Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 16:55:37 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Oliphaunt
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Message 1 of 6 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/21/2002 5:36 PM
No doubt about which of the lighthearted Hobbits felt it important to pen this into the Shire's history. One of many enjoyable and almost needed breaks in the adventure and tension in the LotR Trilogy is when Sam recites this poem.
I often remember the tail of the three blind men whom where asked to touch one part of the Elephant ad describe the animal, when reading this poem. I wonder if it had any influenec upon it?
I found a reference to what may have been Tolkien's inspiration for this in or before 1927 in a paper "Adventures in Unnatural History and Medieval Metres: being The Freaks of Fisiologus" Although "Lumbo", or "Ye kind of Ye Oliphaunt" bears little resembalance to Sam's version except the name.
It is however a good example of the Beastiary Lore style learning poem of earlier times, of which there are a possibility of one or to more to be found in our study. Any guesses as to which I refer to?
Very funny as well in this poem how it is mentioned that "You wouldn't forget me." , when one consders the folklore that Elephants never forget. There are I think a couple of more twist in folklore to be had in this poem, can anyone find them?
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 2 of 6 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/21/2002 6:05 PM
That they never lie, may be one, though I don't recall every hearing it. Also the part about I never lie down not even to die. I assume that refers to the fact that elephants sleep on their feet, and maybe also a reference to the elephants graveyard. All in all, a fun poem.
Glor
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Message 3 of 6 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/22/2002 7:44 AM
Hmm, folk-lore? Maybe the "nose like a snake"?
Definitely a "Sam poem"! And I wonder if the end, "If ever you'd met me..." reflected other Hobbits not believing that Sam had actually met one on his adventures.
Zauber
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Message 4 of 6 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/29/2002 10:10 PM
I've noticed that the poem Oliphaunt is different in that there is no attempt at narrative. The entire poem is consumed in description of the beast in question (recorded through the Oliphaunt's own eyes).
Another thing that strikes me is how similar these lines are to the "old lists" that Treebeard recites to Merry and Pippin.
Algamesh
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Message 5 of 6 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 11:46 AM
After reading Oliphaunt, I was reminded of the old Indian (Hindu) tale of the 6 blind men and the elephant (is this the poem you were referring to, Iarwain?) and also a "fable" by Carl Sandburg, "Elephants are different to different People".
In response to Iarwain’s, "It is however a good example of the Beastiary Lore style learning poem of earlier times, of which there are a possibility of one or to more to be found in our study. Any guesses as to which I refer to?"
The obvious ones would be "Cat" and "Fastitocalon". I wonder if "The Mewlips" might be included? But as Algamesh pointed out elsewhere, we can’t quite be sure what these strange "creatures" are.
I thoroughly enjoyed this whimsical piece.
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Message 6 of 6 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 10:32 AM
Annie,
Quite correct Carl Sandburg's fabled blind men's description goes through my head when I read this verse. Any stabs at Edgar Rice Burroughs, or Rudyard Kipling? How about Abe Lincoln's... "When you have got an elephant by the hind leg, and he is trying to run away, it's best to let him run."
In regards to: "As I tramp through the grass; Trees crack as I pass."
Perhaps a bit obscure, but it came to mind as I was considering other elephant lore and qoutes. I doubt however, Tolkien would have been familiar with Lincoln's remark to Charles A. Dana on April 14th 1865 just before his assination.
So in regards to "The Mewlips" Annie I agree that it too seems to be a Beastiary stlye poem so perhaps we should discuss this more on the Mewlips' Board.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 6 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 8/21/2002 5:36 PM
No doubt about which of the lighthearted Hobbits felt it important to pen this into the Shire's history. One of many enjoyable and almost needed breaks in the adventure and tension in the LotR Trilogy is when Sam recites this poem.
I often remember the tail of the three blind men whom where asked to touch one part of the Elephant ad describe the animal, when reading this poem. I wonder if it had any influenec upon it?
I found a reference to what may have been Tolkien's inspiration for this in or before 1927 in a paper "Adventures in Unnatural History and Medieval Metres: being The Freaks of Fisiologus" Although "Lumbo", or "Ye kind of Ye Oliphaunt" bears little resembalance to Sam's version except the name.
It is however a good example of the Beastiary Lore style learning poem of earlier times, of which there are a possibility of one or to more to be found in our study. Any guesses as to which I refer to?
Very funny as well in this poem how it is mentioned that "You wouldn't forget me." , when one consders the folklore that Elephants never forget. There are I think a couple of more twist in folklore to be had in this poem, can anyone find them?
Namárië,
Iarwain
____________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 6 in Discussion From: Glorfindle
Sent: 8/21/2002 6:05 PM
That they never lie, may be one, though I don't recall every hearing it. Also the part about I never lie down not even to die. I assume that refers to the fact that elephants sleep on their feet, and maybe also a reference to the elephants graveyard. All in all, a fun poem.
Glor
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 6 in Discussion From: Zauber
Sent: 8/22/2002 7:44 AM
Hmm, folk-lore? Maybe the "nose like a snake"?
Definitely a "Sam poem"! And I wonder if the end, "If ever you'd met me..." reflected other Hobbits not believing that Sam had actually met one on his adventures.
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 6 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/29/2002 10:10 PM
I've noticed that the poem Oliphaunt is different in that there is no attempt at narrative. The entire poem is consumed in description of the beast in question (recorded through the Oliphaunt's own eyes).
Another thing that strikes me is how similar these lines are to the "old lists" that Treebeard recites to Merry and Pippin.
Algamesh
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 6 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 11:46 AM
After reading Oliphaunt, I was reminded of the old Indian (Hindu) tale of the 6 blind men and the elephant (is this the poem you were referring to, Iarwain?) and also a "fable" by Carl Sandburg, "Elephants are different to different People".
In response to Iarwain’s, "It is however a good example of the Beastiary Lore style learning poem of earlier times, of which there are a possibility of one or to more to be found in our study. Any guesses as to which I refer to?"
The obvious ones would be "Cat" and "Fastitocalon". I wonder if "The Mewlips" might be included? But as Algamesh pointed out elsewhere, we can’t quite be sure what these strange "creatures" are.
I thoroughly enjoyed this whimsical piece.
______________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 6 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 10:32 AM
Annie,
Quite correct Carl Sandburg's fabled blind men's description goes through my head when I read this verse. Any stabs at Edgar Rice Burroughs, or Rudyard Kipling? How about Abe Lincoln's... "When you have got an elephant by the hind leg, and he is trying to run away, it's best to let him run."
In regards to: "As I tramp through the grass; Trees crack as I pass."
Perhaps a bit obscure, but it came to mind as I was considering other elephant lore and qoutes. I doubt however, Tolkien would have been familiar with Lincoln's remark to Charles A. Dana on April 14th 1865 just before his assination.
So in regards to "The Mewlips" Annie I agree that it too seems to be a Beastiary stlye poem so perhaps we should discuss this more on the Mewlips' Board.
Namárië,
Iarwain