Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 16:01:28 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Microcosmic Poetry
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Message 1 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:05 PM
Yes I made up this term. In the previous poem I picked a stanza that I thought described the entire poem in one stanza sort of a microcosm of the meaning of the entire piece. I have mine picked out for Bombadil goes Boating also but before I reveal what I think it is I would like someone to take a stab at thier ideas on which stanza thay percieve it to be. So pick out the stanza that best describes the feeling or meaning for the entire piece and tell why.
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Message 2 of 21 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:15 PM
I would have to say that the stanza that sums up the whole poem is the very first one:
The old year was turning brown; the West Wind was calling,
Tom caught a beechen leaf in the Forest falling.
'I've caught a happy day blown me by the breezes!
Why wait till morrow-year? I'll take it when me pleases.
This day I'll mend my boat and journey as it chances
west down the with-stream, following my fancies!'
The end of the year is here, the leaves are falling, and it will perhaps be his last chance to go out in his boat so why should he wait for another day. Since the weather is good he takes his chances and sets out on his adventure come what may.
Stormrider
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Message 3 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:58 PM
Little Bird sat on a twig, 'Whillo, Tom! I heed you.
I've a guess, I've a guess where your fancies lead you.
Shall I go, shall I go, bring him word to meet you.
I HAVE BEEN BLIND!
Tom never meant to meet Maggot! He was going to the Shire to meet Gandalf!! Fool I have been to not read this poem more closely. Or maybe even Radagast, hence the bird. But the interference from the Hay-down hobbits, and travel difficulties, ended him up on a road to Shire where he ran into ONE hobbit that was a friend, Maggot.
I also answered another one of my own questions. Tom WAS known by the hobbits of the Shire and Bree.......but they do not know his nature, only know he is something from the Old Forest, and shoot arrows at his hat. (allegory).
Apparently, Maggot was the only hobbit (and his family of course), that was not afraid of TB and actually knew him personally. The comment Rivers made about the other hobbit folks not taking to Maggot hanging with TB was RIGHT ON!
Glor
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Message 4 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/8/2002 6:51 AM
I don't understand Glor, why do you think Tom was off to meet Gandalf? I have always assumed 'he' in the verse you quoted meant Farmer M. I do like the idea of him meeting Radagast though!
For the microcosm, I would agree with Storm's choice and interpretation. I like this microsocm concept!
Zauber
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Message 5 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:36 AM
Nope, I was wrong. That's what I get for reading too late at night. After I re-read it again, it was Maggot he was going to see. Oh, well. This poem is making my head swim, lol.
Glor
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Message 6 of 21 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/8/2002 1:15 PM
As Zauber and Glor have noted, Bombadil was going to meet Maggot, and that's why this is my vote for the 'kernel" passage in the poem. Beyond being the purpose of this particular journey of Tom's, to me, it's what Tom is all about in a larger sense: Seeking knowledge of everything, everyone, and every event within his territory; being "a moss-gatherer," as Gandalf puts it. It's how he became, and remains, master of his world:
When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,
close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,
old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and
of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and
cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.
I like your microcosmic approach, too, Rivers!
Olórië
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Message 7 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/8/2002 9:20 PM
Storm was Johnny on the spot ,or to be PC Sally on the spot. I thought the very first stanza described the rest of the poem. The reason I don't think it was about his visit to Farmer Maggots is because at first he was following his fancies which in my opinion means whatever comes up that I want to do. Then the Willow-wren mentions the time for drinking and then Tom decides thats a good idea which I understand completely. You guys are so sharp and I am learning so much this is wonderful Thanks.
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Message 8 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:04 PM
One question, though. If TB set out on a lark to just go boating, how did Maggot know to meet him?
Glor
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Message 9 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/9/2002 6:57 AM
I understood it to be the wren that went and told Farmer Maggot to meet Tom at Mithe. Wrens are very busy-body birds; I have a pair that nest in my yard every year. They really try to 'supervise' all yard activities, and it drives my dog Wizard crazy. (He thinks if he jumps high enough he can catch the wren). So I think the wren served as a messenger, from what is said in verse four.
Zauber
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Message 10 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/9/2002 10:01 PM
The verse confused me a bit. I could not tell if Tom told the wren not to say anything, or not to say anything to anyone else. But the bird said he guessed who Tom was going to see, but did Tom ask him to deliver a message? I am so confused about this part. And why would Tom care if old man willow found out where he was going?
Glor
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Message 11 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/9/2002 10:15 PM
Glor I'm not exactly sure on the fat tat Farmer Maggot knew he was coming. When Tom got to the Causeway no one was there so he stumped along the road until Muddy feet ran up on him on his way home. Perhaps if Old Man Willow knew Tom wasn't around he would be more apt to cause mischief but it could be I've read it too may times and I'm getting goofy.
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Message 12 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/9/2002 11:12 PM
But Tom says: "Well, well, muddy feet! From one thats late from meeting away back by the Mithe that's a surly greeting!
It appears to me Tom was expecting Maggot to meet him by the Mithe, like the wren said. I think we may have discovered a Tolkien Faux Paus here. What we need is an enlighted scholar, to explain the origin and path of the adventure in simple prose. Where is Karo when you need him?? lol
Glor
Reply
Message 13 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/10/2002 2:13 AM
Touche Glor you are absolutely correct I stand in the glow of your guidance perhaps it was a clandestine meeting pre-arranged betwixt the two and Old Man Willow being bad at heart could have been a spy for Sauron to tell through the Barrow Wights of Toms whereabouts because if I wanted to control everything I would definetly want to know what a powerful creature like Tom was doing. Nah sounds too much like a spy novel but I am wondering how the meeting was set up.
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Message 14 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 8:30 AM
This is in response to Glor's questioning on how Maggot knew to meet Tom and what part the wren had to play. I guess the best thing to do is to paraphrase the verse:
Tom was out and about, wandering throught the forest when the idea came to him that he should hop in his boat and travel down-river for a bit of fun. A gossipy wren notices Tom preparing to row downriver and begins probing for information. He has apparently seen Tom make this trip before and is guessing (correctly) that Bombadil plans to go find Maggot and drink a pint or two. The wren voices her guess and then offers to go before Tom and set up a meeting with someone (Maggot most likely). Tom warns the wren to say nothing about his little trip to no one. He fears that the Forest will become unruly in his absense. Willow-man, in this instance, represents Chaos and all that could go wrong I think. The wren assures Tom that she will tell no-one (nor mention any names). Tom is apparently satisfied with this and basically gives the Wren the "go ahead".
Algamesh
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Message 15 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/12/2002 12:12 AM
Please pick out the stanza which to you best desribes the meaning of the poem Errantry. Also I am sure everyone already knows this but why did he stock his gondola with oranges?
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Message 16 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/12/2002 7:01 AM
To prevent scurvy??
Seems to me I read a reference to what this section means, Also referring to the porridge. Was it some inside joke about the difficulty of rhyming orange and porridge? If no one answers today, I'll do some research tonight, since my mind is a blank!
Zauber
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers (Original Message)
Sent: 8/7/2002 9:05 PM
Yes I made up this term. In the previous poem I picked a stanza that I thought described the entire poem in one stanza sort of a microcosm of the meaning of the entire piece. I have mine picked out for Bombadil goes Boating also but before I reveal what I think it is I would like someone to take a stab at thier ideas on which stanza thay percieve it to be. So pick out the stanza that best describes the feeling or meaning for the entire piece and tell why.
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 21 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:15 PM
I would have to say that the stanza that sums up the whole poem is the very first one:
The old year was turning brown; the West Wind was calling,
Tom caught a beechen leaf in the Forest falling.
'I've caught a happy day blown me by the breezes!
Why wait till morrow-year? I'll take it when me pleases.
This day I'll mend my boat and journey as it chances
west down the with-stream, following my fancies!'
The end of the year is here, the leaves are falling, and it will perhaps be his last chance to go out in his boat so why should he wait for another day. Since the weather is good he takes his chances and sets out on his adventure come what may.
Stormrider
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/7/2002 10:58 PM
Little Bird sat on a twig, 'Whillo, Tom! I heed you.
I've a guess, I've a guess where your fancies lead you.
Shall I go, shall I go, bring him word to meet you.
I HAVE BEEN BLIND!
Tom never meant to meet Maggot! He was going to the Shire to meet Gandalf!! Fool I have been to not read this poem more closely. Or maybe even Radagast, hence the bird. But the interference from the Hay-down hobbits, and travel difficulties, ended him up on a road to Shire where he ran into ONE hobbit that was a friend, Maggot.
I also answered another one of my own questions. Tom WAS known by the hobbits of the Shire and Bree.......but they do not know his nature, only know he is something from the Old Forest, and shoot arrows at his hat. (allegory).
Apparently, Maggot was the only hobbit (and his family of course), that was not afraid of TB and actually knew him personally. The comment Rivers made about the other hobbit folks not taking to Maggot hanging with TB was RIGHT ON!
Glor
____________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/8/2002 6:51 AM
I don't understand Glor, why do you think Tom was off to meet Gandalf? I have always assumed 'he' in the verse you quoted meant Farmer M. I do like the idea of him meeting Radagast though!
For the microcosm, I would agree with Storm's choice and interpretation. I like this microsocm concept!
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:36 AM
Nope, I was wrong. That's what I get for reading too late at night. After I re-read it again, it was Maggot he was going to see. Oh, well. This poem is making my head swim, lol.
Glor
______________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 21 in Discussion From: Olórië
Sent: 8/8/2002 1:15 PM
As Zauber and Glor have noted, Bombadil was going to meet Maggot, and that's why this is my vote for the 'kernel" passage in the poem. Beyond being the purpose of this particular journey of Tom's, to me, it's what Tom is all about in a larger sense: Seeking knowledge of everything, everyone, and every event within his territory; being "a moss-gatherer," as Gandalf puts it. It's how he became, and remains, master of his world:
When others went to bed in hay, fern, or feather,
close in the inglenook they laid their heads together,
old Tom and Muddy-feet, swapping all the tidings
from Barrow-downs to Tower Hills: of walkings and
of ridings;
of wheat-ear and barley-corn, of sowing and of reaping;
queer tales from Bree, and talk at smithy, mill, and
cheaping;
rumours in whispering trees, south-wind in the larches,
tall Watchers by the Ford, Shadows on the marches.
I like your microcosmic approach, too, Rivers!
Olórië
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/8/2002 9:20 PM
Storm was Johnny on the spot ,or to be PC Sally on the spot. I thought the very first stanza described the rest of the poem. The reason I don't think it was about his visit to Farmer Maggots is because at first he was following his fancies which in my opinion means whatever comes up that I want to do. Then the Willow-wren mentions the time for drinking and then Tom decides thats a good idea which I understand completely. You guys are so sharp and I am learning so much this is wonderful Thanks.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/8/2002 11:04 PM
One question, though. If TB set out on a lark to just go boating, how did Maggot know to meet him?
Glor
________________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/9/2002 6:57 AM
I understood it to be the wren that went and told Farmer Maggot to meet Tom at Mithe. Wrens are very busy-body birds; I have a pair that nest in my yard every year. They really try to 'supervise' all yard activities, and it drives my dog Wizard crazy. (He thinks if he jumps high enough he can catch the wren). So I think the wren served as a messenger, from what is said in verse four.
Zauber
___________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/9/2002 10:01 PM
The verse confused me a bit. I could not tell if Tom told the wren not to say anything, or not to say anything to anyone else. But the bird said he guessed who Tom was going to see, but did Tom ask him to deliver a message? I am so confused about this part. And why would Tom care if old man willow found out where he was going?
Glor
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/9/2002 10:15 PM
Glor I'm not exactly sure on the fat tat Farmer Maggot knew he was coming. When Tom got to the Causeway no one was there so he stumped along the road until Muddy feet ran up on him on his way home. Perhaps if Old Man Willow knew Tom wasn't around he would be more apt to cause mischief but it could be I've read it too may times and I'm getting goofy.
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 21 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/9/2002 11:12 PM
But Tom says: "Well, well, muddy feet! From one thats late from meeting away back by the Mithe that's a surly greeting!
It appears to me Tom was expecting Maggot to meet him by the Mithe, like the wren said. I think we may have discovered a Tolkien Faux Paus here. What we need is an enlighted scholar, to explain the origin and path of the adventure in simple prose. Where is Karo when you need him?? lol
Glor
Reply
Message 13 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/10/2002 2:13 AM
Touche Glor you are absolutely correct I stand in the glow of your guidance perhaps it was a clandestine meeting pre-arranged betwixt the two and Old Man Willow being bad at heart could have been a spy for Sauron to tell through the Barrow Wights of Toms whereabouts because if I wanted to control everything I would definetly want to know what a powerful creature like Tom was doing. Nah sounds too much like a spy novel but I am wondering how the meeting was set up.
____________________________________
Reply
Message 14 of 21 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/11/2002 8:30 AM
This is in response to Glor's questioning on how Maggot knew to meet Tom and what part the wren had to play. I guess the best thing to do is to paraphrase the verse:
Tom was out and about, wandering throught the forest when the idea came to him that he should hop in his boat and travel down-river for a bit of fun. A gossipy wren notices Tom preparing to row downriver and begins probing for information. He has apparently seen Tom make this trip before and is guessing (correctly) that Bombadil plans to go find Maggot and drink a pint or two. The wren voices her guess and then offers to go before Tom and set up a meeting with someone (Maggot most likely). Tom warns the wren to say nothing about his little trip to no one. He fears that the Forest will become unruly in his absense. Willow-man, in this instance, represents Chaos and all that could go wrong I think. The wren assures Tom that she will tell no-one (nor mention any names). Tom is apparently satisfied with this and basically gives the Wren the "go ahead".
Algamesh
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 15 of 21 in Discussion From: rivers
Sent: 8/12/2002 12:12 AM
Please pick out the stanza which to you best desribes the meaning of the poem Errantry. Also I am sure everyone already knows this but why did he stock his gondola with oranges?
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 16 of 21 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/12/2002 7:01 AM
To prevent scurvy??
Seems to me I read a reference to what this section means, Also referring to the porridge. Was it some inside joke about the difficulty of rhyming orange and porridge? If no one answers today, I'll do some research tonight, since my mind is a blank!
Zauber