Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 13:04:09 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Lines 709-1064
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Message 1 of 7 in Discussion
From: Zauber (Original Message)
Sent: 11/6/2002 6:30 AM
Within the story of Beowulf, there are what I am calling embedded stories. (Subplots, inserts). These are digressions from the central action, usually speaking of some past event or other people. These stories can be irritating or confusing, but usually they refect upon or comment on the present action, or serve as a warning, a foreshadowing of future events.
Since Beowulf was originally an oral story, it was created and grew in a spoken tradition before ever being written down. One commentator said that the listeners were familiar with these embedded stories, yet I wonder if these digressions weren't also a "history lesson" of sorts. It may be interesting to note any other aspects demonstrating that Beowulf was an oral tale -- things that would most likely have been different if the story was originally written down.
We can discuss these embedded stories as they come up, but I want to give one example from this weeks Lines. The story of Sigemund and the dragon is used as a counterpoint to Beowulf's current heroism, the killing of Grendel, and is also used as a foreshadowing -- in the future Beowulf will face his own dragon. As we proceed, notice how other embedded stories create the same kind of phenomenon, and also how they create a wierd distortion of time.
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Message 2 of 7 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/6/2002 6:37 AM
Extra Credit Assignment:
Look at www.gretchenle.com/beowulf/bg5thumb.html
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Message 3 of 7 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 11/7/2002 11:17 AM
First thoughts: I'm not yet convinced that there is a wierd distortion of time, though it feels that way reading it in the 21st century. But a common modern literary device is the flashback. And mostly that's not confusing. But in Beowulf, the incidents are not flashbacks but totally separate tales. Hmmm The listener of the poem's time may not have felt a distortion. It seems to me that both the inserted stories function to contrast good with evil.
Cathy
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Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 11/7/2002 12:45 PM
I wonder if since this was a tale told first by word of mouth and then applied to text, if we perhaps miss a bit of the style of the author. Maybe the inserted tales are others hearing the story speaking up and saying: "Just like...." And since we weren't there for the penning of this tale or do we have a known author can we truely determine if these tales are inserted allegory by the author/storyteller or if they are added by the writer to confirm the tale's message.
I want to look into these inserted tales a bit more as well and see if there is more to them.
Great study Zauber, and Slade your links rock!
Namárië,
Iarwain
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Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/7/2002 10:27 PM
Marijane Osborne has an interesting article, reprinted I think in A Beowulf reader, called 'The Great Feud', in which she points out that many of the 'embedded stories' have no obvious endings. that is, it is not entirely clear where a mini-story 'fades back' into the main plot. For instance, the 'Genesis' mini-tale is usually taken to end at l. 98 ('..for each of the species which lives and moves') and the next line taken to refer to Hrothgar & the Danes, but, if the mini-tale implies Eden, or an edenic beginning, then the following lines ('So the lord's men lived in joys, happily, until one began to execute atrocities, a fiend in hell;') may be ambiguous between the Danes and the Adam & Eve in Eden (i.e. they lived happily until a 'fiend' [the serpent] had them eat from the tree of knowledge of good & evil). And the Finnsburh lay she analyses similarly if I recall rightly.
--B.
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Message 6 of 7 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/8/2002 8:24 AM
I have noticed I had difficulty with some of the embedded stories, not being really clear when they began and when ended. I figured it was a convention of the way things were written, such as old manuscripts not having paragraphs and other aspects that clue us (contemporary readers) in to what is happening.
I am going to have to see if the Beowulf reader is availbale at the library! Thanks!
Zauber
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Message 7 of 7 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 12/30/2002 11:09 PM
At first I was afraid to confess that the Sigemund insert confused me, especially since I have seen this type of embedded story in Bible passages before. Zauber, your extra-credit link was helpful and entertaining - thanks! Slade, your explanation especially made me feel a little better about being confused.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 7 in Discussion
From: Zauber (Original Message)
Sent: 11/6/2002 6:30 AM
Within the story of Beowulf, there are what I am calling embedded stories. (Subplots, inserts). These are digressions from the central action, usually speaking of some past event or other people. These stories can be irritating or confusing, but usually they refect upon or comment on the present action, or serve as a warning, a foreshadowing of future events.
Since Beowulf was originally an oral story, it was created and grew in a spoken tradition before ever being written down. One commentator said that the listeners were familiar with these embedded stories, yet I wonder if these digressions weren't also a "history lesson" of sorts. It may be interesting to note any other aspects demonstrating that Beowulf was an oral tale -- things that would most likely have been different if the story was originally written down.
We can discuss these embedded stories as they come up, but I want to give one example from this weeks Lines. The story of Sigemund and the dragon is used as a counterpoint to Beowulf's current heroism, the killing of Grendel, and is also used as a foreshadowing -- in the future Beowulf will face his own dragon. As we proceed, notice how other embedded stories create the same kind of phenomenon, and also how they create a wierd distortion of time.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 7 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/6/2002 6:37 AM
Extra Credit Assignment:
Look at www.gretchenle.com/beowulf/bg5thumb.html
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 7 in Discussion
From: CathyL
Sent: 11/7/2002 11:17 AM
First thoughts: I'm not yet convinced that there is a wierd distortion of time, though it feels that way reading it in the 21st century. But a common modern literary device is the flashback. And mostly that's not confusing. But in Beowulf, the incidents are not flashbacks but totally separate tales. Hmmm The listener of the poem's time may not have felt a distortion. It seems to me that both the inserted stories function to contrast good with evil.
Cathy
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 11/7/2002 12:45 PM
I wonder if since this was a tale told first by word of mouth and then applied to text, if we perhaps miss a bit of the style of the author. Maybe the inserted tales are others hearing the story speaking up and saying: "Just like...." And since we weren't there for the penning of this tale or do we have a known author can we truely determine if these tales are inserted allegory by the author/storyteller or if they are added by the writer to confirm the tale's message.
I want to look into these inserted tales a bit more as well and see if there is more to them.
Great study Zauber, and Slade your links rock!
Namárië,
Iarwain
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 11/7/2002 10:27 PM
Marijane Osborne has an interesting article, reprinted I think in A Beowulf reader, called 'The Great Feud', in which she points out that many of the 'embedded stories' have no obvious endings. that is, it is not entirely clear where a mini-story 'fades back' into the main plot. For instance, the 'Genesis' mini-tale is usually taken to end at l. 98 ('..for each of the species which lives and moves') and the next line taken to refer to Hrothgar & the Danes, but, if the mini-tale implies Eden, or an edenic beginning, then the following lines ('So the lord's men lived in joys, happily, until one began to execute atrocities, a fiend in hell;') may be ambiguous between the Danes and the Adam & Eve in Eden (i.e. they lived happily until a 'fiend' [the serpent] had them eat from the tree of knowledge of good & evil). And the Finnsburh lay she analyses similarly if I recall rightly.
--B.
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 7 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 11/8/2002 8:24 AM
I have noticed I had difficulty with some of the embedded stories, not being really clear when they began and when ended. I figured it was a convention of the way things were written, such as old manuscripts not having paragraphs and other aspects that clue us (contemporary readers) in to what is happening.
I am going to have to see if the Beowulf reader is availbale at the library! Thanks!
Zauber
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 7 in Discussion
From: sparrow
Sent: 12/30/2002 11:09 PM
At first I was afraid to confess that the Sigemund insert confused me, especially since I have seen this type of embedded story in Bible passages before. Zauber, your extra-credit link was helpful and entertaining - thanks! Slade, your explanation especially made me feel a little better about being confused.