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Post by Stormrider on Jan 15, 2009 20:14:30 GMT -6
From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 3/16/2003 9:58 PM | | John Noble as Denethor | Ian McKellen as Gandalf |
I would like us to follow the relationship between Gandalf and Denethor. Their relationship seems to change during the course of Book 5. As we read through this Book, I would like us to take note of: What emotions do they display toward the other? Friendliness, happiness, fear, caution, suspicion, tolerance Do they respect each other? Do they value each other's ideas, opinions, suggestions? What similarities and differences do they have? Please don't limit the discussion to these questions. If you see any other aspects of their relationship as we read, please mention it here! Stormrider
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 15, 2009 20:16:14 GMT -6
From: Merlin the mad Sent: 3/17/2003 4:11 PM Denethor distrusts Gandalf's motives with good reason: Saruman's treachery is well-known, so why trust another wizard who always suggests policies which seem to divide his sons? Denethor is corrupted in his knowledge by using the Palantir: but his main weakness is his distrust of the Wizards and the suspicion that any heir they put forward must be a fraud - as the stewards have not believed for a long, long time, that any heir of Isildur remains alive. The tradition of waiting for the return of an heir is an empty ceremony to them. MtM
* * * From: Ruscosenda Sent: 3/17/2003 7:38 PM There is some wonderful background information about Denethor in Appendix A, near the end of Section IV. It discusses the time Aragorn served Ecthelion, Denethor's father, using an assumed name of Thorongil. Thorongil had much influence with Ecthelion and led the forces of Gondor to victory over Umbar. The people, including Denethor, began to see him as a possible successor to Ecthelion, although he never took this upon himself. After the defeat of Umber, he left immediately without returning to Minas Tirith. When he heard Pippin's news about Aragorn, he started putting things together. He was always suspicious of Gandalf, but now he was certain that he was conspiring replace him with this "ranger". Another angle, could be that Denethor was jealous of the relationship between Gandalf and Faramir. Even though Boromir was his "favorite", Faramir was the one most like him. Denethor was not fond of Wizards and when he saw his son becoming more like Gandalf than himself, he became envious When Faramir sided with Gandalf, it infuriated Denethor because he should side with his own father - not some Wizard. -- Rusco * * * From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 8:13 PM MTM - I am not sure that Saruman's treachery was so well known that we can conclude that Denethor was motivated by his distrust of all wizards. Saruman acted only against the Rohan before being defeated by the ents. In fact, Gandalf actually chides Denethor for his disinterest in the events that have occurred. "Is is naught to you" Gandalf says to Denethor "that Theoden has fought a great battle, and that Isengard is overthrown, and that I have broken the staff of Saruman?" Denethor merely dismisses Gandalf's total news as things he already knows. It appears that Denethor's problem is with one specific wizard, a grey one. * * * From: LindaS Sent: 3/17/2003 8:35 PM Denethor seems like a strange and dangerous mixture of knowledge and recklessness. He would hold the Ring, knowing full well the danger, he talks dismissively to his only remaining son when that son could be going off to die, and he tries to alienate Gandalf whose power could aid him in the war against the east. What do you think? Linda
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 15, 2009 20:17:50 GMT -6
From: Fosco Baggins Sent: 3/18/2003 6:50 PM It says something to the strength of Denethor, that he maintained as well as he did after using the palantir. A person who was less noble and strong, surely could have caused much damage to Gondor. It makes the fall of such a man that more tragic. It also increases the stature of Aragorn, as the true heir and owner of the palantiri, that he was able to rest it to his will. One wonders how things would have turned out if Denethor had not used the stone. F * * * From: LindaS Sent: 3/18/2003 11:33 PM Fosco, good point. Gandalf says that the "blood of Westernesse" runs true in Denethor. When he first sees Denethor Pippin's reaction is that Denethor reminds him more of Aragorn than of Boromir. So it would follow that Denethor would have strength similar to Aragorn's. But even Aragorn knew better than to try using the palantir more than once, and he admitted that the one time took most of his strength. Denethor uses it countless times. Another example of Denthor's recklessness? Your thoughts? * * * From: Stormrider Sent: 3/19/2003 7:26 AM Perhaps we need to compare Denethor and Saruman for a moment, too. The first time they used their palantir and found Sauron on the other end of it may have been a surprise to them since most of the palantir were missing or lost. Did they even suspect that Sauron might have it when they first looked in their palantir? After discovering Sauron, why did both of them feel they could use the palantir and handle a confrontation with Sauron? And more than once! And notice how Gandalf avoided as much contact as possible with the palantir that he took from Pippin and gave to Aragorn. To me, Gandalf is much wiser than either Denethor and Saruman and realized that such contact with Sauron would be too much of a test. Aragorn only used it once to let Sauron know he was there to challenge him (and I believe to steer Sauron's eye away from Mordor and Frodo). Stormrider * * * From: LindaS Sent: 3/19/2003 10:04 AM Denethor and Saruman - another comparison. Saruman's motivation seems relatively simple - lust for the ring - compared to Denethor. What was Denethor looking for? A way to prevent the king's return?? Is Denethor merely driven by grief for Boromir's loss? Does he act out of hatred of Gandalf? Has Denethor now been so warped by using the palantir and by Sauron that we simply can't tell?
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Post by Stormrider on Jan 15, 2009 20:19:44 GMT -6
From: Artemis Sent: 3/19/2003 3:03 PM In Middle Earth, over and over there is the theme, more is less, less is more. Denethor uses the palantir because he is the Steward (look at me, I am the man). I think he uses it because he thinks he is entitled to use it. He thinks he is as good as any 'king'. Pure bravado. He is also of the opinion that he could handle keeping the ring in his care. (I know better than you fools). On the other hand, Gandolf, is always understating his true position and true power. He doesn't seem to lust after ruling and domination. He is cautious about using and revealing his power and wouldn't dare to try his hand at world domination via the power of the ring. The same goes for Aragorn who seems ever reluctant to assert his rights to the throne. He is too busy getting to business to worry about being focused on pomp and circumstance. I think he uses the palantir more out of necessity than out of greed or a sense of supremacy. Saruman was more like Denethor in that he thought he could handle it and "why shouldn't we use it?" The power hungry and greedy always seem to fail in the end and the meek and unassuming succeed against all odds....
Artemis * * * From: LindaS Sent: 3/19/2003 4:15 PM Very good points, Artemis. You may also place Faramir along side Gandalf and Aragorn in that regard. He does not seek personal recognition in warfare, and he realistically and intelligently forebears the One Ring. Wisdom seems to be found in humbly acknowledging your limitations. * * * From: Artemis Sent: 3/19/2003 5:50 PM Wow LindaS, I can't believe I missed Faramir because he is my FAVORITE! Shame on me.... You are right about him. And in the contrast between Faramir and Boromir you can certainly see this whole theme demonstrated. Artemis * * * From: sparrow Sent: 3/27/2003 11:57 AM Denethor seems to be influenced by bitterness. He does not believe an heir will return, and he resents him and his line being relegated to the role of a mere steward after having served so faithfully and thanklessly (perhaps, in his eyes) for so many years. He may feel like he has earned the right to become king. My impression of Denethor and Gandalf sizing each other up at Gandalf's arrival was that of two cats circling each other, about to fight.
Reckless is a good word, Linda S. However, I am confused by your post #6 - on the one hand you seem to suggest Denethor did not know about Saruman, then you conclude by saying, "Denethor merely dismisses Gandalf's total news as things he already knows." Am I missing something?
On Denethor and Saruman - their use of the Palantir reminds me remotely of drug addiction. And Gandalf's avoidance of the Palantir reminds me of Stonewall Jackson's (sorry, just saw Gods and Generals and read a biography) attitude toward liquor - he said he didn't drink it because he liked the taste of it so much. Artemis, good point on Denethor's reasons for using the Palantir. Hadn't Boromir said something to the effect of, "How long must a steward remain a steward when the king does not return?" And you said, The power hungry and greedy always seem to fail in the end and the meek and unassuming succeed against all odds.... which reminds me that the meek shall inherit the earth LindaS: Faramir. . .realistically and intelligently forebears the One Ring Not in the movie, unfortunately. . .Grrrrr * * * From: LindaS Sent: 3/27/2003 3:59 PM Hi, sparrow. What I was trying to show in post #6 was that Denethor said he knew about Saruman but seemed unconcerned about him, something that Gandalf was rebuking him for. I was pointing this out as showing that Denethor was not motivated by a dislike of wizards in general, but that he had specific contentions with Gandalf. The words of Boromir that you mention are very interesting, because it comes from Faramir recalling a conversation between his brother and his father,which he relate to Frodo in the TT chapter "Window on the West." As children, Boromir asks his father how many "hundreds of years" before a Steward becomes a king, if the king does not return. Denethor answers "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty. In Gondor, ten thousand years would not suffice." So what Denethor is saying that the faithful Stewards would never claim the kingship. The man who said this is the same one we are considering here, who is broken and bitter in his Stewardship. How much he has changed since he spoke these words to his young children. Is it only Boromir's death that has changed him. What else? I find this fascinating. Linda
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