Post by Andorinha on Jan 15, 2009 21:58:48 GMT -6
Beowulf ARCHIVE: Grendel
______________________________________________
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Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/19/2002 5:50 PM
He deserves his own subject thread, I think.
By the way, I'll no longer apologize for being so far behind. It's all Tolkien's fault, anyway. Boy, start out with one book, Lord of the Rings, and you find yourself enthralled with Norse and Celtic myth, Beowulf and other of Tolkien's influences, a little Old English, other fantasy tales.... It never ends. (But I love it!)
Two things about Grendel's death surprised me. First, Beowulf didn't kill him. Certainly, he gave him a mortal wound, but Grendel not only didn't die directly from Beowulf's attack, but, well, drowned himself -- committed suicide. Or is this not considered suicide in those times? Could it have been done this way to show what a coward Grendel is?
Maybe I'm trying to understand a thousand-year-old story with a 21st century mind.
I was expecting a hero who kills an ogre, and a monster who can be defeated with more than just strength and courage.
Instead, we get a hero who doesn't directly kill Grendel, who uses only great courage and physical strength to defeat (but not kill) him. There's no skill, no cunning. Just brute strength. Grab him and hold on.
Was anyone else disappointed?
Diana
________________________________________________
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Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/19/2002 5:52 PM
And I meant to add at the end that the monster turns out to be a craven coward when he meets his match. This horror who's terrorized Hrothgar's people for 12 years just turns tail and runs away. Then he doesn't even wait for death, but drowns himself. What a wuss!
Diana
__________________________________________
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Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/19/2002 5:55 PM
I read that people of the time 'Beowulf' was written understood Grendel to be Satan himself. I thought he was a son of Cain.
Can he be both? What's the deal?
Diana
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/20/2002 12:25 AM
What a difference a second (okay, and third) reading makes.
I take back what I said about being disappointed about Beowulf not directly killing Grendel and Grendel drowning himself. (Though I still think both are discussion-worthy).
What a heart-rending, dramatic, nightmarish piece of writing! How bone-chilling it must've been for those men to wake up to find Grendel's arm -- the one that slaughtered so many of their people -- hanging from Heorot's ceiling. Somehow it's more creepy than finding his whole body laying on the floor. That there was no body left -- just an arm hanging down and bloody 'foot'prints -- keeps the legend going. It makes the whole 12-year episode almost surreal.
And how appropriate that it was by Beowulf's very arm (and hand) *only* that Grendel was mortally wounded.
The description of Grendel walking into the mere to die is almost enough to stir a tiny bit of pity for him. Pure gothic horror.
Even in translation, this is an incredible piece of writing. I never expected such a gruesome horror story.
Diana
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/22/2002 5:13 PM
I sure hope words aren't fattening because I've been eating a lot of them lately -- my own!
Grendel did not commit suicide by going into the pool. He was going home to die. Maybe say a last good-bye to mumsy.
A kinder, gentler Beowulf? His head seems to have deflated when he learns of the existence of Grendel's mother. No boasting this time, and he accepts the possibility of death.
And what I wrote about Beowulf being all brawn and bravery? Here we see wrestling going on. And he has the quickness of mind and the cunning, in the midst of a life-or-death battle, to eye the giant's sword after the one Unferth gave him was unable to penetrate Mumsy's hide.
Maybe there's a process or slow discovery here of Beowulf's qualities and character. I wonder what kind of king he'll make.
Diana
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 12/22/2002 10:12 PM
Also, Beowulf has a number of droll lines (macabre humour), not to mention his speeches, so he's certainly not just brawn.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/23/2002 7:21 AM
A very pleasing thread here, getting to see you experience the joy of discovery as you read! Beowulf is a satisfyingly complex character, not simply a testosterone-driven hero, as his first entrance would seem.
This may turn out to be a Neverending Study! And yes, it is easy to get sidetracked, although I bet the sidetracks will add to our overall knowledge. I myself have stumbled into World History, wanting to know a bit more about the Anglo-Saxons, and then getting carried away, both forwards and backwards in time. Plus I've been amassing Northern sagas, etc. to peruse. What else have you been reading and what editions/translations?
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/24/2002 4:05 AM
Slade, many thanks for being so generous with your knowledge -- on
your website and in answering questions.
I haven't caught any humor, macabre or otherwise, from Beowulf yet.
I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm getting the sense that "Beowulf" requires
more than one reading!
Diana
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/24/2002 4:46 AM
Zauber, I've been using Heaney and Raffel, and occasionally (sorry!)
Slade's. As for study guides, just the usual suspects: Cliffs Notes,
Monarch and SparkNotes. And yes, it's sinking in that Beowulf (book
and character) is about a lot more than guts and glory.
Have you gotten into the Icelandic sagas? Any suggestions as to
where to start? There're so many, it's overwhelming.
Norse myths, I've only started with Crossley-Holland's collection. I
bought both Eddas and the Saga of the Volsangs (not Norse, but...), but
haven't read them yet. Celtic, well, I've started with King Arthur -- that's
what I've been reading lately, especially about Parzival -- and plan to
work my way from there.
There's an anthology of short stories relating to King Arthur that I found
very entertaining: "Camelot" by Isaac Asimov, though the stories are by
9 different authors. Some of them take place in the 20th century and
are very clever!
In one of the B&N LOTR classes, a few people were heavily into Welsh
and Celtic myth and folklore. They listed a slew of books which I hope
to get to before the decade's out!
Anyone know a good speed-reading course? :-)
Diana
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/24/2002 4:54 AM
Zauber, if you want, later on check out the OTHER LIT: Myth Lit board.
Di
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/30/2002 8:40 AM
Amaranth, at present I am reading H.R. Ellis Davidson's "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe" which is quite good, sort of a literary and anthropological study of the development and characteristics of the central gods. I figured I'd tackle that before going to the actual sources.
Another good website is www.sacredtexts.com.
I also recommend, for 'Arthurian Studies', "The Winter King", by Cornwell. He includes a lot of historical evidence of the times, and has Arthur as a war band leader, as in the earlier documents that mention him. Quite a twist from "Camelot" and T.H. White, but the book rings with authenticity.
Just like Tolkien got a kick out of writing a full story for "The Cow Jumped Over the Moon" and other tales, as if that was the hisortical document and what we recite is but a scrap left from the past, Cornwell sets his narrator up to write the 'true' Arthur, which then got embellished in subsequent retellings.
Regarding the Northern Sagas, I am in my initial stage of confusion and making brief 'flow-charts' and family trees to keep track of everything! But my list of "elements that inspired Tolkien" has started!
Zauber
________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameStorrmrider
Sent: 9/26/2007 5:53 AM
I pictured Grendel as a huge, strong man who may have been deformed in some way. Because of his size and deformity, he is labeled a "monster". Having been labeled a monster along with the people partying and having a good time in the mead hall this prompted him to slaughter and cannibalize.
Someone brought up on another thread that the mead hall may have been built on the land or area that Grendel thought of as his own. This is an interesting idea and this may have added more insult to Grendel. I'm going to go back and read over some of those lines and see if it actually states that possibility.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameStorrmrider
Sent: 9/26/2007 5:57 AM
I wonder why swords won't harm Grendel and his mother? I am going to keep readig the threads here to see if anyone may have posted their thoughts or ideas on this. Maybe it states in the poem somewhere, too.
______________________________________________
Reply
Message 1 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/19/2002 5:50 PM
He deserves his own subject thread, I think.
By the way, I'll no longer apologize for being so far behind. It's all Tolkien's fault, anyway. Boy, start out with one book, Lord of the Rings, and you find yourself enthralled with Norse and Celtic myth, Beowulf and other of Tolkien's influences, a little Old English, other fantasy tales.... It never ends. (But I love it!)
Two things about Grendel's death surprised me. First, Beowulf didn't kill him. Certainly, he gave him a mortal wound, but Grendel not only didn't die directly from Beowulf's attack, but, well, drowned himself -- committed suicide. Or is this not considered suicide in those times? Could it have been done this way to show what a coward Grendel is?
Maybe I'm trying to understand a thousand-year-old story with a 21st century mind.
I was expecting a hero who kills an ogre, and a monster who can be defeated with more than just strength and courage.
Instead, we get a hero who doesn't directly kill Grendel, who uses only great courage and physical strength to defeat (but not kill) him. There's no skill, no cunning. Just brute strength. Grab him and hold on.
Was anyone else disappointed?
Diana
________________________________________________
Reply
Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/19/2002 5:52 PM
And I meant to add at the end that the monster turns out to be a craven coward when he meets his match. This horror who's terrorized Hrothgar's people for 12 years just turns tail and runs away. Then he doesn't even wait for death, but drowns himself. What a wuss!
Diana
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/19/2002 5:55 PM
I read that people of the time 'Beowulf' was written understood Grendel to be Satan himself. I thought he was a son of Cain.
Can he be both? What's the deal?
Diana
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/20/2002 12:25 AM
What a difference a second (okay, and third) reading makes.
I take back what I said about being disappointed about Beowulf not directly killing Grendel and Grendel drowning himself. (Though I still think both are discussion-worthy).
What a heart-rending, dramatic, nightmarish piece of writing! How bone-chilling it must've been for those men to wake up to find Grendel's arm -- the one that slaughtered so many of their people -- hanging from Heorot's ceiling. Somehow it's more creepy than finding his whole body laying on the floor. That there was no body left -- just an arm hanging down and bloody 'foot'prints -- keeps the legend going. It makes the whole 12-year episode almost surreal.
And how appropriate that it was by Beowulf's very arm (and hand) *only* that Grendel was mortally wounded.
The description of Grendel walking into the mere to die is almost enough to stir a tiny bit of pity for him. Pure gothic horror.
Even in translation, this is an incredible piece of writing. I never expected such a gruesome horror story.
Diana
__________________________________________
Reply
Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/22/2002 5:13 PM
I sure hope words aren't fattening because I've been eating a lot of them lately -- my own!
Grendel did not commit suicide by going into the pool. He was going home to die. Maybe say a last good-bye to mumsy.
A kinder, gentler Beowulf? His head seems to have deflated when he learns of the existence of Grendel's mother. No boasting this time, and he accepts the possibility of death.
And what I wrote about Beowulf being all brawn and bravery? Here we see wrestling going on. And he has the quickness of mind and the cunning, in the midst of a life-or-death battle, to eye the giant's sword after the one Unferth gave him was unable to penetrate Mumsy's hide.
Maybe there's a process or slow discovery here of Beowulf's qualities and character. I wonder what kind of king he'll make.
Diana
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: Slade
Sent: 12/22/2002 10:12 PM
Also, Beowulf has a number of droll lines (macabre humour), not to mention his speeches, so he's certainly not just brawn.
____________________________________________
Reply
Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/23/2002 7:21 AM
A very pleasing thread here, getting to see you experience the joy of discovery as you read! Beowulf is a satisfyingly complex character, not simply a testosterone-driven hero, as his first entrance would seem.
This may turn out to be a Neverending Study! And yes, it is easy to get sidetracked, although I bet the sidetracks will add to our overall knowledge. I myself have stumbled into World History, wanting to know a bit more about the Anglo-Saxons, and then getting carried away, both forwards and backwards in time. Plus I've been amassing Northern sagas, etc. to peruse. What else have you been reading and what editions/translations?
Zauber
______________________________________
Reply
Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/24/2002 4:05 AM
Slade, many thanks for being so generous with your knowledge -- on
your website and in answering questions.
I haven't caught any humor, macabre or otherwise, from Beowulf yet.
I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm getting the sense that "Beowulf" requires
more than one reading!
Diana
_______________________________________
Reply
Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/24/2002 4:46 AM
Zauber, I've been using Heaney and Raffel, and occasionally (sorry!)
Slade's. As for study guides, just the usual suspects: Cliffs Notes,
Monarch and SparkNotes. And yes, it's sinking in that Beowulf (book
and character) is about a lot more than guts and glory.
Have you gotten into the Icelandic sagas? Any suggestions as to
where to start? There're so many, it's overwhelming.
Norse myths, I've only started with Crossley-Holland's collection. I
bought both Eddas and the Saga of the Volsangs (not Norse, but...), but
haven't read them yet. Celtic, well, I've started with King Arthur -- that's
what I've been reading lately, especially about Parzival -- and plan to
work my way from there.
There's an anthology of short stories relating to King Arthur that I found
very entertaining: "Camelot" by Isaac Asimov, though the stories are by
9 different authors. Some of them take place in the 20th century and
are very clever!
In one of the B&N LOTR classes, a few people were heavily into Welsh
and Celtic myth and folklore. They listed a slew of books which I hope
to get to before the decade's out!
Anyone know a good speed-reading course? :-)
Diana
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Amaranth
Sent: 12/24/2002 4:54 AM
Zauber, if you want, later on check out the OTHER LIT: Myth Lit board.
Di
_______________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: Zauber
Sent: 12/30/2002 8:40 AM
Amaranth, at present I am reading H.R. Ellis Davidson's "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe" which is quite good, sort of a literary and anthropological study of the development and characteristics of the central gods. I figured I'd tackle that before going to the actual sources.
Another good website is www.sacredtexts.com.
I also recommend, for 'Arthurian Studies', "The Winter King", by Cornwell. He includes a lot of historical evidence of the times, and has Arthur as a war band leader, as in the earlier documents that mention him. Quite a twist from "Camelot" and T.H. White, but the book rings with authenticity.
Just like Tolkien got a kick out of writing a full story for "The Cow Jumped Over the Moon" and other tales, as if that was the hisortical document and what we recite is but a scrap left from the past, Cornwell sets his narrator up to write the 'true' Arthur, which then got embellished in subsequent retellings.
Regarding the Northern Sagas, I am in my initial stage of confusion and making brief 'flow-charts' and family trees to keep track of everything! But my list of "elements that inspired Tolkien" has started!
Zauber
________________________________________
Reply
Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameStorrmrider
Sent: 9/26/2007 5:53 AM
I pictured Grendel as a huge, strong man who may have been deformed in some way. Because of his size and deformity, he is labeled a "monster". Having been labeled a monster along with the people partying and having a good time in the mead hall this prompted him to slaughter and cannibalize.
Someone brought up on another thread that the mead hall may have been built on the land or area that Grendel thought of as his own. This is an interesting idea and this may have added more insult to Grendel. I'm going to go back and read over some of those lines and see if it actually states that possibility.
_____________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameStorrmrider
Sent: 9/26/2007 5:57 AM
I wonder why swords won't harm Grendel and his mother? I am going to keep readig the threads here to see if anyone may have posted their thoughts or ideas on this. Maybe it states in the poem somewhere, too.