Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 15:35:24 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Bombadil goes Boating
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Message 1 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:53 PM
The old year was turning brown; the West Wind was calling;
Now we get to journey with Tom on an adventure outside the Old Forest. This is by far one of my favorites as it tends to make Tom seem a little more approachable or less God-like.
1. When in relation to TLotR timeline do you think this tale occurs, before or after?
2. Whom are some of favorite troublemakers?
3. Do you think Goldberry was miffed that Tom took off to go drinking without her? (Trick question)
4.Do you think Tolkien wrote this work to confirm Bombadils place within the Trilogy, or it has no other meaning but to entertain.
5. Please refer to the "Poetic Devices" board for more technical discussion if you wish. I think Rivers questions on that board can apply to all 16 poems, and I think we shall refer back to it with each verse.
Hope you are enjoying as much as me!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 2 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/4/2002 7:08 PM
Because this is a merry meeting between Tom and Farmer Maggot , I would place this poem before or at the time of Bilbo's Birthday party. It could just as easily have occurred before Frodo leaves the Shire. I'm basing this on the late night swapping of tidings - "...of walkings and of ridings...queer tales from Bree...tall watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the Marches..." This could explain why Tom was expecting the hobbits. Choosing this interpretation would also confirm Tom's place in FOTR.
As far as Goldberry is concerned, she is not mentiond nor referred to in "Boating". This presents, for me, two possible scenarios. The first is that "Boating" takes place between that morning when Tom awakes to discover his love for Goldberry and that "one day" when Tom catches her. Perhaps this boating excursion is, for Tom, an Old Forest kind of Batchelor Party LOL.
The second theory is that Bombadil has not yet met Goldberry which brings to mind the gathering of Water Lilies in Adventures and during the Hobbits' visit. This makes me think that they are newly weds enjoying a blissful honeymoon when Frodo enters Tom's domain. Perhaps the wedding takes place just before the hobbits' arrival? Fascinating questions, Iarwain. Most enjoyable. I can't wait for others to add their thoughts to this thread.
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Message 3 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:13 PM
Nice work Annie!
I think you have an incredible amount of insight into this Tale. As the theory of the time line goes I had been considering after the War of the Ring, as kind of a celebratory break from the Old Forest. But when you consider his leaving his boat behind, perhaps he was in a rush to meet the Hobbits as they journyed into his Realm. "The old year was turning brown" seems to speak of Fall, and Bombadil had been gathering lilles for his Goldberry before they all died due to Winter. Perhaps as well a peace offering to fair Goldberry for being out too late. All in all you have delighted me with your interpretation.
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 4 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:52 PM
Very good Annie! I had always assumed that TB got info about Frodo from Gandalf. To think it might have come from Farmer Maggot, is interesting indeed. Perhaps it even occured after Frodo's visit with Maggot? The farmer did seem to sense Frodo was on important business, if I remember correctly. This actually increases my respect for Old Maggot, to think he was so close to a being like TB that his whole family would eat, dance and sing together. But since the Maggot family were hobbits, does it not seem strange that more hobbits from the Shire should have known about TB?
Thoughts anyone?
Oh, and in regard to Goldberry, if the timeline is correct, I think she knows that after having been married to him for a while, she knows he follows his fancy, and had better let him do what he bloody well wishes, lol
Glor
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Message 5 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:23 AM
Thank you kindly, Honorable Lore Master and Rune Singer:
Leaving the boat behind seemed an odd thing to do, out of character somehow but I haven't been able to put meaning to that action, until now. Rushing to meet the hobbits just might fit here. Makes a world of sense especially when we add Glor's insights below. This would cancel out my idea of Tom rushing off to "catch" Goldberry. But what's all this about rushing? Doesn't seem to fit the Bombadil personality. OK, I'm back to mulling again.
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Message 6 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:50 AM
Great bit of inductive reasoning, Glor. Annie salutes you.
That TB got info about Frodo from Gandalf was I disagreeumption as well. In FOTR Maggot warns Frodo against going into the old Forest, seemed mighty concerned about that. He not only sensed that Frodo was on important business, he even took the hobbits to the Ferry in his wagon. So if the hobbits were with Maggot before Tom, he would definitely have a lot to say to old Tom. It would also fit nicely with what Iarwain said about leaving the boat and rushing off to meet the hobbits. I was really excited about this until...
"But since the Maggot family were hobbits, does it not seem strange that more hobbits from the Shire should have known about TB?" I would agree. Gandalf mentioned that there was more to Maggot than meets the eye. Perhaps the old Farmer was very selective with whom he swapped tidings. But what about the rest of the family? ummmm ... back to mulling. Ok, all you readers out there, what say you?
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Message 7 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 11:52 AM
I think the mystery of why Farmer Maggot would know Tom is easily solved by his occupation. As a farmer he would have to cart his goods to Bree to sell giving him many opportunities to meet TB. As to why he wouln't mention him look at the way Bilbo was talked about after hanging out with Dwarves and Elves how would it look for solid Farmer Maggot to be hanging about with a brightly dressed singing fellow who lives in he strangest place around. It would seem very unhobbitish and beng a farmer he depended on bartering with other hobbits for the goods he wanted so public opinion would have been important to him. IMHO
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Message 8 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:02 PM
As I read Bombadil Goes Boating, I got the impression that it takes place during the time of FOTR because Tom and Farmer Maggot are discussing things that have been happening in the Shire and Bree. There was discussions of "walkings and of ridings" (the Hobbits on their journey and the Black Riders looking for them).
"queer tales from Bree (perhaps gossip about strange people and things happening that were far from normal) "rumors in whispering trees, tall Watchers by the Ford" (the Elves waiting for Frodo on the Buinen?) "Shadows on the Marches" the eye of Sauron and his henchmen looking for the Ring.
As far a Goldberry is concerned, I think she and Tom have a good marriage and give each other their own space when they need it. After all, if I was married to Tom, the lively, singing, happy go-lucky person that he is, I might want a breather from him once in a while, too!
Stormrider
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Message 9 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:09 PM
Iarwain I like the idea that it was written just before LoTR because of the references to orcs and dark things and the return of the king. I think the Old Swan is my favourite busy body because he seems so uppity and snooty but yet he can't stand the good natured ridicule Tom is giving him about being that way. About Goldberry no matter how much she loves Tom having the happy go lucky nonsense singing fellow we all love underfoot all the time maybe a little unnerving after a while and I am sure my girl needed a break. I think that BGB is combination of poem for enjoyment and foreshadowing LoTR as it mentions orcs, barrow-downs, Old Man Willow, and many other things about to come.
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Message 10 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameVairë_Daystar
Sent: 8/14/2002 2:10 AM
OK, first thoughts from me...
I had considered TBgB as being set before LoTR, due to the reference to the King returning. However, I really like the idea that it could be set during the time of FotR - it would make a lot of sense. From memory, Gandalf made reference to the fact that he and TB had not seen each other for many years (I could be wrong here) which would lend credance to the idea that he got his info about the hobbits from Maggot. I'm not sure which Ford was being referred to, but we do know that the rangers were Watching the shire and surrounding lands with increased vigilance at the time.
I do see this poem as being written for sheer enjoyment. There is a wonderful note of joy throughout. Also, the spelling variant of "orks" suggests that it may have been written earlier that LoTR? We know that Tolkein imported Tom as a character he had already used.
Looking at the troublemakers, though, I do notice a rather violent streak coming out in Tom. He threatens to roast the wren on a willow stick, and skin the otter-lad. Now, considering that Tom is the Master, I don't think he'd ever have to make good on these threats, and I really don't see his relationship with the otters and others in his land as being based on fear. They couldn't tease him so much if it were. So maybe just poetic exaggeration and teasing? I'm not sure. I like the way the otter teases and teases Tom, but then goes and gets his boat for him later. I like to think that they were not asked to do this.
Right, that's all from me for now - back to the books!
Vairë
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Message 11 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/14/2002 11:33 PM
WOW, thanks Vaire! And good to see you posting again! I agree, I think TB is just teasing and would never do the things he threatened. Or why WOULD they volunterily get his boat for him?
There is a symetry, or connection with these entities and Tom. A light hearted acceptance of who is really master. I really want to hear more of your thoughts. Please post more, Vaire!
Glor
_______________________
Reply
Message 1 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/3/2002 9:53 PM
The old year was turning brown; the West Wind was calling;
Now we get to journey with Tom on an adventure outside the Old Forest. This is by far one of my favorites as it tends to make Tom seem a little more approachable or less God-like.
1. When in relation to TLotR timeline do you think this tale occurs, before or after?
2. Whom are some of favorite troublemakers?
3. Do you think Goldberry was miffed that Tom took off to go drinking without her? (Trick question)
4.Do you think Tolkien wrote this work to confirm Bombadils place within the Trilogy, or it has no other meaning but to entertain.
5. Please refer to the "Poetic Devices" board for more technical discussion if you wish. I think Rivers questions on that board can apply to all 16 poems, and I think we shall refer back to it with each verse.
Hope you are enjoying as much as me!
Namárië,
Iarwain
_____________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/4/2002 7:08 PM
Because this is a merry meeting between Tom and Farmer Maggot , I would place this poem before or at the time of Bilbo's Birthday party. It could just as easily have occurred before Frodo leaves the Shire. I'm basing this on the late night swapping of tidings - "...of walkings and of ridings...queer tales from Bree...tall watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the Marches..." This could explain why Tom was expecting the hobbits. Choosing this interpretation would also confirm Tom's place in FOTR.
As far as Goldberry is concerned, she is not mentiond nor referred to in "Boating". This presents, for me, two possible scenarios. The first is that "Boating" takes place between that morning when Tom awakes to discover his love for Goldberry and that "one day" when Tom catches her. Perhaps this boating excursion is, for Tom, an Old Forest kind of Batchelor Party LOL.
The second theory is that Bombadil has not yet met Goldberry which brings to mind the gathering of Water Lilies in Adventures and during the Hobbits' visit. This makes me think that they are newly weds enjoying a blissful honeymoon when Frodo enters Tom's domain. Perhaps the wedding takes place just before the hobbits' arrival? Fascinating questions, Iarwain. Most enjoyable. I can't wait for others to add their thoughts to this thread.
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:13 PM
Nice work Annie!
I think you have an incredible amount of insight into this Tale. As the theory of the time line goes I had been considering after the War of the Ring, as kind of a celebratory break from the Old Forest. But when you consider his leaving his boat behind, perhaps he was in a rush to meet the Hobbits as they journyed into his Realm. "The old year was turning brown" seems to speak of Fall, and Bombadil had been gathering lilles for his Goldberry before they all died due to Winter. Perhaps as well a peace offering to fair Goldberry for being out too late. All in all you have delighted me with your interpretation.
Namárië,
Iarwain
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/6/2002 4:52 PM
Very good Annie! I had always assumed that TB got info about Frodo from Gandalf. To think it might have come from Farmer Maggot, is interesting indeed. Perhaps it even occured after Frodo's visit with Maggot? The farmer did seem to sense Frodo was on important business, if I remember correctly. This actually increases my respect for Old Maggot, to think he was so close to a being like TB that his whole family would eat, dance and sing together. But since the Maggot family were hobbits, does it not seem strange that more hobbits from the Shire should have known about TB?
Thoughts anyone?
Oh, and in regard to Goldberry, if the timeline is correct, I think she knows that after having been married to him for a while, she knows he follows his fancy, and had better let him do what he bloody well wishes, lol
Glor
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:23 AM
Thank you kindly, Honorable Lore Master and Rune Singer:
Leaving the boat behind seemed an odd thing to do, out of character somehow but I haven't been able to put meaning to that action, until now. Rushing to meet the hobbits just might fit here. Makes a world of sense especially when we add Glor's insights below. This would cancel out my idea of Tom rushing off to "catch" Goldberry. But what's all this about rushing? Doesn't seem to fit the Bombadil personality. OK, I'm back to mulling again.
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Reply
Message 6 of 11 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/7/2002 6:50 AM
Great bit of inductive reasoning, Glor. Annie salutes you.
That TB got info about Frodo from Gandalf was I disagreeumption as well. In FOTR Maggot warns Frodo against going into the old Forest, seemed mighty concerned about that. He not only sensed that Frodo was on important business, he even took the hobbits to the Ferry in his wagon. So if the hobbits were with Maggot before Tom, he would definitely have a lot to say to old Tom. It would also fit nicely with what Iarwain said about leaving the boat and rushing off to meet the hobbits. I was really excited about this until...
"But since the Maggot family were hobbits, does it not seem strange that more hobbits from the Shire should have known about TB?" I would agree. Gandalf mentioned that there was more to Maggot than meets the eye. Perhaps the old Farmer was very selective with whom he swapped tidings. But what about the rest of the family? ummmm ... back to mulling. Ok, all you readers out there, what say you?
______________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 11:52 AM
I think the mystery of why Farmer Maggot would know Tom is easily solved by his occupation. As a farmer he would have to cart his goods to Bree to sell giving him many opportunities to meet TB. As to why he wouln't mention him look at the way Bilbo was talked about after hanging out with Dwarves and Elves how would it look for solid Farmer Maggot to be hanging about with a brightly dressed singing fellow who lives in he strangest place around. It would seem very unhobbitish and beng a farmer he depended on bartering with other hobbits for the goods he wanted so public opinion would have been important to him. IMHO
_______________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 11 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:02 PM
As I read Bombadil Goes Boating, I got the impression that it takes place during the time of FOTR because Tom and Farmer Maggot are discussing things that have been happening in the Shire and Bree. There was discussions of "walkings and of ridings" (the Hobbits on their journey and the Black Riders looking for them).
"queer tales from Bree (perhaps gossip about strange people and things happening that were far from normal) "rumors in whispering trees, tall Watchers by the Ford" (the Elves waiting for Frodo on the Buinen?) "Shadows on the Marches" the eye of Sauron and his henchmen looking for the Ring.
As far a Goldberry is concerned, I think she and Tom have a good marriage and give each other their own space when they need it. After all, if I was married to Tom, the lively, singing, happy go-lucky person that he is, I might want a breather from him once in a while, too!
Stormrider
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 11 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:09 PM
Iarwain I like the idea that it was written just before LoTR because of the references to orcs and dark things and the return of the king. I think the Old Swan is my favourite busy body because he seems so uppity and snooty but yet he can't stand the good natured ridicule Tom is giving him about being that way. About Goldberry no matter how much she loves Tom having the happy go lucky nonsense singing fellow we all love underfoot all the time maybe a little unnerving after a while and I am sure my girl needed a break. I think that BGB is combination of poem for enjoyment and foreshadowing LoTR as it mentions orcs, barrow-downs, Old Man Willow, and many other things about to come.
__________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 11 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameVairë_Daystar
Sent: 8/14/2002 2:10 AM
OK, first thoughts from me...
I had considered TBgB as being set before LoTR, due to the reference to the King returning. However, I really like the idea that it could be set during the time of FotR - it would make a lot of sense. From memory, Gandalf made reference to the fact that he and TB had not seen each other for many years (I could be wrong here) which would lend credance to the idea that he got his info about the hobbits from Maggot. I'm not sure which Ford was being referred to, but we do know that the rangers were Watching the shire and surrounding lands with increased vigilance at the time.
I do see this poem as being written for sheer enjoyment. There is a wonderful note of joy throughout. Also, the spelling variant of "orks" suggests that it may have been written earlier that LoTR? We know that Tolkein imported Tom as a character he had already used.
Looking at the troublemakers, though, I do notice a rather violent streak coming out in Tom. He threatens to roast the wren on a willow stick, and skin the otter-lad. Now, considering that Tom is the Master, I don't think he'd ever have to make good on these threats, and I really don't see his relationship with the otters and others in his land as being based on fear. They couldn't tease him so much if it were. So maybe just poetic exaggeration and teasing? I'm not sure. I like the way the otter teases and teases Tom, but then goes and gets his boat for him later. I like to think that they were not asked to do this.
Right, that's all from me for now - back to the books!
Vairë
__________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 11 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/14/2002 11:33 PM
WOW, thanks Vaire! And good to see you posting again! I agree, I think TB is just teasing and would never do the things he threatened. Or why WOULD they volunterily get his boat for him?
There is a symetry, or connection with these entities and Tom. A light hearted acceptance of who is really master. I really want to hear more of your thoughts. Please post more, Vaire!
Glor