written:
There is more on p. 384 of ROTS but I am not going to type all of it—but you get the idea. Further along in the notes written in Elvish tengwar (and translated – CT doesn’t say whether he translated it himself or whether it was translated after the Elvish script) there is a comment that Frodo was looking for his lost companions in the Forest of Neldoreth when he was found by Tree Beard who pretended to be friendly but was in league with the Enemy. This Giant was to be added into the story in place of any dragons.
Another interesting storyline was regarding Peregrin Boffin. Bilbo with his renown and his wealth (and generosity with his money) was pardoned for his oddities by most people. They were secretly proud of Bilbo and there was rumor that the Hill had many tunnels stuffed with treasure.
The young folk thought him peculiar but felt that he did no harm but Bilbo’s more important relatives were suspicious of his influence on their children and of their meeting Gandalf at Bilbo’s house. Peregrin was one of the youngsters who was influenced by Bilbo and Gandalf and began to talk about mountains and dwarves. Peregrin’s father, Paladin, became alarmed and forbade him to go there anymore.
Bilbo was very fond of Peregrin and was very sad. Peregrin ran away from home and was found “wandering around half-starved up on the moors of the Northfarthing.” When Peregrin came of age he disappeared and was never found even though they searched all over the Shire for him. However, Bilbo was probably more troubled by Peregrin’s disappearance than all the Boffins together. (Peregrin was later to become Trotter)
Then the notes go back to another of Bilbo’s favorites who was not kept away from him—Frodo Baggins, grandson of Mirabella, the third of the Old Took’s daughters, and son of Drogo (a second cousin of Bilbo’s). About the time Peregrin disappeared, Frodo who was then 12 years old was left an orphan but lived with his uncle Rory Brandybuck in Brandy Hall. So he didn’t have anxious parents to keep him away from Bilbo and the rest of the family was more lenient with him and who he visited.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 18, 2007 17:50:30 GMT -6
In the FIRST DRAFT of the House of Elrond chapter, Bilbo asks Peregrin (Trotter--or Ethelion as the Elves called him) to help him with his song in the Hall of Fire. The Elves still discuss which lines Peregrin put in and which ones are Bilbo’s lines. They state it is difficult to tell between two hobbits.
Then there is a note stating that Trotter should not be a hobbit but a Ranger, who are the remainder of Western Men—the last remnant of the kingly people from beyond the Seas. This was also previously mentioned in Queries and alterations.
Earendil is a mariner is not present at this time but there is a note written above that says “?messenger” which is a hint of it. Later on in the next book there is a large discussion about this and when I get that far in my posting, I will tell about it.
The Council was held in a high glade among the trees on the valley-side far above Elrond’s house with a falling stream next to it. 12 seats of carved stone were set in a circle and many other smaller seats of wood were set behind those.
Attending were: Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Elrond, Gandalf, Glorfindel, Gloin, Burin son of Balin, a strange elf who was a messenger of the king of the Wood-elves (not named), Trotter (Peregrin), Merry, Folco, and Odo, three attendants for Elrond, an Elf named Erestor, two other kinsmen of the children of Luthien, and Boromir.
JRRT does not go into much detail regarding the Council. He wrote:
Then there is a note that the council should be behind closed doors. Decide Ring must be destroyed.
CT found a rough draft of notes on the first ideas for the council: Ring Wraiths (no? new?) horses (in time?), Odo’s capturing explained, Ring offered to Elrond who refuses and states it is the fate of the hobbits to rid the world of it. Send Ring West or destroy it. Must take to fiery mtn--how? Bilbo?—no, doesn’t have strength for the Ring, Frodo volunteers, who will go with? Gandalf, Trotter, Sam, Odo, Folco, Merry, Glrofindel and Frar (written beneath Burin) son of Balin.
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Post by Andorinha on Aug 22, 2007 21:12:35 GMT -6
Thanks again, Stormrider! More data for the mental-digestive tract!
Vanye and Stormrider: RE Harry Potter -- I have not yet started the books, thinking about picking up #1 soon.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 23, 2007 6:16:48 GMT -6
As always, the books are better than the movies but it is still interesting to see how they do all the special effects in the movies. Harry Potter is an easy read and very well written. I have to give J.K.Rowling a lot of credit on how she tied everything up so neatly in the end.
Interesting to compare her to JRRT. He wrote and revised his masterpiece over several decades and went back and revised it as he moved forward. His was never published until he was satisfied with the whole story! He built his as he went and when new ideas came up, he changed some of the earlier parts.
While J.K. Rowling must have had a definate outline and storyline planned out since each book was published as she wrote it. Although I heard that she had a box full of notes that she wrote when she thought of something. But once you have a book published, you have to keep to the same ideas.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 28, 2007 17:37:11 GMT -6
More notes itemized:
Frodo was asked to give a complete account of his journey so far as best he could. Tom Bombadil interested Elrond and Gandalf the most.
Gandalf spoke a long time on the history of the Ring and why the Dark Lord desired it and those of the Elves and Dwarves. Without Ring he still does not possess all his power. He put into the Ring much of his own power, and without it is weaker than of old [and obliged to lean more on servants]. He is blind as far as the Elflords are concerned. He cannot make rings until he has regained the master ring. He wants revenge and has hatred toward the Elves and Men that (disputed him?)
Gandalf asks if Elrond knows if the three Elven rings still exist (at this point, I guess Gandalf does not own one himself) and if Gloin knows whether any of the seven dwarf rings remain.
Elrond states they still exist and fears if Dark Lord obtains his Ring that his shadow would stretch even to the Blessed Realm.
Gloin says that some of the seven remain and was not sure if he had the right to reveal this because Dain did not give him any orders regarding this topic. He says Thrain of old had one that descended from his sires but they did not know now where it was. They think it was taken from him before Gandalf found him in the dungeons long ago or it was lost in Moria. He says that Dain has one and that his fortune was founded on it and his age. (I guess he must have lived a longer time than most Dwarfs)
Gloin tells that they have received secret messages from Mordor demanding these rings or knowledge of their whereabouts. They must return them to the Master. They were threatened with war. The messages also ask about Bilbo and offered peace if the dwarfs would obtain Bilbo’s ring (willing or unwilling) and return it to the Dark Lord.
CT says his father made a note after what Gloin said: “No! This won’t do – otherwise the dwarves would have been more suspicious of Bilbo.”
Then the number of the Fellowship was changed so that it consisted of 5 Shire hobbits (Frodo, Sam, Merry, Folco, and Odo) and Trotter, Gandalf, Glorfindel, and a dwarf named Frar (changed to Burin).
In an outlined dated August 1939, Treebeard is not in the Forest of Neldoreth any more but in the Forest between the Great River and the South Mountains (these later became Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains) and Gandalf warns against him.
The ring of Thrain (father of Thorin Oakenshield) was taken from him after his capture and placement in the dungeons of the Necromancer. The Dwarves are offered three of their rings back if they can deliver the ring that Bilbo possessed to the Dark Lord.
A note in the margin states that the Council must be held behind closed doors and a new manuscript begins. This is the first more complete storyline of what was discussed in the Council and set down on paper. It is partially in ink and pencil and pretty rough but can be read (at least by CT!) throughout. There are a lot of alterations and rewritten passages.
Frodo and Bilbo arrived (and Sam uninvited was added). The Council was held in the Western Wing of the house on the porch that Frodo met his friends the day before. The strange elf clad in green and brown is a messenger from the King of the Wood-Elves in Eastern Mirkwood and is named Galdor.
The story of how Trotter tracked Gollum as he wandered south through Fangorn and the Dead Marshes and was caught and imprisoned by the Dark Lord. ‘ “Ever since I have worn shoes,” said Trotter with a shudder.’ Frodo guessed that he had been tortured and his feet hurt. (Note in margin with a ? that it would later be revealed that Trotter had wooden feet!) also it was Gandalf who rescued him. This is a change from the earlier notes that Gandalf was the one who found Gollum in Mirkwood.
Elrond is interested in the events of the Old Forest and the Barrow-wights whom he already knew of and are similar to the Riders. Elrond has never heard of Bombadil and asks Gandalf if he ever knew of him. Gandalf answers that he sought him out at once after he heard that the hobbits had gone into the Old Forest after Buckland. Gandalf states he is a “strange creature who follows his own counsels.”
The ring has no power over Bombadil and can not harm or serve him because he is his own master. He doesn’t have power over it either and cannot alter it and Gandalf thinks Bombadil only has power in his own land and that Gandalf doesn’t recall him ever stepping out of his land.
And more about Tom B in my next post.
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 29, 2007 21:24:35 GMT -6
Erestor (Elrond’s kin also half-elven) suggests giving the Ring to Tom B to keep there for ever. But Gandalf said Tom B would probably do it but that would postpone the day that the Dark Lord would eventually find it. Tom B even in his own land would not be able to stand against the Dark Lord with his Ring. Then Erestor suggests keeping it at Rivendell but Elrond says he does not have the might to stand against Sauron’s coming.
Erestor suggests sending The Ring West across the Sea but that would be a dangerous and perilous journey. Then he says that those in the Council had not power to destroy it either and sending it to the Fiery Mountain seems even more perilous.
Elrond then says that sending the Ring West across the Sea would be what Sauron would expect them to do and Sauron would destroy all the Elves and their way of escape back to The Havens beyond the Towers and the Shire.
The only clear choice is to go to the Fiery Mountain with it and do that as quickly as possible because to keep it in the world there would always be a chance Sauron would get it. The Ring works for Sauron and his power will continue to grow while it is still somewhere hidden. War will never stop and all Men will be turned to him.
Boromir says that the Men of Ond will never join Sauron. And he doesn’t understand why they Elves and their friends don’t use the Ring themselves to defeat Sauron.Elrond says that never is a long word even though they are valiant and faithful men they could not stand against Sauron for ever. Then they explain how the Ring belongs to Sauron and is filled with his spirit. If someone else used the Ring they would set themselves up in his place and although they started out good they would become evil (Sauron was not evil in the beginning).
Then more about the Three Elven Rings and Seven Dwarf Rings. The Dwarves don’t know where Thrain’s ring went (taken in the dungeon before Gandalf found him or lost in Moria). Also more about the deal that Sauron wanted to make with the Dwarves if they gave him info about Bilbo or got the Ring from him and returned it to Sauron.
Then it says the three Elven Rings were made by Sauron and can give no skill or knowledge that he did not already have. More notes in column indicating that the Elfrings should be made by themselves and the 7 and 9 were made by Sauron for dwarves and men who originally accepted them thinking they were elfrings. Also that Sauron’s was made in answer to the elfrings. CT says that this is the first time this idea emerged in his father’s notes but did not enter the story until much later. If Sauron’s Ring would be destroyed the three elf rings would lose their power but all that had been gained from the Rings would still remain.
But we talked about this on another thread in the Things of Middle Earth forum (I believe that is where we discussed it).
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Post by Stormrider on Aug 30, 2007 17:46:46 GMT -6
First draft of the Council, the Fellowship consisted of: Gandalf, Trotter, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Folco, Odo, Glorfindel, Burin son of Balin (9)
In a rejected draft of the text in my last post, it consisted of: Gandalf, Trotter, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Faramond (Previously Folco), Glorfindel (7) At note on the page suggests the Company consist only of hobbits with Gandalf.
In the replacement text, Gandalf suggests: himself, Trotter, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Faramond, Boromir (7)
-----
Then there is an outline of future events and these were found on the backside of a rejected Council of Elrond manuscript.
This is interesting! Frodo gets separated from the rest and Sam refuses to go with them. Although it didn’t turn out quite this way in the final story, it seems the separation of Frodo and Sam was in JRRT's plan from the earlier drafts.
Now Treebeard is friendly and is not just acting like he is and really in league with the enemy. I’m surprised that JRRT even thought that way at one point! I can't fathom Treebeard ever as an evil creature or one in kahoots with Sauron.
Boromir is the son of the King of Ond—so the story line of the Numenoreans and their dying out has not been designed yet. Of course, JRRT has still been deciding on what Trotter is and even though he may have decided he is human instead of hobbit, he is not the real king yet.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 7, 2007 20:46:52 GMT -6
Yep, I agree, having Treebeard as a clever turncoat Saruman ally just seems so WRONG in light of the final, published version!
Interesting that Elrond here seems never to have heard of Bombadil. In the final version the Elves know him as Iarwain Ben Adar, I think, but they never seem to have had much to do with him. Curious, I never thought of this before, but I would have expected the Elves to be close friends with Bombadil, staying at his house, learning Tree Lore from him etc. Hmmm....
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 9, 2007 8:13:41 GMT -6
Yes, Iarwain Ben Adar was the name that the Elves called Tom Bombadil. One of our good old forum members had taken that name as his--and wherever he is, we miss him--he had a great wit and insight into JRRT's works when he posted.
I can see what you mean about the Elves sharing and learning from Iarwain. I wonder if he would have learned from the Elves as well or whether he surpassed all knowledge and knew everything already!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 13, 2007 16:01:06 GMT -6
The Ring South South chapter:
The dates for the return of the Scouts who went out looking for the Black Riders or signs of what happened with them was in question with notes in the margin of the first copy. Nov. 7th?, Nov. 10-11, and a fortnight was changed to 3 weeks.
In first Ring Goes South manuscript, the Fellowship left Rivendell in mid November. In the Tale of Years in the Appendices of ROTK the Fellowship left on December 25th.
The passage were the travelers went on foot was re-written many times and CT says that his father originally pictured everyone mounted – Borormir on a great brown horse, Gandalf on a white horse, and seven ponies (five for hobbits and two pack ponies).
Then there were ponies for the hobbits, Gandalf on his horse, but Boromir went on foot as he had come (the men of his race did not ride horses)
The Red Horn Mountain was replaced over and over again—Bliscarn, Carnbeleg (or Ruddyhorn), then Taragaer. In the margin is written Caradras = Ruddihorn and Rhascaron. Taragaer seems to be the preferred name at this stage.
The Caron-dûn or Red Valley was changed many times to Carndoom, Carondûn, Doon-Caron but were struck out. In other places on this page Narodûm = Red Vale then corrected in red ink to Dimrill-dale: Nanduhiriath. Again replaced in red ink by Glassmere in Dimrilldale all to mean Red Valley.
The first name of the pass was Criscarn (Cris-caron as a rejected alternative) Dimrill-stair is written in red ink replacing Criscarn twice is Dimrill-stair (Elvish “Pendrethdulur” meaning “passage up or down a slope, stairway.”
The Silverlode is named The River Redway (Crandir in Elvish) and other names written and struck out Rathgarn, Rathcarn, Nenning. In a margin is Narosîr=Redway.
Fangorn Forest is said the be an evergreen forest.
The threat of snow has a note in the margin to “cut out the prophecy of snow—let it come suddenly.” But it was struck out.
Gandalf snaps at Trotter (also known as Peregrin here) who asks Gandalf what he thinks of their course now (they are stuck up in the mountains with the threat of snow) “Still we have to go on. It is no good whatever our trying to cross further south into the land of Rohan. The Horse-kings have long been in the service of Sauron.”
I was surprised to read this but somewhere in the back of my mind, it seems that I had heard something about this before. I can’t believe the Rohirrim would sell their horses to Sauron unless there was something really binding them to do it.
CT goes on to say that Rohan had other names first: Thanador, Ulthanador, Borthendor, Orothan[ador]. But after Rohan is written [=Rochan9dor)=horseland) (Quenya rokko, Noldorin roch, horse)
Oh! A note in the margin changes ”The Horse-kings have long been in the service of Sauron.” To “Rohan where the Horsekings or Horselords are. Who knows which side now the marshals of the Horse-lords serve?” By this I get the idea that Gandalf did not have much contact with the horse lords (and they may have been a decent sort of people as far as we know) so he was not sure if they had been influenced by Sauron or not.
There is an insert where the Mines of Moria are introduced and Gandalf describes them and the travelers would have voted for going via the high pass and its perils of cold and snow rather than that way but Gandalf says they will try to pass since he would not go through Moria either if he could help it. But the mention of Moria was postponed until after they are forced back from the pass by the snowstorm.
There are a lot of notes on changing the speakers of much of the dialog throughout the Ring Goes South manuscript and I am not going to go into that!
There is a passage about the Dwarves of Durin’s clan during the time the Elves lived in Hollin and how they lived in peace together. There is mention of Goblins with “Fierce Orcs” next to that who drove the Dwarves out after many wars. This is the first mention of the word “orc”.
I could see that JRRT had the main ideas of this chapter laid out but he changed the dialog back and forth between characters and who did what when.
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Post by Andorinha on Sept 15, 2007 7:14:09 GMT -6
RE: " The Horse-kings have long been in the service of Sauron.”
Now this is interesting, it seems Ole JRRT had his moments of "paranoia," first Treebeard (and Ents in general, I suppose) are lined up on the side of Evil, and next it looks like the Rohirrim might have been originally leaning that way as well... I'm glad in both cases that he switched them to the other side before publication!
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 19, 2007 16:36:55 GMT -6
My favorite people are the Rohirrim so to hear that they were in the service of Sauron was a very low blow for me! I just can't picture Treebeard as evil either.
CT ponders the question: What really is the relationship between Trotter = Peregrin Boffin and Strider = Aragorn?
CT states that
CT comments about Orcs
In the preliminary sketch for “The Mines of Moria”, Gandalf says ‘there are goblins—of very evil kind, larger than usual, real orcs.’ The word ‘orc” is only mentioned once in The Hobbit in the “Queer Lodgings” chapter. I scanned "Queer Lodgings" very quickly and didn't see the word 'orc' but a lot of 'goblins'. I'm going to sit down and look it over more carefully and see if I can find it. I'll get back later.
I always wondered about the change from Goblins to Orcs. While The Hobbit is more of a child’s tale, I guess the word ‘goblin’ was something children could relate to from Grimms Tales and other tales. The goblins in The Hobbit seem less evil and more easily escaped from. If they had been ‘orcs’ they would have pounced on the Dwarves and Bilbo and eaten them right away! So the explanation that goblins of ancient days were stronger and fell ties it up. Goblins from The Hobbit must have been getting soft and mushy without the Necromancer’s direct domination of them. Once Sauron gained more power, he was able to gather them up again, breed more, or whatever and turn them all back into the fell orcs.
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Post by Stormrider on Sept 20, 2007 6:15:44 GMT -6
I found the mention of the word 'orcs' in the Queer Lodgingschapter. It is at the very end of the chapter when Gandalf takes his leave of the Dwarves and Bilbo on the edge of Mirkwood. Gandalf is giving them his last words of advice and this is part of it:
Was the word 'orc' used in the very first publication of The Hobbit? Or did that word enter into the story after JRRT was working on LOTR and added it to tie them together? The version I looked this up in is from Ballantine Books , 51st printing Sept. 1974 and mentions the LOTR books in the front under Other Works by JRRT.
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