Post by Andorinha on Jan 14, 2009 17:43:09 GMT -6
AdvOf TB ARCHIVE: Mewlips
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Message 1 of 12 in Discussion From: jerseyshore
Sent: 8/28/2002 4:37 PM
The poem, " The Mewlips," intrigued me. It is so delightfully creep! It reminds me of something from Edgar Allen Poe.
I think a lot of its success comes from the alliteration--especially the constantly repeated sibilants. Just like Gollum with his "Yessss, my precioussss." , the reoccuring "s" sounds in this poem give a feeling of something that hides in the dark and hisses like a snake.
Just why do we find the "sss" so sinister?
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Message 2 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/29/2002 10:18 PM
I would love to be able to find more information on what JRRT was getting at with this particular poem. I believe that it may be one of my favorites in the collection due to the fact that the imagery is vivid. I am able to visualize the Mewlips surroundings quite well, although, I still haven't the foggiest notion as to how I should imagine a Mewlip!
It seems at points in the verse that they are unsavory Men. They live in constructed abodes, they have a lust for wealth, a need for light, etc.. This view makes it much more disturbing when one gets to the last line ... "You go to find the Mewlips ... and the Mewlips feed". Taken literally, we would assume that they are then cannibals possibly ... Whoa!
What inspired JRRT to script a dark piece such as this? WOW!
Algamesh
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Message 3 of 12 in Discussion
Sent: 8/30/2002 11:40 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
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Message 4 of 12 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 11:56 AM
It is creepy isn’t it, JerseyShore? Interesting that you should mention Edgar Allen Poe. While researching this verse, I discovered that it had originally been printed as "Knocking at the Door: Lines induced by sensations when waiting for answer at the door of an Exalted Academic Person". In The Oxford Magazine, Oxford, vol. 55, no. 13 (February 18th, 1937), p. 403. Reprinted as "The Mewlips" but was unable to find the poem itself. When I read your post, I thought of the RAVEN and the oft quoted, "…rapping, rapping at my chamber door". Seems both Tolkien and Poe were filled with dread and heightened anxiety at the opening of the "door".
In an Untitled document by Tomas Vilhelm Kullstrom at:
users.cybercity.dk/~bkb1782/tolkien/mewlips.html
I found a hobbit map. Where the Old Forest Road meets River Running on the east side of Mirkwood is a hand pointing out THE MEWLIPS. My hobbit map does not show this. Anyone else have a map indicating the dwelling place of the mewlips?
I found the following description at: home7.swipnet.se/~w-70531/Tolkien/hoblore/mmain.htm
According to the lore of hobbits, an evil race of cannibal spirits called the mewlips settled in certain marshlands of Middle-earth. Hoarding phantoms very like the dreaded barrow-wights they seemed, but they made their homes in foul and dank swamps. Travellers in their lands always walked in peril, for many were said to be waylaid by these beings.
Could this partly answer the questions you had, Alg?
"Taken literally, we would assume that they are then cannibals possibly ... Whoa!
What inspired JRRT to script a dark piece such as this? WOW!"
I can only repeat your "Whoa!" and"WOW!"
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/31/2002 7:29 AM
Annie!
I could not have received better information! Thank you! I had no idea that Mewlips were actually a part of the Arda bestiary. Whoa and WOW!
Algamesh
_____________________________________________
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Message 6 of 12 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 9/1/2002 12:02 PM
The place descriptions in the Mewlips made me think of the Old Forest. Thanks, Annie, now I know why. Great research!
It looks like Tolkien felt like his university job was a necessary evil. Maybe he felt like the university and publishers fed on him and drained him. Sometimes I get that feeling from his letters, too.
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Message 7 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 11:28 AM
Annie!
Wonderful job, you covered just about everything in my notes.
Sparrow,
Interesting observation because before Tolkien penned this poem he and his family had a run in with influenza in January of that yeart. But it is later January 17th 1937 he had submitted "Mr. Bliss" for publication. The pulishers George Allen & Unwin said they would be happy to publish the story if tolkien could reduce the number of colors in the drawings. He had at that time as well been re-drawing maps and illustrations for "The Hobbit" which would finally be published on September 21st 1937. So I can't recall where I found the information but the deal with the publisher was ridiculous, as heard it told, giving Tolkien nothing until they had recovered all printing cost and then splitting the profits 50/50 after all was paid for. Some other problems he was having with publishers that can be found in "Letters" were when he returned altered work to the publishers they claimed that there were so many alterations that Tolkien himself would have to pay part of the cost of correction.
So those thoughts in mind, we might consider: "Are dark and wet as Ink" or submission after submission: "to knock upon their door." Very neat thought Sparrow!
There had been a question of this poem fitting the Beastiary style of some of our previous poems, and I would say yes, although with a much more morose theme then any of the Beastiary poems thus far.
Has any one read H.G. Wells "The Time Machine"? Merlock Mountains, and cannibal spirits hiding in the dark places of the Earth. Hmmmmmm, probably no connection.
Namárië,
Iarwain
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 9/7/2002 1:44 AM
Wow, indeed. This discussion has really opened up the Mewlips poem for me. Annie, how funny that Tolkien would think up Mewlips at the door of an exulted academic. Iarwain and Sparrow, now I cannot read this poem with out noticing those references to publishers, so I think you are right that it was intended this way. Here's what I've been thinking about this, tried to organize it.
Mewlip -Beowulf- Gollum
The Mewlips made me think of was the monster Grendel from Beowulf, and though there seems to be a Beowulf study in the works, I thought I'd bring it up here, because I found the similarities went further than I thought, even though they may seem obvious to you all.
1.The first similarity is in the description of the landscape where the Mewlips live. Even the illustration of The Mewlips in my Tolkien Reader (I think by Pauline Baynes, do most of you have these same illustrations?) is similar to some of Tolkien's drawings he titled Wudu Wyrtum Faest, Grendel's Mere. The similarity in the drawings must be from Pauline Baynes following the professor's wishes here.
The other thing is that the Mewlips themselves seem like Grendel. I don't recall the words in Beowulf, but he seemed to creep and slink. The Mewlips, "Go softly with a squish-flap-flip, as they sidle to the door." Plus, of course, Grendel killed and ate people like the Mewlips. The Mewlips count money so they seem more human, perhaps in this sense more cannibalistic, as others have said. Also counting money could be a sign of their geed, Grendel is often shown as lustful for blood, which is similar to greed in a way?
2.And, as Jerseyshore said straight off, the Mewips seem similar to Gollum. I agree. For example, the Mewlips "peep out slyly; through a crack. Their feeling fingers creep." I recall descriptions of Gollums long fingers being used to strangle his various assundry victims in LotR and the Hobbit. Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo in the Hobbit, and as we find out this is pretty near caniballism, as Gollum is hobbitish. I found this interesting because, all of the sudden, Smeagol seems similar to Grendel, which could be more profound then it might seem, as Gollum is a pivitol character in LotR.
One of the things that has stayed in my mind about Beowulf, is the empathetic perspective (almost) that the tale has for Grendel. When Grendel is bleeding to death, you have to feel sorry for him. The story takes his part. I seem to remember English people comparing it to Milton taking the Satan's part in Paradise lost. Similarly, there's always an undercurrent of sympathy for Gollum, amid the many layers of disgust, anger, etc. I don't know. He's a complicated character.
The other thing is though, Gollum is very different then Grendel in many ways, and this is where I really marvel at Tolkien who is drawing from Beowulf and other tales, but weaving it in such unexpected and original ways. For example, you don't find a Grendel- like entinty as a primary evil in LOTR, the way Grendel is (at least at first) in Beowulf. Tolkiens conceptions of the big evils are much different, more thoughtful, more powerful, more truly evil. But....... I still don't think I've come to any conclusion on Gollum. Hmmm.
fallohide
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Message 9 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 9/7/2002 1:50 AM
Sorry, I meant English people in the sense of English literature scholars, and not residents of England.
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Message 10 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/7/2002 2:32 AM
Neat perspective Fallohide,
I am inclined to agree that The Mewlips and Golum may have a "Grendel" connection.
Don't forget Gollum was a secretive creature who in one description: "Frigtened the birds and beast of the forest, and slipped into windows snatching infants". There is also the subteranean lake although Golums lake was within a cave, and Grendel's cave was within a lake. And with the Mewlips their subteranean "cellars" are by a pool.
Another loose one is the Mewlips had their "grinning gargoyles" as sentries. Grendel had the "swarms of reptiles in the water and strange dragons groping in the depths; while monsters, serpents, and fierce brutes basked upon the cliffs slopes", and Golum, had the Orcs (probably very gargoyle like) in the tunnels above his cavern, although I suspect with Golum's case it was more opportunistic that he had his sentinals.
Yes very interesting connections to consider when the Beowulf thread starts up, I look forward to it.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 12 in Discussion
From: Karo6 Sent: 9/7/2002 3:06 AM
This has been a VERY good poem so far as rich analyses go! Very impressed by everyone's work here! I'll just quietly in the corner and take more notes!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 12 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 9/7/2002 10:34 PM
It's a good thing the Beowulf study has been pushed back, because I am less and less willing to miss it.
Iarwain, I'm glad you liked my observation, and thank you for expounding on it.
Karo6, sitting quietly? Preposterous!
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 12 in Discussion From: jerseyshore
Sent: 8/28/2002 4:37 PM
The poem, " The Mewlips," intrigued me. It is so delightfully creep! It reminds me of something from Edgar Allen Poe.
I think a lot of its success comes from the alliteration--especially the constantly repeated sibilants. Just like Gollum with his "Yessss, my precioussss." , the reoccuring "s" sounds in this poem give a feeling of something that hides in the dark and hisses like a snake.
Just why do we find the "sss" so sinister?
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/29/2002 10:18 PM
I would love to be able to find more information on what JRRT was getting at with this particular poem. I believe that it may be one of my favorites in the collection due to the fact that the imagery is vivid. I am able to visualize the Mewlips surroundings quite well, although, I still haven't the foggiest notion as to how I should imagine a Mewlip!
It seems at points in the verse that they are unsavory Men. They live in constructed abodes, they have a lust for wealth, a need for light, etc.. This view makes it much more disturbing when one gets to the last line ... "You go to find the Mewlips ... and the Mewlips feed". Taken literally, we would assume that they are then cannibals possibly ... Whoa!
What inspired JRRT to script a dark piece such as this? WOW!
Algamesh
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 12 in Discussion
Sent: 8/30/2002 11:40 AM
This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 12 in Discussion From: AnnieLT
Sent: 8/30/2002 11:56 AM
It is creepy isn’t it, JerseyShore? Interesting that you should mention Edgar Allen Poe. While researching this verse, I discovered that it had originally been printed as "Knocking at the Door: Lines induced by sensations when waiting for answer at the door of an Exalted Academic Person". In The Oxford Magazine, Oxford, vol. 55, no. 13 (February 18th, 1937), p. 403. Reprinted as "The Mewlips" but was unable to find the poem itself. When I read your post, I thought of the RAVEN and the oft quoted, "…rapping, rapping at my chamber door". Seems both Tolkien and Poe were filled with dread and heightened anxiety at the opening of the "door".
In an Untitled document by Tomas Vilhelm Kullstrom at:
users.cybercity.dk/~bkb1782/tolkien/mewlips.html
I found a hobbit map. Where the Old Forest Road meets River Running on the east side of Mirkwood is a hand pointing out THE MEWLIPS. My hobbit map does not show this. Anyone else have a map indicating the dwelling place of the mewlips?
I found the following description at: home7.swipnet.se/~w-70531/Tolkien/hoblore/mmain.htm
According to the lore of hobbits, an evil race of cannibal spirits called the mewlips settled in certain marshlands of Middle-earth. Hoarding phantoms very like the dreaded barrow-wights they seemed, but they made their homes in foul and dank swamps. Travellers in their lands always walked in peril, for many were said to be waylaid by these beings.
Could this partly answer the questions you had, Alg?
"Taken literally, we would assume that they are then cannibals possibly ... Whoa!
What inspired JRRT to script a dark piece such as this? WOW!"
I can only repeat your "Whoa!" and"WOW!"
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameLord_Algamesh
Sent: 8/31/2002 7:29 AM
Annie!
I could not have received better information! Thank you! I had no idea that Mewlips were actually a part of the Arda bestiary. Whoa and WOW!
Algamesh
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 12 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 9/1/2002 12:02 PM
The place descriptions in the Mewlips made me think of the Old Forest. Thanks, Annie, now I know why. Great research!
It looks like Tolkien felt like his university job was a necessary evil. Maybe he felt like the university and publishers fed on him and drained him. Sometimes I get that feeling from his letters, too.
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/5/2002 11:28 AM
Annie!
Wonderful job, you covered just about everything in my notes.
Sparrow,
Interesting observation because before Tolkien penned this poem he and his family had a run in with influenza in January of that yeart. But it is later January 17th 1937 he had submitted "Mr. Bliss" for publication. The pulishers George Allen & Unwin said they would be happy to publish the story if tolkien could reduce the number of colors in the drawings. He had at that time as well been re-drawing maps and illustrations for "The Hobbit" which would finally be published on September 21st 1937. So I can't recall where I found the information but the deal with the publisher was ridiculous, as heard it told, giving Tolkien nothing until they had recovered all printing cost and then splitting the profits 50/50 after all was paid for. Some other problems he was having with publishers that can be found in "Letters" were when he returned altered work to the publishers they claimed that there were so many alterations that Tolkien himself would have to pay part of the cost of correction.
So those thoughts in mind, we might consider: "Are dark and wet as Ink" or submission after submission: "to knock upon their door." Very neat thought Sparrow!
There had been a question of this poem fitting the Beastiary style of some of our previous poems, and I would say yes, although with a much more morose theme then any of the Beastiary poems thus far.
Has any one read H.G. Wells "The Time Machine"? Merlock Mountains, and cannibal spirits hiding in the dark places of the Earth. Hmmmmmm, probably no connection.
Namárië,
Iarwain
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 9/7/2002 1:44 AM
Wow, indeed. This discussion has really opened up the Mewlips poem for me. Annie, how funny that Tolkien would think up Mewlips at the door of an exulted academic. Iarwain and Sparrow, now I cannot read this poem with out noticing those references to publishers, so I think you are right that it was intended this way. Here's what I've been thinking about this, tried to organize it.
Mewlip -Beowulf- Gollum
The Mewlips made me think of was the monster Grendel from Beowulf, and though there seems to be a Beowulf study in the works, I thought I'd bring it up here, because I found the similarities went further than I thought, even though they may seem obvious to you all.
1.The first similarity is in the description of the landscape where the Mewlips live. Even the illustration of The Mewlips in my Tolkien Reader (I think by Pauline Baynes, do most of you have these same illustrations?) is similar to some of Tolkien's drawings he titled Wudu Wyrtum Faest, Grendel's Mere. The similarity in the drawings must be from Pauline Baynes following the professor's wishes here.
The other thing is that the Mewlips themselves seem like Grendel. I don't recall the words in Beowulf, but he seemed to creep and slink. The Mewlips, "Go softly with a squish-flap-flip, as they sidle to the door." Plus, of course, Grendel killed and ate people like the Mewlips. The Mewlips count money so they seem more human, perhaps in this sense more cannibalistic, as others have said. Also counting money could be a sign of their geed, Grendel is often shown as lustful for blood, which is similar to greed in a way?
2.And, as Jerseyshore said straight off, the Mewips seem similar to Gollum. I agree. For example, the Mewlips "peep out slyly; through a crack. Their feeling fingers creep." I recall descriptions of Gollums long fingers being used to strangle his various assundry victims in LotR and the Hobbit. Gollum threatens to eat Bilbo in the Hobbit, and as we find out this is pretty near caniballism, as Gollum is hobbitish. I found this interesting because, all of the sudden, Smeagol seems similar to Grendel, which could be more profound then it might seem, as Gollum is a pivitol character in LotR.
One of the things that has stayed in my mind about Beowulf, is the empathetic perspective (almost) that the tale has for Grendel. When Grendel is bleeding to death, you have to feel sorry for him. The story takes his part. I seem to remember English people comparing it to Milton taking the Satan's part in Paradise lost. Similarly, there's always an undercurrent of sympathy for Gollum, amid the many layers of disgust, anger, etc. I don't know. He's a complicated character.
The other thing is though, Gollum is very different then Grendel in many ways, and this is where I really marvel at Tolkien who is drawing from Beowulf and other tales, but weaving it in such unexpected and original ways. For example, you don't find a Grendel- like entinty as a primary evil in LOTR, the way Grendel is (at least at first) in Beowulf. Tolkiens conceptions of the big evils are much different, more thoughtful, more powerful, more truly evil. But....... I still don't think I've come to any conclusion on Gollum. Hmmm.
fallohide
__________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN Nicknamefallohide
Sent: 9/7/2002 1:50 AM
Sorry, I meant English people in the sense of English literature scholars, and not residents of England.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 12 in Discussion From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 9/7/2002 2:32 AM
Neat perspective Fallohide,
I am inclined to agree that The Mewlips and Golum may have a "Grendel" connection.
Don't forget Gollum was a secretive creature who in one description: "Frigtened the birds and beast of the forest, and slipped into windows snatching infants". There is also the subteranean lake although Golums lake was within a cave, and Grendel's cave was within a lake. And with the Mewlips their subteranean "cellars" are by a pool.
Another loose one is the Mewlips had their "grinning gargoyles" as sentries. Grendel had the "swarms of reptiles in the water and strange dragons groping in the depths; while monsters, serpents, and fierce brutes basked upon the cliffs slopes", and Golum, had the Orcs (probably very gargoyle like) in the tunnels above his cavern, although I suspect with Golum's case it was more opportunistic that he had his sentinals.
Yes very interesting connections to consider when the Beowulf thread starts up, I look forward to it.
Namárië,
Iarwain
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 12 in Discussion
From: Karo6 Sent: 9/7/2002 3:06 AM
This has been a VERY good poem so far as rich analyses go! Very impressed by everyone's work here! I'll just quietly in the corner and take more notes!
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 12 in Discussion From: sparrow
Sent: 9/7/2002 10:34 PM
It's a good thing the Beowulf study has been pushed back, because I am less and less willing to miss it.
Iarwain, I'm glad you liked my observation, and thank you for expounding on it.
Karo6, sitting quietly? Preposterous!