Post by MajahTR on Jan 17, 2009 0:36:24 GMT -6
Stormrider would like us to track the Theme of Pity and Compassion. This will be a group effort.
DA
OK then, how about pity and compassion? These two kind of go hand in hand. Bilbo had pity for Gollum and compassion to allow him to live. Even though Frodo made the comment to Gandalf that Bilbo should have killed him right then, Frodo shows the pity and compassion for Gollum later one. And there are many more instances of these themes throught the novels, too. But I guess we (errrr.....or I) will be tracking these themes now!
And I think we should track the character develpments of the characters, too. I would like that to be a group effort. Everyone can add things that they see to the threads. That way we won't miss anything important!
Stormrider
When posting please include the chapter# and general location of your findings. Thanks.
I thought I would start with some definitions of the words from Webster's New World Dictionary:
Pity 1. sorrow for another’s suffering or misfortune 2. A cause for sorrow
Compassion deep sympathy, pity
Mercy 1. Compassion or restraint with regard to the treatment of offenders, enemies, etc. 2. A disposition to be kind or to forgive 3. Kind or compassionate treatment 4. A thing to be grateful for
From Book I, Chapter II - The Shadow of the Past
"What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!" cried Frodo.
"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity" answered Gandalf.
"I am sorry,"said Frodo. "But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum. (then he says that he can’t believe Gandalf and the Elves let Gollum live and that Gollum deserves death.)
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many—yours not least." this last comment from Gandalf.
**********
In the first paragraph spoken by Frodo, I believe the word "pity" is used as definition 2—he feels that it was a shame that Bilbo did not kill Gollum. Frodo does not feel pity for or toward Gollum because he has not actually come in contact with Gollum. His reaction is from hearing other’s descriptions of their encounters with Gollum and Frodo is more frightened and repelled by Gollum than sorry for him. Therefore, Frodo cannot feel pity as used in definition 2 as he states in the third paragraph above.
In the second paragraph spoken by Gandalf, I believe the word "pity" is used as definition 1-- Bilbo felt sorry for the sad state that Gollum lived in which caused him to act as he did. Mercy is used in this paragraph as per definition 3--I don’t believe Bilbo had anything to forgive Gollum for at this point because of his feelings of Pity as used in definition 1.
In the last paragraph above, pity is used in a sentence of foreshadowing! Was this prophesy or was it just Gandalf’s "gut" feeling?
Stormrider
This is very good, Stormrider! I like the way you present your definitions at the beginning of this discussion line, and I especially find very useful your referencing the data back to a specific type of pity as defined above.
Excellent point that Tolkien is contrasting two types of pity to make a very poignant comparison between Frodo's initial feelings about Gollum and those of Bilbo when the old hobbit was still in the Goblin Mine. I never noticed, before you pointed it out, that Frodo, is expressing a #2 type pity concerning Gollum, and he (Frodo) CANNOT yet have a feeling of compassionate-pity (#1) for the former Ring bearer. This will require actually meeting the wretch! Whereas Bilbo, and Gandalf, who already have some first hand knowledge of Gollum and his condition, can and do express your type #1 pity for him.
Very informative Stormrider -- Thank You!
Karo6
Book 2, Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship
Finally the Company lands on the lawn of Parth Galen and they have to make their decision on which direction they will take from there and who will go which way.
Frodo realizes he must go to Mordor with the Ring since he is the Ringbearer. He must somehow find a way to destroy it. That he is clear on. His dilema is with taking his friends along and putting them in danger. He does not want to do that but he also is afraid and would like to have guidance and companionship, too.
Aragorn puts the decision into Frodo's hands. He cannot advise him because he says he is not Gandalf and he also believes Gandalf would still have made Frodo choose. Aragorn mentions that is Frodo's fate. Quoting from the book:
Aragorn looked at him with kindly pity. "Very well, Frodo son of Drogo. You shall have an hour, and you shall be alone. We will stay here for a while. But do not stray far or out of call."
Aragorn's pity is defined in Definition 1. Aragorn knows that the choice is difficult and feels compassion for Frodo for having to make the choice. It is Frodo's misfortune to be the Ringbearer for his role is a very difficult one. Just think of how difficult it will be for the Ringbearer to throw that Ring into Mount Doom when we know that the Ring will oppose him! The Ring has been working on Frodo's mind as well. It has made Frodo desire the Ring and hold it 'precious' to him.
Frodo is an honorable character and truly wishes to destroy the Ring. He loves the Shire and wants life there to remain peaceful and good. With the possibility of Sauron taking control of the World, Frodo knows that the Shire would be in danger (not to mention the rest of the World).
Frodo's choices are very difficult ones. I admire Frodo for wanting to do the right thing and destroy the Ring. I admire him for not wanting to put his friends in danger. I would not want to be in his shoes!
I meant to add that we must all feel a great deal of pity for Frodo in this situation.
Stormrider
DA
OK then, how about pity and compassion? These two kind of go hand in hand. Bilbo had pity for Gollum and compassion to allow him to live. Even though Frodo made the comment to Gandalf that Bilbo should have killed him right then, Frodo shows the pity and compassion for Gollum later one. And there are many more instances of these themes throught the novels, too. But I guess we (errrr.....or I) will be tracking these themes now!
And I think we should track the character develpments of the characters, too. I would like that to be a group effort. Everyone can add things that they see to the threads. That way we won't miss anything important!
Stormrider
When posting please include the chapter# and general location of your findings. Thanks.
I thought I would start with some definitions of the words from Webster's New World Dictionary:
Pity 1. sorrow for another’s suffering or misfortune 2. A cause for sorrow
Compassion deep sympathy, pity
Mercy 1. Compassion or restraint with regard to the treatment of offenders, enemies, etc. 2. A disposition to be kind or to forgive 3. Kind or compassionate treatment 4. A thing to be grateful for
From Book I, Chapter II - The Shadow of the Past
"What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!" cried Frodo.
"Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity" answered Gandalf.
"I am sorry,"said Frodo. "But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum. (then he says that he can’t believe Gandalf and the Elves let Gollum live and that Gollum deserves death.)
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many—yours not least." this last comment from Gandalf.
**********
In the first paragraph spoken by Frodo, I believe the word "pity" is used as definition 2—he feels that it was a shame that Bilbo did not kill Gollum. Frodo does not feel pity for or toward Gollum because he has not actually come in contact with Gollum. His reaction is from hearing other’s descriptions of their encounters with Gollum and Frodo is more frightened and repelled by Gollum than sorry for him. Therefore, Frodo cannot feel pity as used in definition 2 as he states in the third paragraph above.
In the second paragraph spoken by Gandalf, I believe the word "pity" is used as definition 1-- Bilbo felt sorry for the sad state that Gollum lived in which caused him to act as he did. Mercy is used in this paragraph as per definition 3--I don’t believe Bilbo had anything to forgive Gollum for at this point because of his feelings of Pity as used in definition 1.
In the last paragraph above, pity is used in a sentence of foreshadowing! Was this prophesy or was it just Gandalf’s "gut" feeling?
Stormrider
This is very good, Stormrider! I like the way you present your definitions at the beginning of this discussion line, and I especially find very useful your referencing the data back to a specific type of pity as defined above.
Excellent point that Tolkien is contrasting two types of pity to make a very poignant comparison between Frodo's initial feelings about Gollum and those of Bilbo when the old hobbit was still in the Goblin Mine. I never noticed, before you pointed it out, that Frodo, is expressing a #2 type pity concerning Gollum, and he (Frodo) CANNOT yet have a feeling of compassionate-pity (#1) for the former Ring bearer. This will require actually meeting the wretch! Whereas Bilbo, and Gandalf, who already have some first hand knowledge of Gollum and his condition, can and do express your type #1 pity for him.
Very informative Stormrider -- Thank You!
Karo6
Book 2, Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship
Finally the Company lands on the lawn of Parth Galen and they have to make their decision on which direction they will take from there and who will go which way.
Frodo realizes he must go to Mordor with the Ring since he is the Ringbearer. He must somehow find a way to destroy it. That he is clear on. His dilema is with taking his friends along and putting them in danger. He does not want to do that but he also is afraid and would like to have guidance and companionship, too.
Aragorn puts the decision into Frodo's hands. He cannot advise him because he says he is not Gandalf and he also believes Gandalf would still have made Frodo choose. Aragorn mentions that is Frodo's fate. Quoting from the book:
Aragorn looked at him with kindly pity. "Very well, Frodo son of Drogo. You shall have an hour, and you shall be alone. We will stay here for a while. But do not stray far or out of call."
Aragorn's pity is defined in Definition 1. Aragorn knows that the choice is difficult and feels compassion for Frodo for having to make the choice. It is Frodo's misfortune to be the Ringbearer for his role is a very difficult one. Just think of how difficult it will be for the Ringbearer to throw that Ring into Mount Doom when we know that the Ring will oppose him! The Ring has been working on Frodo's mind as well. It has made Frodo desire the Ring and hold it 'precious' to him.
Frodo is an honorable character and truly wishes to destroy the Ring. He loves the Shire and wants life there to remain peaceful and good. With the possibility of Sauron taking control of the World, Frodo knows that the Shire would be in danger (not to mention the rest of the World).
Frodo's choices are very difficult ones. I admire Frodo for wanting to do the right thing and destroy the Ring. I admire him for not wanting to put his friends in danger. I would not want to be in his shoes!
I meant to add that we must all feel a great deal of pity for Frodo in this situation.
Stormrider