Wk 1, Bk 5, Ch1: Gandalf a Wizard?

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 10:02 PM

Gandalf by Timos Kauimtzoglou

Tolkien compares Denethor and Gandalf through Pippin's eyes.

"Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older."

Pippin's comparison of the two give him a moment of reflection about Gandalf. He wonders why he never thought much about where Gandalf came from and when he would leave it.

Why do you think Pippin never thought much about Gandalf's background and circumstances?

Did Pippin (and all the Hobbits for that matter) think of Gandalf just as a wise old man and nothing more?

Stormrider

[Stormrider]

From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 3/17/2003 3:44 AM
As I remember it, the Hobbits loved Gandalf best for his great fireworks; it is only later, when they see the peril, that they realize that Gandalf's real work is much more dangerous.

Pearl

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From: galenas Sent: 3/17/2003 6:48 AM
I think the Hobbits of the Shire, being a sheltered group, never gave much of a thought to anything aside from gardening and pipeweed. I do believe they thought Gandalf an occasional visitor who brought wonderous fireworks and entertainment......and for his part, I believe he desired it to be so.

Galenas

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From: Desi-Baggins Sent: 3/17/2003 8:44 AM
Hobbits are oftened refered to a children because of their size but I think thye are also like children bcause of them living sheltered lives. Even though children ask questions they also see things how they want to. The Hobbits (Pippin) only wanted to see Gandalf as a fun bearing visitor and not a wizard that would bring troubles to their world. So when Pippin sees Denethor with Gandalf in these troubling times he finally grows up sort of speak and questions what he never had before.

Desi

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From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 10:35 AM
I think that the hobbits perception of Gandalf was more likely limited by how much Gandalf revealed or did not reveal about himself.

Understanding Gandalf seemed to be on a need-to-know basis! Linda

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From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 3/17/2003 11:01 AM
I think Desi and Linda are close to my perception. From the Hobbit we are aware that Gandalf had visited the Shire when Bilbo was a child. He had helped the Old Took celebrate a birthday if I recall. It seems to me Gandalf treated the Shire as a quiet hideaway from the chores of Middle-earth. Indeed the Hobbits were isolated, and I think that is what drew Gandalf there a Holiday Camp for him if you will away from toil and pain of the brewing war. But as fate or forsight would have it, it became a central point to the War of the Ring. So, as what little we know of Gandalfs earlier visits before Bilbos quest seem to have a fun, or relaxed intent to them, I suspect, but not so much intentionally, that Gandalf had little need to reveal any of his true nature to his simple host until the Ring became known to him. Just a weary old man with a pipe weed fixation up till then looking for a haven to relax.
Iarwain

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From: Merlin the mad Sent: 3/17/2003 4:27 PM
But this not the SAME Gandalf they had known before. He was seen to fall, and then he came back as Gandalf the White. Pip knows Gandalf has changed: that makes his perception of Denethor more interesting: because outwardly Gandalf has resumed the old man guise, while Pip knows far more about Gandalf's true nature than Denethor does.

MtM

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From: Fosco Baggins Sent: 3/17/2003 5:57 PM
Powerful people of stature seem to be able to exhibit a type of power and regalness. The TRULY powerful, do not need such trappings. I think Pippin saw the stature of a mighty, kingly man in Denethor, but in Gandalf he saw an even greater power and wisdom, hidding just below the old man guise. Gandalf seems to use this ploy to great advantage many times throughout the book. When the time arises that he need show his true power and greatness, the startling transformation works to great affect.

I think it speaks to the hobbit's growth and perception that he is beginning to gleam the true definitions of power and wisdom. I also believe that Gandalf uses this as a tool to teach the young hobbit the wisdom of true power. Not only is Gandalf directing the fate of those in his care, he is instructing them too. No wonder the poor man has so much on his mind all the time!

Fosco

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From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/17/2003 7:05 PM
I hope this isn't crossing the line(I'm not sure exactly what the rule are here vs BNU), but since Tolkien was a Catholic, here I go:

I really liked what Fosco said about the TRULY powerful not needing the trappings of power and regalness. This reminds me very much of the picture painted of Jesus Christ in the gospel accounts. Most of the Jews were expecting a king with all the pomp and circumstance, instead they got one that was humble and dedicated to serving others. When he didn't meet their expectations, they rejected him. Apparently, they lacked the wisdom to see the hidden power within.

-- Rusco

p.s. Even though Tolkien strongly disliked allegory, there are so many similarities between Gandalf and Jesus - it's hard not to draw comparisons.

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From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 8:29 PM
This also reminds me of lines from Chapter & of the Tao Teh Ching:

The highest type of ruler is one whose existence is unknown.
Next comes the ruler whom people love and praise.
Next comes the ruler whom people fear.
Next comes one who they despise and defy.

***

The Sage is self-effacing and scanty of words.
When his task is accomplished and things have been done
All the people say, "We did it ourselves!"

Off-hand, I can't think who better fits this description than Gandalf.

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 3/17/2003 10:58 PM
Gandalf's mission was to inspire and help the Men of Middle Earth to take the steps needed in bringing down Sauron and his realm. If he had been flashy and brassy he would have put people off. Ok, ok, the fireworks were flashy, but they were also fun and entertaining not "show offy" and they endeared him to the hobbits (and perhaps other peoples of ME as well).

I have always thought that a person who does not rush into saying things before he thinks what he is saying is also very wise and one to consider a friend and counsellor to trust. Gandalf needed to build trust with all the people of ME so that they would take his suggestions seriously.

Pippin may have seen many things about Gandalf during his life and current quest and his realization was building the more he saw. Standing there looking at both Gandalf and Denethor may have triggered the knowledge that Pippin had stored in his memory on Gandalf and suddenly he really did realize Gandalf was very powerful.

Stormrider

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From: sparrow Sent: 3/26/2003 10:29 PM
Leave it to me to revive a dormant thread -
when others only want to move ahead. . .

Let's not forget that Pippin already knew, but perhaps hadn't though much about, a lot about Gandalf, from his experiences during Gandalf's visit to the Shire and also from traveling on the quest with him. He also knew a little about Denethor, which he learned through his membership in the Fellowhsip and his acquaintance with Boromir. Even if he hadn't thought about this information before, perhaps he had internalized it, and only when he saw the two together did it surface.

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From: Stormrider Sent: 3/27/2003 7:49 AM
Dormant?

I hope all the threads stay alive and active, Sparrow! It is never to late to put your thoughts down! Keep them coming!

Stormrider

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From: Majah Sent: 3/27/2003 8:43 AM
sometimes when you trust a person so completely, you do not always dig deeper.
Majah squeeks