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Post by Stormrider on Oct 6, 2008 6:09:08 GMT -6
Well, I am glad Tolkien believed all his talking races had normal reproductive systems. Spawning just sounded very strange when I read it in Foster's. Female Elves must have been captured and tortured by Melkor as well as the males. I don't think Tolkien ever put a gender onto those Elves that were captured. He wrote: "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty." and "All those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prision, and by slow arts of cruelty were currupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves." It makes sense that Melkor would want females to help his new breed populate. Regarding your note above on orcs eventually mating with humans to make the orcs among us today, Saruman did that already and bred the Uruk-hai so there had to have been a natural breeding process--not like PJ's vision of Uruk's coming out of slime fully grown. Saruman must have been under Sauron's thumb for a long time to build that army! Were the Uruks more in control of their urges because they were more humanized? Couldn't they follow orders from Saruman and command their own units better than the original Orcs? Or would they be more independent and think for themselves and do what they wanted instead? Or a combination of both--they obeyed their Master but thought for themselves when a decision needed to be made instantly. Can you imagine a female orc who has had it up to her ears with a squalling infant orc--and I am sure the infants could be quite beastly in their own small way? It is difficult to imagine the children growing up with a flesh eating mother who has been tried by a squalling brat. But maybe I am not giving the instinct of motherhood enough credit here.
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Post by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Oct 6, 2008 23:40:11 GMT -6
That could again explain why orcs never showed any other qualities besides cruelty and malice and evil, Stormrider. Perhaps the less hardy, less violent orcs simply didn't survive childhood-- the runts and "weaker" members of the litter were wiped out by their own families!
I stand by the idea that orcs were not innately evil but that their culture as it had been shaped under the Dark Lords made it very hard for them to be anything else. They likely had to be tough and cruel to survive.
Regarding the slaves of Mordor, I agree that this probably didn't include the orcs. As cool an idea as that would be-- Aragorn calling a truce and magnanimously allowing the orcs to form their own society-- that doesn't seem very likely given Tolkien's approach to the enemy races. My guess is that the orcs that survived the fall of Sauron retreated underground to the sheltering dark and lived like the Goblins of the Misty Mountains.
Given Tolkien's penchant for tying his mythology to existing myths, perhaps the remaining orcs evolved into the smaller, more mischievous goblins and hobgoblins of later folklore. Just as the elves "diminished" in number (and possibly size), supposedly inspiring our stories of elves and Fair Folk in later centuries, the same would probably be true of the orcs.
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 7, 2008 6:29:30 GMT -6
The more I think about Aragorn allowing any surviving Orcs their own land to live in peace, it seems far fetched. Given the nature of the Orcs, they would not have any tendencies to live peacefully. Sooner or later, they would desire man flesh and go out a-hunting and cause a great deal of trouble!
Good points, Freddie. I like these ideas:I could believe such did happen.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Oct 9, 2008 7:04:33 GMT -6
Stormrider started writing a story about an orc that wasn't evil...it is actually funny!
I have to agree that if the orc were fashioned after elves they should have the normal reproduction organs...males and females....
I believe after Sauron was defeated something had to happen with the orcs....maybe they weren't granted a kingdom, but they had to have gone somewhere to live....maybe in different tribes hiding out all over Middle Earth....
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Post by Stormrider on Oct 25, 2008 5:40:09 GMT -6
Oh yes, Bâshsnak in my role play story, Riff Raff in Middle Earth, located here: tolkiensring.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=roleplay&action=display&thread=338It was going to be sort of an action/adventure/comedy. What I started writing wasn't actually written humorously but more along the lines of action/adventure. I guess you could laugh at the predicaments that Bâshsnak got into; but from his point of view, it wasn't funny. I went back and scanned through what I wrote. It was really shaping up nicely! Someday when I get some spare time, I will try to get back into the tale. Desi and Majah were to have characters that Bâshsnak was to eventually meet up with and tie their talents into the tale, too. I don't know if they would still be interested in doing that or not someday.
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Post by Desi Baggins on Nov 5, 2008 9:02:19 GMT -6
I remember having a character planned, but I can't remember who or what it was!!!
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 6, 2008 6:58:34 GMT -6
Your character was going to be a Troll. I thought Bâshsnak was going to meet up with him in Mirkwood or in the woods somewhere. And then Majah was going to be another Orc in Moria. I don't know which way Bâshnak was headed first--it seems that he is heading for Mirkwood hot on the trail of a Ranger and Gollum.
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Post by Andorinha on Nov 6, 2008 10:42:30 GMT -6
Well, I hope youse guys get this storyline started up again; just read the openning posts from RRIME again, lots of fun, very good stuff: whot happens next?
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Post by Stormrider on Nov 7, 2008 7:22:03 GMT -6
I don't know when I can get it going again. I am soooo busy right now. Maybe next year after the holidays are over. I really have to put my Bâshsnak hat back on and think of where I was headed with the story. (Well, definately Mirkwood--but the way to get there!) I don't think Majah is interested in participating any more. She hasn't posted here in ages although I do AIM her once in a while still.
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Post by Andorinha on Apr 27, 2009 8:03:51 GMT -6
Some Further Information
Earlier in this discussion, message 14, we outlined some questions concerning the Orcs:
Re: Growing Up Orc (and Troll) in Middle-earth. « Andorinha -- Reply #14 on 10/5/08 at 22:25 »
"We have, I think, three separate questions here:
"1. Did Aragorn include Orcs and possibly Trolls in the land-grant of the Lake Nurnen district?
"2. Could/ did Orcs survive the last battle of the Third Age when Sauron was defeated?
"3. How do Orcs procreate?" ____________
Today, I'd like to deal specifically with #2 -- "Could/ did Orcs survive the last battle of the Third Age when Sauron was defeated?"
I just finished part four of the History of LOTR, The End of the Third Age, and in its last pages there are several versions of an unused epilogue in which Sam would be found talking with his hobbit children some time after Frodo/ Bilbo's departure for the West. In these scenes, JRRT was trying to wrap up some of the loose ends of ME in a question-answer session. Here we are told that Shadowfax went to the Elflands with Gandalf, that Legolas moved with a number of Forest Elves into Ithilien where a new city was built for Faramir and Eowyn, that the Ents and Entwives were still estranged, etc.
One of the bits of information actually concerns the fate of the Orcs in Middle-earth. In this epilogue one, or another, of his children ask: "Have the Mines of Moria been opened again? Are there any Orcs left?" (EoTA, p. 116 and second version on p. 122) To which Sam answers, "Moria: I have heard no news. Maybe the foretelling about Durin [his return to life and lordship] is not for our time. Dark places still need a lot of cleaning up. I guess it will take a lot of trouble and daring deeds yet to root out the evil creatures from the halls of Moria. For there are certainly plenty of Orcs left in such places. It is not likely that we shall ever get quite rid of them." (EoTA p. 122)
Apparently then, in JRRT's own scheme, Orcs did survive the fall of Sauron, and just might possibly be with us still... Hmm, I think Mikey M. (school bully in 5th grade, who was evil enough to beat up girls as well as boys, even bit Miss Sink the teacher) might qualify as one of the survivors! My "evil," elder sister makes two (she has reformed nicely in the past 4 decades proving the redeemability of some).
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