Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 17:04:09 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: FASTITOCALON
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Message 1 of 7 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 2:40 PM
Did anyone wonder, while reading this poem, why Tolkien chose a giant tortoise-like creature, rather than an alligator, to pose as an island? Somehow I have always envisioned the Crocodile or Alligator as a perfect part of a series of stepping stones across an expanse of water. Ah, to be a gull and rest upon the turtle's back (or Crocodile's) and know you will never sink. What a terrible way to end one's dancing days. Loved the ending of this poem. What a great toast:
"Your days at peace on Middle-earth
In mirth
Fulfill!"
_____________________________________
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Message 2 of 7 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 9:41 AM
This poem like Oliphaunt is a Beastiary style poem and was oringinally published with a different version of Oliphaunt under the title "Adventures in Unnatural History and Medievel Metres: being The Freaks of Fisiologus" in 1927. It is interesting to note that the poem was signed Fisiologus. Seems even then Tolkien was trying to blame his work on fictitious enities.
Annie,
Interesting question to ask so I tried to dig up some lore on a mythical beast similar to the affore mentioned Fastitocalon. As a child I had a book on mythical monsters and I recall a creature in the book behaving much the same way but I never located the exact name or description, here is what I did find however:
Leviathan- (Hebrew) described as a giant crocodile (ME)- levathan.
Behemoth- mentioned by Job in the Bible 40:15-24 perhaps he was describing a huge hippopotamus?
Kraken-(Norway) A legendary seamonster which caused large whirpools off Norways coast. Many consider it a giant squid.
Not much in the giant turtle department, but I'm sure there is some myth that can be seen as an origin to Fastitocalon somewhere.
My own perception is of the sundering seas between Middle Earth and the Undying Lands there are many pitfalls to getting there, I had always imagined this might be one of them.
According to the Preface this poem was on the marginalia and an authors signature was not to be found, although Sam is responsible for our other two Beastiary verses I am inclined to suspect Bilbo as being the author of this fanciful creature.
"Pay no heed to sailors' lore,
Set foot on no uncharted shore!
Or better still,
Your days at peace on Middle-earth
in mirth
Fulfill!"
Namárië,
Iarwain
____________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 7 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 9/5/2002 11:54 AM
Perhaps this is a reference to the Loch Ness Monster and the giant tortoise was the closest thing that resembled Nessy! Imagine Bilbo's surprise to see this in the sea, or lake, or wherever!?!
Stormrider
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Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
Sent: 9/5/2002 12:36 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
Sent: 9/5/2002 12:47 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 6 of 7 in Discussion From: Karo6
Sent: 9/5/2002 12:52 PM
LOL I am having enormous difficulties posting here -- keep losing the top half of my mini-dissertatrion!
We are very lucky in the case of this poem to have a fairly full explanation of the developmental history laid out in Letter #255: 5 March, 1964, pp 343 - 344. Here JRRT details his immediate Old English (Anglo-Saxon) source for this concept of an enormous, threateningly hungry "turtle island." The OE version which Tolkien adapted, putting it in the hands of some Hobbit poet, was derived from the very real Greek Classical work (4th century CE) attributed to an Alexandrine Christian, Physiologus (who shows up as Fisiologus in the 1927 source Iarwain cites).
In the OE Bestiary, Tolkien tells us, the Anglo-Saxon compiler borrowed the Greek term "aspido-chelone" = round shield back + turtle, corrupting the original name into the OE, latinized form Astitocalon. But since the OE poet was using an Anglo-Saxon form of alliteration rather than a rhyme scheme, he added an initial "F" to maintain the alliteration of the line.
Tham is noma cenned / Fyrnstreama gefloten Fastitocalon
Which Tolkien translates somewhat floridly as:
To him is name appointed / to the floater in the ancient tide Fastitocalon
More economically I find the OE reads:
To him is name known / widestream-floater, Fastitocalon
An absolutely wonderful, very full treatment of the Physiologus Bestiary is found at
www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/besttest/firstpag.html
where the original concept of a floating turtle island is traced back to the ancient orient, most probably a tale picked up by the Greeks of Alexander the Great's invasion force somewhere in India.
Iarwain: apparently the north Germanic sailors in the 12th century did not have much familiarity with the large sea turtles, and they connected the Fastitocalon monster with the closest, sensible source available, as you point out: the leviathan stories of the Bible. From this connection the Anglo Saxons gave a "whale like" configuration to the original turtle.ˇ
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Message 7 of 7 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 1:15 PM
Karo,
Well done, I feel rather foolish though looking through much other litrature for an origin, and all along it was within "Letters" DUH! I now recall the book "Mythical Monsters" I mentioned earlier referred to the creature I mentioned as Aspido or Aspidol, it was a rather silly chidrens book and had little more than comical drawings of the beast and a short paragraph of the origins, but seems it was not far off from Tolkien.
Thank you so much for finding the information, you are really a jewel my friend!
Namárië,
Iarwain
______________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 7 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 2:40 PM
Did anyone wonder, while reading this poem, why Tolkien chose a giant tortoise-like creature, rather than an alligator, to pose as an island? Somehow I have always envisioned the Crocodile or Alligator as a perfect part of a series of stepping stones across an expanse of water. Ah, to be a gull and rest upon the turtle's back (or Crocodile's) and know you will never sink. What a terrible way to end one's dancing days. Loved the ending of this poem. What a great toast:
"Your days at peace on Middle-earth
In mirth
Fulfill!"
_____________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 7 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 9:41 AM
This poem like Oliphaunt is a Beastiary style poem and was oringinally published with a different version of Oliphaunt under the title "Adventures in Unnatural History and Medievel Metres: being The Freaks of Fisiologus" in 1927. It is interesting to note that the poem was signed Fisiologus. Seems even then Tolkien was trying to blame his work on fictitious enities.
Annie,
Interesting question to ask so I tried to dig up some lore on a mythical beast similar to the affore mentioned Fastitocalon. As a child I had a book on mythical monsters and I recall a creature in the book behaving much the same way but I never located the exact name or description, here is what I did find however:
Leviathan- (Hebrew) described as a giant crocodile (ME)- levathan.
Behemoth- mentioned by Job in the Bible 40:15-24 perhaps he was describing a huge hippopotamus?
Kraken-(Norway) A legendary seamonster which caused large whirpools off Norways coast. Many consider it a giant squid.
Not much in the giant turtle department, but I'm sure there is some myth that can be seen as an origin to Fastitocalon somewhere.
My own perception is of the sundering seas between Middle Earth and the Undying Lands there are many pitfalls to getting there, I had always imagined this might be one of them.
According to the Preface this poem was on the marginalia and an authors signature was not to be found, although Sam is responsible for our other two Beastiary verses I am inclined to suspect Bilbo as being the author of this fanciful creature.
"Pay no heed to sailors' lore,
Set foot on no uncharted shore!
Or better still,
Your days at peace on Middle-earth
in mirth
Fulfill!"
Namárië,
Iarwain
____________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 7 in Discussion From: Stormrider
Sent: 9/5/2002 11:54 AM
Perhaps this is a reference to the Loch Ness Monster and the giant tortoise was the closest thing that resembled Nessy! Imagine Bilbo's surprise to see this in the sea, or lake, or wherever!?!
Stormrider
____________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
Sent: 9/5/2002 12:36 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
Sent: 9/5/2002 12:47 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 7 in Discussion From: Karo6
Sent: 9/5/2002 12:52 PM
LOL I am having enormous difficulties posting here -- keep losing the top half of my mini-dissertatrion!
We are very lucky in the case of this poem to have a fairly full explanation of the developmental history laid out in Letter #255: 5 March, 1964, pp 343 - 344. Here JRRT details his immediate Old English (Anglo-Saxon) source for this concept of an enormous, threateningly hungry "turtle island." The OE version which Tolkien adapted, putting it in the hands of some Hobbit poet, was derived from the very real Greek Classical work (4th century CE) attributed to an Alexandrine Christian, Physiologus (who shows up as Fisiologus in the 1927 source Iarwain cites).
In the OE Bestiary, Tolkien tells us, the Anglo-Saxon compiler borrowed the Greek term "aspido-chelone" = round shield back + turtle, corrupting the original name into the OE, latinized form Astitocalon. But since the OE poet was using an Anglo-Saxon form of alliteration rather than a rhyme scheme, he added an initial "F" to maintain the alliteration of the line.
Tham is noma cenned / Fyrnstreama gefloten Fastitocalon
Which Tolkien translates somewhat floridly as:
To him is name appointed / to the floater in the ancient tide Fastitocalon
More economically I find the OE reads:
To him is name known / widestream-floater, Fastitocalon
An absolutely wonderful, very full treatment of the Physiologus Bestiary is found at
www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/besttest/firstpag.html
where the original concept of a floating turtle island is traced back to the ancient orient, most probably a tale picked up by the Greeks of Alexander the Great's invasion force somewhere in India.
Iarwain: apparently the north Germanic sailors in the 12th century did not have much familiarity with the large sea turtles, and they connected the Fastitocalon monster with the closest, sensible source available, as you point out: the leviathan stories of the Bible. From this connection the Anglo Saxons gave a "whale like" configuration to the original turtle.ˇ
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 7 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 1:15 PM
Karo,
Well done, I feel rather foolish though looking through much other litrature for an origin, and all along it was within "Letters" DUH! I now recall the book "Mythical Monsters" I mentioned earlier referred to the creature I mentioned as Aspido or Aspidol, it was a rather silly chidrens book and had little more than comical drawings of the beast and a short paragraph of the origins, but seems it was not far off from Tolkien.
Thank you so much for finding the information, you are really a jewel my friend!
Namárië,
Iarwain