Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 12:40:40 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Beowulf on Steorarume & Other Þingas
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Message 1 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/19/2002 6:53 PM
Wesað ge eall hal!
I'm the 'cyber-editor' of Beowulf on Steorarume and so I would welcome any comments, suggestions, &c. on my edition of 'Beowulf'.
A few comments which may or may not be helpful - I see the other editions recommended are Heaney's & Breedon's cyber-edition. Heaney's version is good, though Seamus takes some poetic liberties here and there. I don't care much for Breedon's to be honest. In paper-form, I would also recommend H. Chickering's edition and possibly D. Porter's word-for-word translation if you want the next step between my edition and actually reading the Old English. Also online, though alas not yet complete, is a very nice translation by Tim Romano available at www.aimsdata.com/tim/beowulf_trans.htm I also highly recommend Syd Allan's site www.jagular.com/beowulf/, which has such things as comparisons between different translations of Beowulf.
At Syd's site there are some selected recordings of Beowulf in Old English - if anyone is interested in a full recording of Beowulf in Old English, _Chaucer Studios_ just released a very nice dramatic recording, with different speakers for the the different characters, narrator, &c. Chaucer Studios homepage is: humanities.byu.edu/Chaucer/. Unfortunately, they do not yet list the Dramatic Beowulf recording in the online catalogue. But one may send a cheque for US$20, including postage, made in favour of 'The Chaucer Studio' to:
Prof. Paul R. Thomas
Dept. of English
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602-6218
USA
For orders outside the USA and other questions you should contact Dr. Thomas: paul_thomas@byu.edu
--B. Slade
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Message 2 of 31 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 10/21/2002 4:57 AM
Dear Slade, welcome to TR. I am enjoying your site tremendously. Thank you for your work. Thanks, also, for the links you provided. Unfortunately, all I've been able to do so far is skim both Beowulf sites. I especially want to thank you for the link to Chaucer Studios. I love listening to Old English. I am trying to learn the language through U of Calgary, however, I am now hopelessly behind for this semester.
I hope you enjoy your time here with us and hope to learn much from your insights. ---DA
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Message 3 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/22/2002 6:26 AM
Slade! Welcome to Tolkien's Ring! How did you find us, and find out I was using your translation of Beowulf? I intended to contact you at some point, just to express my appreciation of all the work you have done, and how good your site is. I have been researching Beowulf looking for sites to use in this study, and yours certainly seemed both comprehensive and accessible.
I too don't care for Breedon's translation that much, but some people here wanted an easy prose translation that would take less time to read. I have poked around in Syd Allen's site, and will check out Tim Romano's and the Chaucer Studios site. Thanks!
Zauber
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Message 4 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/22/2002 9:06 AM
Zauber & DaleAnn-
Thanks for the welcome. I found the Beowulf study on the Tolkien ring because I have a counter which shows me from whence hits to my site originate.
Breedon's translatation is the equivalent of 'Cliff's Notes' in my opinion, and he also cuts out some sections.
Thanks for the compliments on Beowulf on Steorarume - it's gratifying to know that people find the site useful and enjoyable - it is the product of many hundreds of hours of work! And I'm still adding more of course.
I'll be happy to try to answer any Beowulfian (Beowulfish?) questions as time allows.
best,
B. Slade
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Message 5 of 31 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/26/2002 8:44 PM
First and foremost, thank you very much for posting your work on the net. The supplementary materials and glosses are extremely helpful too.
I have two questions about translation. At line 188, "Nirvana" is used. I don't understand that word used in conjunction with seeking a (Christian) god after death. Or are the Lord and Father referred to the king. I checked Breeden, and he might be fun, but he's no help. Heaney gives "Blessed is he who after death/can approach the Lord/and find friendship in the Father's embrace." (I have Chickering on the way). I'll do some more comparison of versions at jagular (great site), but I thought you might have a quick answer.
At line 315, "dacoits" is used. Why not something like "robbers" which is what I found in the OED?
Thanks very much for your help.
Cheers,
Cathy
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Message 6 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/26/2002 9:21 PM
Cathy -
You've picked up on two of my 'Indianisms'.
First, 'Nirvana' (l. 188) [which is actually literally means 'blown out' in Sanskrit, as in a candle flame]. Two reasons - the first is probably a bit naughty and that is this 'subverts' the "Christian" interpretation. I don't think, despite the received knowledge of the moment, that _Beowulf_ is in any meaningful way (or historical way) a 'Christian' poem. Lines 170ff. are puzzling to me. Many think they're an interpolation not present in the 'original' text (whatever that might mean) - I checked Romano's translation and he simply omits ll.180-189 altogether. I'm hesistant to start 'crossing out' bits of the poem, but I believe either (1) they're unoriginal, thus I am quite happy to 'subvert' them or, (2), they are original, but are not actually 'Christian' and thus 'Nirvana' works well to 'block' a 'Christian' reading.
The second reason is a bit more sound perhaps, and that is that OE 'freoðo' is hard to translate. Heaney's "friendship" is OK, but not a very literal rendering. 'freoðo' or 'frið' is probably usually rendered as "peace" and is often used in the Chronicles when a treaty was made (temporarily!) with the Vikings. It is also used in refer to 'un-outlawing' an outlaw and additionally has the senses of "tranquility", "security", "refuge". So the most literal rendering in this context, attempting to capture the full range of nuances, might be "tranquil and secure refuge-peace" or the like. Or maybe "blissful refuge", as a less awkward phrase. I think you might see how I felt 'Nirvana' to be a decent rendering for a notion like "blissful refuge".
But, to answer your other question - yes, Lord and Father refer to some deity or other - I've tried to always capitalise words referring to 'God' in my translation.
'dacoits' (l.319) [from Hindi 'dakait', "member of a robber band or gang; bandit"] I don't have as satisfying of an explanation for. The OE is 'wrað werod', literally something like "hostile army" or "hostile host". But I think both "army" and "host" imply a rather more organised group of men than what I believe the poem intends. Romano has "invaders" but that is going beyond what the poem actually says. "Robbers" isn't really the meaning, "bandits" [from Italian 'bandito', "to band together"] is probably closer, "brigands" [also from Italian, 'brigante', deriving from 'brigare', "to fight"] is probably better. But I chose 'dacoits', which is more or less the same thing as "brigands", but in my mind (and maybe only in my mind!) implies something a bit nastier.
hope this helps,
cheers,
-Ben
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Message 7 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/28/2002 7:50 AM
CathyL, very good observations of Tolkien's use of Old English words to create names of characters that we are familiar with. To me, it means next time I read about Beorn, I will think 'warrior', which gives an added depth to him. All of your observations 'hold up' quite nicely! Keep skimming -- there's more to come! This is an example of what I meant by Tolkien's work being steeped in Beowulf.
Slade -- I stumbled upon the thorn and eth symbols when we read a book about Tolkien written by Tom Shippey. Can you explain why there are two symbols that mean the same thing? Or is there a finer distiction between them?
I also wanted to ask if you have read Tolkien and are a 'fan'? It is a real bonus having you present for this study.
Zauber
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Message 8 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/28/2002 8:17 AM
KathyL and Slade, very nice stuff here! I slipped right past Nirvana, but did have to look up dacoits. I fleetingly wondered how the Anglo-Saxons knew about them, but didn't stop to ponder further. So it's interesting to see that you KathyL picked that up.
I had no idea Nirvana translated as 'blown out'. What a vivid image!
There will be a thread starting in early November about Christianity and paganism, and it will be interesting to enlarge upon the question of whether Beowulf is Christian, Pagan, or Pagan interpreted by Christians. So I am intrigued by your approach Slade, of blocking a Christian reading.
I liked the phrase 'un-outlawing an outlaw" and can't resisit: wouldn't that make an un-outlawed outlaw an in-law?
A more serious question:How is Steorarume translated? How did you come up with an Old English version of CYBER?
Zaube
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Message 9 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/28/2002 9:39 PM
Actually, thinking about it, 'Beorn'--though I'm sure Tolkien must have also had in mind OE 'beorn' (warrior, man)--is probably primarily derived from ON. 'björn' (bear), considering Beorn's shape-shifting nature...
Thorn (Þ or þ) and eth (Ð or ð) don't 'mean' anything different. That is, they both stand for the same sound (or, sounds). Usually they sound like the 'th' of 'thistle', unless they stand between two vowels (or, more precisely, between two voiced segments, which includes more than just vowels, but is a bit complicated to explain unless one has a basic background in linguistics/phonetics), in which case they sound like the 'th' of 'them' (there's a similar alternation in modern English plurals, cp. cat-s [=cats] v. dog-s [=dogz] ).
Why are there two different letters? Good question - the basic answer, so far as I know, is that they are independent developments. Many early manuscripts simply use d in place of either thorn or eth, and only later do scribes begin adding the stroke to the d which makes it into an ð (in OE script, both 'd' & eth have a curved tail - only difference is the cross-stroke). The thorn developed out of the runic script, as did the form for 'w' in OE script (called 'wynn', from the rune of the same name, also looks sort of like a 'funny "p"'). It's also sort of like the two different forms of sigma in Greek, one for the end of words and one for other places, or like 'long-s' in renaissance printing - purely orthographic conventions. There are some patterns: thorn has a tendency to occur at the beginnings of words, and eth at the ends of words - but these are only tendencies and frequently one sees the opposite. By the bye, the ahistoric 'ye' (of 'ye olde shoppe) is actually a misinterpreted thorn - so it was never 'ye', but always 'the' (or 'þe').
Yes, I do enjoy Tolkien's writing - my mother read 'The Hobbit' to me as a child, and I read both the Hobbit & LoTR as a young child, and have reread both many times since.
cheers, B.
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Message 10 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/28/2002 10:09 PM
Zaube-
'Steorarum' ("Cyberspace") is from Prof. Berkhout's 'Circolwyrde Wordhord' (computer word-hoard) page ( www.u.arizona.edu/%7Ectb/wordhord.html ). It's literally 'steora' (pilot[ed], "steer[ed]") 'rum' (space, "room"), for 'cyber-' means something like "human-controlled" (thus 'piloted'). If modern English didn't form tech. words off of Latinate/Graeco words, then 'cyberspace' in modern English would be something like 'Steer-room' (or, probably, 'star-room', like 'starboard').
Yes, I'll happy to discuss the 'Christian' v. 'pagan' question later on (one of the most discussed aspects of the poem!). I'm actually giving a paper at the next Anglo-Saxonist meeting entitled '…þrym gefrunon, …helle gemundon : Indogermanic shruti and Christian smriti in the Epistomology of Beowulf<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> ' (shruti & smriti are Sanskrit terms, once again!) which makes what I think is an interesting argument for a 'pagan' Beowulf poem. When we get to it, I'll also outline the 'received position' of the 20th-c. on the poem's 'pervasive Christianity', and some more interesting variants of the same idea.
cheers,
--B.
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Message 11 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/28/2002 10:12 PM
actually, '<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft.com:office:office:/> <o:p> </o:p>' is not part of the title, but rubbish that msn seems to have put in when I cut & paste the title...
--B.
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Message 12 of 31 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/29/2002 10:15 PM
Glad you sent the update. I thought you'd won the prize for the most obscure title ever , but I find it soooooo difficult to believe that MSN could have messed anything up.
Your comments have been lots of help. I can hardly wait to get into the issues of a pagan/Christian Beowulf. Right now I'm thinking about Order/Chaos and Fate in the poem. I have promised my spousal unit I will buy no more books for awhile so anything you can relate about the current state of scholarship on Beowulf is highly welcome (I don't get out much).
This is turning out to be much more fun than I expected and very interesting apart from JRRT, no disrespect intended.
Cathy
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Message 13 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/30/2002 6:08 AM
I'll bet Tolkien was tickled pink to come up with Beorn for that character's name, and derived it from both sources to mean "Warrior Bear". It's a play on words, which Tolkien really enjoyed. And it is perfect! (At some point I want to do a collection of Tolkien's word-plays and puns).
Thanks, Slade, for your explanation of thorn and eth. I am going to keep a copy of that handy for when I read Tom Shippey"s "Author of the Centruy" again, as I found it confusing. Now I won't. It is interesing to me that we have only the TH symbols, when the 'thistle' and 'then' samples you gave require your tongue to do very differnt things. Not that I am advocating any changes or elaborations to the English language, as it is diverse enough. And I had never heard the origins of YE before. Thanks!
Thanks also for the explanation of steorarum. I suddenly felt like my computer was this small room that I was piloting through the ether of the Internet. For a split second there I felt like another Han Solo and waited for my office to blur into hyper-space. Unfortunately it didn't.
I did a bit of rearranging of the topics for this class, and week after next we'll do Paganism and Christianity, since there is obviously interest in the topic. (This is a highly flexible class).
And CathyL: first, Spousal Units and Internal or External Financial Advisors can be appeased by your doing research on the Internet. There really is a mind-boggling wealth of Beowulfiana on the Web, free.
No disrespect of Tolkien is taken from your last comment. I find looking at Tolkien's sources makes me respect him even more!
Zauber
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Message 14 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/30/2002 6:34 AM
P.S. Cathy, if you want to start a Thread on Order/Chaos and Fate, please do so. I view my role here more as a facilitator than an expert, and have no problems with this being a cooperative venture. Although apples placed on my desk will be appreciated!
Seriously, everybody who is reading Beowulf will come at the text from slightly different (or even vastly different) viewpoints, and this can only add to the fun and learning.
Zauber
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Message 15 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/30/2002 9:45 PM
Zauber -
I'm not sure if I was clear on the thorn/eth question or not. The bottom line is that the symbols are essentially interchangeable in OE. Another interesting fact is that the Anglo-Saxons, through missionaries, actually exported the OE alphabet into Scandinavia, thus Icelandic adopted the English characters thorn & eth, and still uses them today, even though English itself lost them sometime after the Norman invasion! And the 'international phonetic alphabet' also uses these characters.
For those who have some money left in their Beowulf-funds yet, or for some future time, one Beowulf-related book I highly recommend is:
A Beowulf Handbook. R.E. Bjork & J.D. Niles, eds. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1997.
This book has quite a number of chapters, each written by someone who works on that particular aspect of Beowulf, such as 'Christianity & Paganism', 'Dating of Beowulf', 'Historical Elements', 'Allegory', &c. Each chapter has an extensive set of references to prior work, which makes it a great reference source, particularly if one is interested to read criticism on a particular aspect of the poem. I can recomend other books, articles if anyone has some particular interest, &c.
cheers,
B.
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Message 16 of 31 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 11/4/2002 2:42 AM
I've got some questions about translation.
l. 994 the word "sigwondroushts" shows up in the modern English. Chickering translates the phrase in question as "marvelous treasures." I'd love to hear about the problems with this.
l. 370 has 'armageddon-fighters' where Chickering uses 'chiefs'. 'Armageddon' seems to be a Christian-loaded word. I can't find any origin for it except Biblical.
ll. 168-9 suggest kennings to me. Hrothgar himself could be called the 'gift throne' since gifts are part of how he keeps the throne. And since Grendel gets no treasure why should he respect it? I realize the the Anglo-Saxon may very well not conform to my poetic choices (I like Heaney on these particular lines). And Hrothgar was the 'maker' of Heorot.
l. 454 "she" is used to refer to Fate. In other places, fate's a he and in Chickering, Fate's an it. And God and fate wind up in the same line in places (e.g. l. 1055). So I'd like to hear more about this. Also about the word 'metode' which at 169 is translated as 'maker' and elsewhere as god.
Cheers
Cathy
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Message 1 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/19/2002 6:53 PM
Wesað ge eall hal!
I'm the 'cyber-editor' of Beowulf on Steorarume and so I would welcome any comments, suggestions, &c. on my edition of 'Beowulf'.
A few comments which may or may not be helpful - I see the other editions recommended are Heaney's & Breedon's cyber-edition. Heaney's version is good, though Seamus takes some poetic liberties here and there. I don't care much for Breedon's to be honest. In paper-form, I would also recommend H. Chickering's edition and possibly D. Porter's word-for-word translation if you want the next step between my edition and actually reading the Old English. Also online, though alas not yet complete, is a very nice translation by Tim Romano available at www.aimsdata.com/tim/beowulf_trans.htm I also highly recommend Syd Allan's site www.jagular.com/beowulf/, which has such things as comparisons between different translations of Beowulf.
At Syd's site there are some selected recordings of Beowulf in Old English - if anyone is interested in a full recording of Beowulf in Old English, _Chaucer Studios_ just released a very nice dramatic recording, with different speakers for the the different characters, narrator, &c. Chaucer Studios homepage is: humanities.byu.edu/Chaucer/. Unfortunately, they do not yet list the Dramatic Beowulf recording in the online catalogue. But one may send a cheque for US$20, including postage, made in favour of 'The Chaucer Studio' to:
Prof. Paul R. Thomas
Dept. of English
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602-6218
USA
For orders outside the USA and other questions you should contact Dr. Thomas: paul_thomas@byu.edu
--B. Slade
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Message 2 of 31 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 10/21/2002 4:57 AM
Dear Slade, welcome to TR. I am enjoying your site tremendously. Thank you for your work. Thanks, also, for the links you provided. Unfortunately, all I've been able to do so far is skim both Beowulf sites. I especially want to thank you for the link to Chaucer Studios. I love listening to Old English. I am trying to learn the language through U of Calgary, however, I am now hopelessly behind for this semester.
I hope you enjoy your time here with us and hope to learn much from your insights. ---DA
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Message 3 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/22/2002 6:26 AM
Slade! Welcome to Tolkien's Ring! How did you find us, and find out I was using your translation of Beowulf? I intended to contact you at some point, just to express my appreciation of all the work you have done, and how good your site is. I have been researching Beowulf looking for sites to use in this study, and yours certainly seemed both comprehensive and accessible.
I too don't care for Breedon's translation that much, but some people here wanted an easy prose translation that would take less time to read. I have poked around in Syd Allen's site, and will check out Tim Romano's and the Chaucer Studios site. Thanks!
Zauber
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Message 4 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/22/2002 9:06 AM
Zauber & DaleAnn-
Thanks for the welcome. I found the Beowulf study on the Tolkien ring because I have a counter which shows me from whence hits to my site originate.
Breedon's translatation is the equivalent of 'Cliff's Notes' in my opinion, and he also cuts out some sections.
Thanks for the compliments on Beowulf on Steorarume - it's gratifying to know that people find the site useful and enjoyable - it is the product of many hundreds of hours of work! And I'm still adding more of course.
I'll be happy to try to answer any Beowulfian (Beowulfish?) questions as time allows.
best,
B. Slade
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Message 5 of 31 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/26/2002 8:44 PM
First and foremost, thank you very much for posting your work on the net. The supplementary materials and glosses are extremely helpful too.
I have two questions about translation. At line 188, "Nirvana" is used. I don't understand that word used in conjunction with seeking a (Christian) god after death. Or are the Lord and Father referred to the king. I checked Breeden, and he might be fun, but he's no help. Heaney gives "Blessed is he who after death/can approach the Lord/and find friendship in the Father's embrace." (I have Chickering on the way). I'll do some more comparison of versions at jagular (great site), but I thought you might have a quick answer.
At line 315, "dacoits" is used. Why not something like "robbers" which is what I found in the OED?
Thanks very much for your help.
Cheers,
Cathy
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Message 6 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/26/2002 9:21 PM
Cathy -
You've picked up on two of my 'Indianisms'.
First, 'Nirvana' (l. 188) [which is actually literally means 'blown out' in Sanskrit, as in a candle flame]. Two reasons - the first is probably a bit naughty and that is this 'subverts' the "Christian" interpretation. I don't think, despite the received knowledge of the moment, that _Beowulf_ is in any meaningful way (or historical way) a 'Christian' poem. Lines 170ff. are puzzling to me. Many think they're an interpolation not present in the 'original' text (whatever that might mean) - I checked Romano's translation and he simply omits ll.180-189 altogether. I'm hesistant to start 'crossing out' bits of the poem, but I believe either (1) they're unoriginal, thus I am quite happy to 'subvert' them or, (2), they are original, but are not actually 'Christian' and thus 'Nirvana' works well to 'block' a 'Christian' reading.
The second reason is a bit more sound perhaps, and that is that OE 'freoðo' is hard to translate. Heaney's "friendship" is OK, but not a very literal rendering. 'freoðo' or 'frið' is probably usually rendered as "peace" and is often used in the Chronicles when a treaty was made (temporarily!) with the Vikings. It is also used in refer to 'un-outlawing' an outlaw and additionally has the senses of "tranquility", "security", "refuge". So the most literal rendering in this context, attempting to capture the full range of nuances, might be "tranquil and secure refuge-peace" or the like. Or maybe "blissful refuge", as a less awkward phrase. I think you might see how I felt 'Nirvana' to be a decent rendering for a notion like "blissful refuge".
But, to answer your other question - yes, Lord and Father refer to some deity or other - I've tried to always capitalise words referring to 'God' in my translation.
'dacoits' (l.319) [from Hindi 'dakait', "member of a robber band or gang; bandit"] I don't have as satisfying of an explanation for. The OE is 'wrað werod', literally something like "hostile army" or "hostile host". But I think both "army" and "host" imply a rather more organised group of men than what I believe the poem intends. Romano has "invaders" but that is going beyond what the poem actually says. "Robbers" isn't really the meaning, "bandits" [from Italian 'bandito', "to band together"] is probably closer, "brigands" [also from Italian, 'brigante', deriving from 'brigare', "to fight"] is probably better. But I chose 'dacoits', which is more or less the same thing as "brigands", but in my mind (and maybe only in my mind!) implies something a bit nastier.
hope this helps,
cheers,
-Ben
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Message 7 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/28/2002 7:50 AM
CathyL, very good observations of Tolkien's use of Old English words to create names of characters that we are familiar with. To me, it means next time I read about Beorn, I will think 'warrior', which gives an added depth to him. All of your observations 'hold up' quite nicely! Keep skimming -- there's more to come! This is an example of what I meant by Tolkien's work being steeped in Beowulf.
Slade -- I stumbled upon the thorn and eth symbols when we read a book about Tolkien written by Tom Shippey. Can you explain why there are two symbols that mean the same thing? Or is there a finer distiction between them?
I also wanted to ask if you have read Tolkien and are a 'fan'? It is a real bonus having you present for this study.
Zauber
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Message 8 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/28/2002 8:17 AM
KathyL and Slade, very nice stuff here! I slipped right past Nirvana, but did have to look up dacoits. I fleetingly wondered how the Anglo-Saxons knew about them, but didn't stop to ponder further. So it's interesting to see that you KathyL picked that up.
I had no idea Nirvana translated as 'blown out'. What a vivid image!
There will be a thread starting in early November about Christianity and paganism, and it will be interesting to enlarge upon the question of whether Beowulf is Christian, Pagan, or Pagan interpreted by Christians. So I am intrigued by your approach Slade, of blocking a Christian reading.
I liked the phrase 'un-outlawing an outlaw" and can't resisit: wouldn't that make an un-outlawed outlaw an in-law?
A more serious question:How is Steorarume translated? How did you come up with an Old English version of CYBER?
Zaube
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Message 9 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/28/2002 9:39 PM
Actually, thinking about it, 'Beorn'--though I'm sure Tolkien must have also had in mind OE 'beorn' (warrior, man)--is probably primarily derived from ON. 'björn' (bear), considering Beorn's shape-shifting nature...
Thorn (Þ or þ) and eth (Ð or ð) don't 'mean' anything different. That is, they both stand for the same sound (or, sounds). Usually they sound like the 'th' of 'thistle', unless they stand between two vowels (or, more precisely, between two voiced segments, which includes more than just vowels, but is a bit complicated to explain unless one has a basic background in linguistics/phonetics), in which case they sound like the 'th' of 'them' (there's a similar alternation in modern English plurals, cp. cat-s [=cats] v. dog-s [=dogz] ).
Why are there two different letters? Good question - the basic answer, so far as I know, is that they are independent developments. Many early manuscripts simply use d in place of either thorn or eth, and only later do scribes begin adding the stroke to the d which makes it into an ð (in OE script, both 'd' & eth have a curved tail - only difference is the cross-stroke). The thorn developed out of the runic script, as did the form for 'w' in OE script (called 'wynn', from the rune of the same name, also looks sort of like a 'funny "p"'). It's also sort of like the two different forms of sigma in Greek, one for the end of words and one for other places, or like 'long-s' in renaissance printing - purely orthographic conventions. There are some patterns: thorn has a tendency to occur at the beginnings of words, and eth at the ends of words - but these are only tendencies and frequently one sees the opposite. By the bye, the ahistoric 'ye' (of 'ye olde shoppe) is actually a misinterpreted thorn - so it was never 'ye', but always 'the' (or 'þe').
Yes, I do enjoy Tolkien's writing - my mother read 'The Hobbit' to me as a child, and I read both the Hobbit & LoTR as a young child, and have reread both many times since.
cheers, B.
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Message 10 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/28/2002 10:09 PM
Zaube-
'Steorarum' ("Cyberspace") is from Prof. Berkhout's 'Circolwyrde Wordhord' (computer word-hoard) page ( www.u.arizona.edu/%7Ectb/wordhord.html ). It's literally 'steora' (pilot[ed], "steer[ed]") 'rum' (space, "room"), for 'cyber-' means something like "human-controlled" (thus 'piloted'). If modern English didn't form tech. words off of Latinate/Graeco words, then 'cyberspace' in modern English would be something like 'Steer-room' (or, probably, 'star-room', like 'starboard').
Yes, I'll happy to discuss the 'Christian' v. 'pagan' question later on (one of the most discussed aspects of the poem!). I'm actually giving a paper at the next Anglo-Saxonist meeting entitled '…þrym gefrunon, …helle gemundon : Indogermanic shruti and Christian smriti in the Epistomology of Beowulf<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> ' (shruti & smriti are Sanskrit terms, once again!) which makes what I think is an interesting argument for a 'pagan' Beowulf poem. When we get to it, I'll also outline the 'received position' of the 20th-c. on the poem's 'pervasive Christianity', and some more interesting variants of the same idea.
cheers,
--B.
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Message 11 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/28/2002 10:12 PM
actually, '<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft.com:office:office:/> <o:p> </o:p>' is not part of the title, but rubbish that msn seems to have put in when I cut & paste the title...
--B.
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Message 12 of 31 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 10/29/2002 10:15 PM
Glad you sent the update. I thought you'd won the prize for the most obscure title ever , but I find it soooooo difficult to believe that MSN could have messed anything up.
Your comments have been lots of help. I can hardly wait to get into the issues of a pagan/Christian Beowulf. Right now I'm thinking about Order/Chaos and Fate in the poem. I have promised my spousal unit I will buy no more books for awhile so anything you can relate about the current state of scholarship on Beowulf is highly welcome (I don't get out much).
This is turning out to be much more fun than I expected and very interesting apart from JRRT, no disrespect intended.
Cathy
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Message 13 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/30/2002 6:08 AM
I'll bet Tolkien was tickled pink to come up with Beorn for that character's name, and derived it from both sources to mean "Warrior Bear". It's a play on words, which Tolkien really enjoyed. And it is perfect! (At some point I want to do a collection of Tolkien's word-plays and puns).
Thanks, Slade, for your explanation of thorn and eth. I am going to keep a copy of that handy for when I read Tom Shippey"s "Author of the Centruy" again, as I found it confusing. Now I won't. It is interesing to me that we have only the TH symbols, when the 'thistle' and 'then' samples you gave require your tongue to do very differnt things. Not that I am advocating any changes or elaborations to the English language, as it is diverse enough. And I had never heard the origins of YE before. Thanks!
Thanks also for the explanation of steorarum. I suddenly felt like my computer was this small room that I was piloting through the ether of the Internet. For a split second there I felt like another Han Solo and waited for my office to blur into hyper-space. Unfortunately it didn't.
I did a bit of rearranging of the topics for this class, and week after next we'll do Paganism and Christianity, since there is obviously interest in the topic. (This is a highly flexible class).
And CathyL: first, Spousal Units and Internal or External Financial Advisors can be appeased by your doing research on the Internet. There really is a mind-boggling wealth of Beowulfiana on the Web, free.
No disrespect of Tolkien is taken from your last comment. I find looking at Tolkien's sources makes me respect him even more!
Zauber
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Message 14 of 31 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 10/30/2002 6:34 AM
P.S. Cathy, if you want to start a Thread on Order/Chaos and Fate, please do so. I view my role here more as a facilitator than an expert, and have no problems with this being a cooperative venture. Although apples placed on my desk will be appreciated!
Seriously, everybody who is reading Beowulf will come at the text from slightly different (or even vastly different) viewpoints, and this can only add to the fun and learning.
Zauber
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Message 15 of 31 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 10/30/2002 9:45 PM
Zauber -
I'm not sure if I was clear on the thorn/eth question or not. The bottom line is that the symbols are essentially interchangeable in OE. Another interesting fact is that the Anglo-Saxons, through missionaries, actually exported the OE alphabet into Scandinavia, thus Icelandic adopted the English characters thorn & eth, and still uses them today, even though English itself lost them sometime after the Norman invasion! And the 'international phonetic alphabet' also uses these characters.
For those who have some money left in their Beowulf-funds yet, or for some future time, one Beowulf-related book I highly recommend is:
A Beowulf Handbook. R.E. Bjork & J.D. Niles, eds. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1997.
This book has quite a number of chapters, each written by someone who works on that particular aspect of Beowulf, such as 'Christianity & Paganism', 'Dating of Beowulf', 'Historical Elements', 'Allegory', &c. Each chapter has an extensive set of references to prior work, which makes it a great reference source, particularly if one is interested to read criticism on a particular aspect of the poem. I can recomend other books, articles if anyone has some particular interest, &c.
cheers,
B.
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Message 16 of 31 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 11/4/2002 2:42 AM
I've got some questions about translation.
l. 994 the word "sigwondroushts" shows up in the modern English. Chickering translates the phrase in question as "marvelous treasures." I'd love to hear about the problems with this.
l. 370 has 'armageddon-fighters' where Chickering uses 'chiefs'. 'Armageddon' seems to be a Christian-loaded word. I can't find any origin for it except Biblical.
ll. 168-9 suggest kennings to me. Hrothgar himself could be called the 'gift throne' since gifts are part of how he keeps the throne. And since Grendel gets no treasure why should he respect it? I realize the the Anglo-Saxon may very well not conform to my poetic choices (I like Heaney on these particular lines). And Hrothgar was the 'maker' of Heorot.
l. 454 "she" is used to refer to Fate. In other places, fate's a he and in Chickering, Fate's an it. And God and fate wind up in the same line in places (e.g. l. 1055). So I'd like to hear more about this. Also about the word 'metode' which at 169 is translated as 'maker' and elsewhere as god.
Cheers
Cathy