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Post by Stormrider on Feb 6, 2008 7:17:53 GMT -6
Chesterton is known especially for his Father Brown series, which I have seen reference to in Dean Koontz' From The Corner of His Eye story. That reference reminded me that I wanted to look into those Father Brown stories after visiting the Wade Center at Wheaton College. Chesterton has a display along with JRRT, C.S. Lewis and several other of Tolkien's Inkling friends. It looks like a trip to B&N is due and I have a gift card to burn up!
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Post by fimbrethil on Feb 6, 2008 21:01:51 GMT -6
Stormrider,
Thanks for starting this thread. I've been reading Chesterton lately, and I am intrigued by the Tolkien connection. I started on Chesterton because I knew that Lewis had been influenced by him, but I wasn't sure there was a real connection with Tolkien.
I read The Napoleon of Notting Hill, and one of the things that struck me was the emphasis on the "local" and the small. Chesterton makes the point that true loyalty is to a neighborhood, not a nation.
"Above all, he knew the supreme psychological fact about patriotism... the fact that the patriot never under any circumstances boasts of the largeness of his country, but always, and of necessity, boasts of the smallness of it."
It reminded me of the Shire - the hobbits do not fight for the good of Middle Earth. They fight for the Shire, or more specifically for Hobbiton or Buckland. Great deeds are done for very local reasons.
It doesn't prove that Chesterton influenced Tolkien, but it is a value that is deeply steeped in both.
I've read the Father Brown stories years ago, and need to re-read them.
Fimbrethil
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 7, 2008 7:14:18 GMT -6
That concept seems so quaint. I can see how JRRT would have taken that up in his tale.
Frodo and Sam set out to save the Shire and the rest of middle-earth was saved in the course of it. But the theme of even the smallest person can make a difference is also part of LOTR which fits into this theme, too.
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Post by fimbrethil on Feb 7, 2008 22:37:58 GMT -6
Yes, it is quaint, but very Tolkien. Small, local, neighborhood, are all highly valued by him. And also, evidently, by Chesterton. Of course, that doesn't prove that Chesterton influenced him in this. It just means that they were influenced by the same forces. Both were drawn to the Curdie stories of George MacDonald when they were young.
I've been reading Chesterton's "The Ballad of the White Horse." There is a battle scene which feels very Tolkienesque, and the speeches leading up to it could have been given by some LOTR people (though they wouldn't have said it in verse). But again, I think that similarity reflects common influences, rather than Tolkien borrowing from Chesteron.
Fimbrethil
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Post by fimbrethil on Feb 10, 2008 22:06:26 GMT -6
In Letter #80, Tolkien says:
Priscilla has been wading through The Ballad of the White Horse (by Chesterton) for the last many nights; and my efforts to texplain the obscurer pasts to her convinceme that it is not as good as I thought. The ending is absurd. The brilliant smash and glitter of the words and phrases (when they come off, and are not mere loud colours) cannot disguise the fact that G.K.C. knew nothing whatever about the "North", heathen or Christian.
"The Ballad of the White Horse", along with many Chesteron works, is available on Project Gutenberg, and I do recommend it, despite JRRT's critique. It does take some work (wading through), but it is worth it. Even though JRRT changed his mind, it is clear from his words above that at one point he thought it good. There is some powerful language, and a great battle scene.
My favorite moment: in the battle, one of the "good guys" is facing attack by an enemy with a bow and arrow. All he has is a sword. So in a moment of desperation he throws his sword at his enemy and strikes him dead. It is followed by this stanza:
And all at that marvel of the sword, Cast like a stone to slay, Cried out. Said Alfred: "Who would see Signs, must give all things. Verily Man shall not taste of victory Till he throws his sword away."
Good stuff! Fimbrethil
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 11, 2008 16:33:39 GMT -6
I do not know all that much about Chesterton, have read a few of his easier (novels) works and the BotWH, so I just got a used-book priced copy of his biography "The Outline of Sanity," but I got the feeling from Letter 80 that JRRT WAS impressed with Chesterton's historical, english-roots material, but later on surpassed the Nordic knowledge available to GKC, and no longer considered his historical material reliable.
I'm wondering if the early verse form Silmarillion was influenced by BotWH as much as it was by the works of Morris and the Kalevala?
Certainly JRRT read Chesterton deeply enough to be able to drop an apropos quote from time to time (see Letters index under Chesterton).
Now then, Fim, a question on levels of interpretation:
"And all at that marvel of the sword, Cast like a stone to slay, Cried out. Said Alfred: "Who would see Signs, must give all things. Verily Man shall not taste of victory Till he throws his sword away."
(Bold face mine)
LOL, I first thought this a choan-like statement, anti-violence in its import, along the lines of toss your swords aside and go to war no more if you would achieve a real and worthy victory. Now, I'm confused, RE Fim's "So in a moment of desperation he throws his sword at his enemy and strikes him dead."
OK, NOW the moral I get from this passage is more like, "ballistics before battery!" That is, always toss something at an opponent rather than close to hand-to-hand distances? Or is the lesson more like Musashi's, "do the unexpected as a Samuri, and you will win!"
Either way, I like the ballad, its tone and presentation work well as a model for some of the Rohirric battle songs.
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Post by fimbrethil on Feb 11, 2008 20:01:26 GMT -6
Andorinha,
Sorry. I realized after I posted it that the quote may not have had the power, in isolation, that it had in context. Reading it (aloud) the first time it took my breath away, and I consider it the highpoint of the poem. But it doesn't make much sense on its own.
It was a hopeless battle. The good guys were vastly outnumbered and out-armed. Prior to the battle they all make these speeches that amount to "It is a good day to die." The bad guys are armored and armed with strong new weapons. The good guys swords are all rusty.
Colan, a good guy, had only a sword. His enemy, in scorn, stopped some distance from him and drew his bow, intending to kill him with ease, at no risk to himself. In an act of sheer desperation, Colan whirled his sword around his head and threw it as a spear at his enemy and killed him.
The point of the quote is that he gave everything he had. He launched his only weapon, took his one shot, put everything in that one action, and was (momentarily) victorious. He was utterly uncautious, and did not hesitate to risk all. Seize the day!
I'm not finding the reference right now, but I think a little later in the poem he connects the throwing of the sword to the Biblical idea that the one who would save his life must lose it.
If I were to look to Tolkien for similar moments, I think immediately of Aragorn before the gates of Mordor. He holds nothing back, and puts everything forward in an act of self-sacrifice. And, of course, Frodo - to save the Shire he had to lose it for himself.
Fimbrethil
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 12, 2008 1:53:21 GMT -6
Thanks for giving us the proper context Fimbrethil! It makes VERY good sense now. The concept of "losing all" to achieve a final saving "gain" is something JRRT seems to be very much aware of. Did he pick this up from Chesterton, or is it the common property of those trained up in the religious values of late 19th century Christian Britain?
In fact, I certainly agree with you regarding examples of how of this sentiment worked its way into Tolkien's LotR. Frodo is gradually stripped of everything as he works his way through the quest: loss of his beloved home; loss of Gandalf in moria; loss of the rest of the Fellowship (except Sam) at Rauros falls; loss of his sword (given to Sam); loss of the mithril shirt; loss of the use of the Ring; loss of a finger; and finally, maybe worst of all, loss of pride in himself as he felt that he had failed in his mission by claiming the Ring at the very end, only to be saved by Gollum. Even in the return to the Shire, Frodo is still so wounded he cannot fully participate in the celebrations, cannot find his lost sense of calm, cannot enjoy the peace his actions helped secure. He has even lost the power of recovery, wounded in so many ways, having lost almost everything, he finds a last reward that maybe, makes good all that suffering -- he goes to Valinor.
Thanks, Fim!
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 12, 2008 7:27:52 GMT -6
I think this is a very good theme and that not just Chesterton and Tolkien used it. Last ditch attempts when all else fails and pure total sacrifice to save someone or something else are very moving story-telling techniques.
However, the story-teller and how he sets up his tale and delivers the lines determines how good the story is. It sounds like Chesterton did a pretty nice job of it from reading what Fimbrethil describes here.
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Post by fimbrethil on Feb 12, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -6
I don't mean to imply that Tolkien got the idea of self-sacrifice from Chesterton. That theme is as old as humanity. And the similarities in the battle scenes that I see between the two probably stem from the roots they both have in Homer. I'm not seeing evidence of influence, but a strong feeling of similarity. It is more than just the influence of late 19th century England. There is a deep affinity of world view and values between the two.
Often, when looking for "writers like Tolkien" I've looked at other authors of the fantasy genre. But there is a huge diversity of perspective and personality of such writers, and though the settings may be similar, the underlying message may be radically different. What I am finding in Chesterton is a writer with a very different literary style, who wrote different genres, but who shares a similar foundational world view with Tolkien. The "echoes" between the writings of the two jump out at me.
The common religion is part of the similarity, but not in the way one would think. Chesterton became a Catholic fairly late in life, but I see many similarities with Tolkien even in the writings before his conversion. Possibly he became a Catholic because he thought like one - rather than the more normal assumption that he thought the way he did because he was a Catholic. (I'm currently reading his autobiography, and I'll have a clearer sense of this later.)
A few weeks ago I, too, would have said that I know almost nothing about Chesterton. I started reading him to round out my understanding of the Inklings. Now he is my new obsession. I do not claim to be any kind of expert, but I am an enthusiastic beginner. I'm using this thread to share my findings.
For example, I just learned that there is a name for that attitude that celebrates the small and the local that I was picking up in both Chesterton and Tolkien: Distributism. It was an economic philosophy, opposed to both capitalism and socialism. I am researching it now, and can write more about it if anyone cares. But Chesterton is consistently listed as one of its biggest proponents. The Tolkien quote which most clearly supports it is found in the words of Farmer Cotton in "The Scouring of the Shire": 'Take Sandyman's mill now. Pimple knocked it down almost as soon as he came to Bag End. Then he brought in a lot o' dirty-looking Men to build a bigger one and fill it full o' wheels and outlandish contraptions. Only that food Ted was pleased by that, and he works there cleaning wheels for the Men, where his dad was the Miller and his own master.'
Simply put, Distibutism holds that the ownership of the means of production should be as widely distributed as possible, so that as many families as possible are in possession of productive property.
I still have a lot to learn!
Fimbrethil
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 15, 2008 11:35:38 GMT -6
Yeah, "self-sacrifice" has an ancient pedigree, very useful virtue in any age, any society. Since Chimps also have wars, just like us, I wonder if they perform and then note such altruistic actions as well? If so, this "virtue" could be VERY old indeed. "An extra banana for Bonzo! He saved us from the leopard!"
RE: Fim's -- "It is more than just the influence of late 19th century England. There is a deep affinity of world view and values between the two. ... [re GKC and JRRT] The 'echoes' between the writings of the two jump out at me."
Yeah, there is a strongly shared ethos here, a value system that seems to unite their works, even when the individual expressions can vary greatly. As Stormrider put it: "However, the story-teller and how he sets up his tale and delivers the lines determines how good the story is." Different means of expression, both GOOD!
In the Ballad of the White Horse, p. 22 online Guttenberg version, I found what, I think will be, my favorite verse, gives me goose-flesh feelings for some reason:
And as he went by White Horse Vale He saw lie wan and wide The old horse graven, God knows when, By gods or beasts or what things then Walked a new world instead of men And scrawled on the hill-side.
Just what "things" might these have been!?
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Post by fimbrethil on Feb 15, 2008 17:15:33 GMT -6
Andorinha, Thanks for lifting up that great quote! It gives a feeling of something ancient and primordial. What "things" were here, before us? And they walked a new world, while we wander an old one. The very earth bears the marks of ones who went before us in a past so distant we cannot comprehnd. The "White Horse" for which the ballad is named, and which this quote is about, is the Uffington White Horse. It is a hill figure which dates back around 3000 years to the bronze age. The turf was cut off of the chalk hill, leaving a white figure of a horse against the green. Throughout the intervening millenium it has had to be regularly scoured, to keep the turf from growing back over it. Looking at pictures of it, it does seem ancient - even beyond 3000 years - and it is an oddly formed figure, like cave drawings, giving the feeling that it was drawn by someone who saw the world differently than we do today. How would it feel to live near such a tangible reminder of the presence of the ancient beings who came before us? You can see pictures of it, and learn more about it, at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uffington_White_HorseFimbrethil
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Post by Andorinha on Feb 16, 2008 9:28:16 GMT -6
Fimbrethil, Thank You for the Uffington connection! A MUCH bigger beast than I was thinking, and, as you mention, done up in an eerie, abstract-style that does lend an "alien air," or at least an "ancient-ancient air" to the whole place. I reFriended it was old, but not THAT old either. Sometimes as a reader you run across some stimulating passage that won't let your imagination off the hook. Now I'll have to snoop around for more data on the "horse," see if it has reliably been tied in with any particular culture. One other benefit from looking (even in this introductory fashion) into the Tolkien-Chesterton connection, I'm dragging out the accounts of Albert's life trying to see why Tolkien's Letter to Priscilla claimed that GKC did not know his nordic histories well. Is there some "gaff" or three ole GKC committed in his relation of the Saxon king's story - LOL, one thing leads to another, I soon should know a good deal about Alfred! I've been looking for an affordable, but also authorative biography on Chesterton, the one by Alzina Stone Dale seems the best, but it is a re-issue of a 1958 original, and I was hoping to find something a bit more up-to-date. When my copy finally gets here, I'll let you all know if I think it very helpful. Meanwhile, on the Google advanced book search platform, I can at least read bits and pieces of it, and it seems standardly informative. Chesterton seems to have switched among several "styles/ genres" as he wrote. I'm looking for his more "fantastical" offerings now, to see how they compare with JRRT in narrative tone, composition, and feeling. Results to follow! books.google.com/books?id=v-qdYispxcwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=G.+K.+Chesterton+%2B+biography&sig=SrS0sTkVFFubaB07UgtNTvS33Ng#PPA4,M1
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 17, 2008 8:35:09 GMT -6
The Huffington White Horse is very interesting. It does seem like an ancient drawing carved out with simple lines. It is interesting that it has been kept in tact all these thousands of years.
I read the article and it says that it might have been meant to be an image of a dragon but if you look at the forelegs, the bone structure is wrong for a dragon and definately more horse-like.
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Post by Stormrider on Feb 17, 2008 8:44:07 GMT -6
I did get a book with the Father Brown stories in it. I've read the first three so far. They are very simple stories and are a little odd. Here is a synopsis of the first story:
The Blue Cross Aristide Valentin, the head of the Paris police, was looking for Flambeau who had committed many crimes and escaped capture time and time again. Valentin arrives in London, gets off the train, and follows clues that have been left at various places along the way. Very odd since the criminal never left any clues!
First there was salt in the sugar bowl and sugar in the salt shaker at the restaurant where he breakfasted. The waiter thought it was two clergymen who had breakfasted there earlier and one had thrown soup at the wall. The hurried off down the street and the waiter did not chase them but pointed out the direction they went.
Second down the road was a fruiterer who had his products out on the street. The pricing was switched around on the Brazil nuts and tangerine oranges when two clergymen came by and upset the apples all over the street. The fruiterer tells him that they went on a yellow bus to Hampton so Valentin gets on the next bus to Hampton along with a couple of plain clothesmen.
Along the way, Valentin keeps looking out the window for other disturbances and finds a window broken in another restaurant, stops the bus, and gets out with the plain clothesmen, who are grumbling about how a broken window is proof that it is the clergymen who did it.
Speaking to the waiter, they discover the two clergymen had eaten lunch and that they had been overcharged three times the amount of their lunch. The waiter tried to stop them and correct the bill, but the little clergyman said to keep it because it would pay for the knock-out and he broke the window and left. The waiter said they left toward another street and Valentin and the cops head that way.
They stop at a candy shop and Valentin purchases 13 chocolate cigars. The lady in the shop sees the cops and asks if they came for the parcel that the gentlemen left. She explains that two clergymen came in a purchased some peppermints and left. One came running back to see if he left a brown paper wrapped parcel. They couldn’t find one. He tells her to send it to a friend in Westminster if she finds it—which she did later and sent it on.
Valentin and the cops keep headed toward the Heath and soon see the two clergymen ahead and follow. Eventually they come up to them and hide in the bushes when the clergymen sit down on a park bench so they could listen in but the two clergymen were talking as priest do—piously about theology. Valentin is embarrassed thinking the cops are laughing at him behind his back.
He was about to come out behind the bushes and give up the chase when the taller priest tells the smaller priest to hand over the sapphire cross that he is carrying. The tall priest admits that he is Flambeau and the small priest (now called Father Brown by Flambeau) says that he won’t give him the cross.
Flambeau tells Father Brown that he switched the packages and he actually has the cross and Brown has an empty package. Father Brown acts startled but tells Flambeau that he has heard of the package switching routine from a penitent of his who lived for twenty years switching packages.
Father Brown suspected Flambeau on the bus because he had a bulge under his sleeve where the spiked bracelet is. (What does that mean? Is it some kind of mark of an escaped convict?) Tipped off by the bulge, Father Brown watched Flambeau switch the packages and then re-switched them when Flambeau wasn’t looking, and finally left the real package with the candy shop lady.
Father Brown then tells Flambeau that the greatest detective in all of France and two policemen are hiding in the bushes and they come out and grab Flambeau. It turns out that Father Brown left the clues for Valentin so he would follow him! Flambeau the thief was not about to leave any traces for the authorities to follow so Father Brown thought he would help out be leaving the trail of clues.
*** That's the first one in a nutshell. It seems that Father Brown has a great deal of intuition and foresight.
How did Father Brown know that Valentin was on the bus? I would assume Valentin would not want to draw attention to himself if he was on the trail of Flambeau.
How did Father Brown know that Valentin would follow his clues? The types of small incidents that Father Brown created seem hardly worth Valentin's consideration. Perhaps Valentin was just at his witts end and was taking up on anything out of the ordinary in a last ditch effort to find Flambeau.
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