BookI Chap1: Bilbo and Frodo?

[MajahTR]

Bilbo and Frodo: our first "pair". And it's a parent-child pair to boot (though the significance of that comes later). What differences and similarities between them are apparent already in the first two chapters? How much is influenced by The Ring?
Good point about Frodo's milestone birthday being ignored Illadria; I confess I never thought much about it, but you make a good point. It's clearly Bilbo's party, Bilbo's gift-giving, Bilbo's whole show. Was this just because Bilbo might have been better known to readers of the "Hobbit"? Or because Bilbo was getting a big send-off before (nearly) leaving the subsequent tale? This bears thinking on.

I was struck by the fact that both Bilbo and Frodo were bachelors in a society where families (apparently large ones) were the norm. When Tolkien first began putting LotR together, he at first considered either continuing Bilbo's adventures, or perhaps having Bilbo's son have an adventure. Eventually he settled on the cousin-nephew relationship instead. Were both the Bagginses just too "odd" for the Hobbit gals in the Shire? You'd think that their reputed wealth would overcome any objections to their adventerous streak.
Hilary

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Let me start by saying that Bilbo and Frodo have many similarities.(many differences too!) First of all, Bilbo and Frodo were both ring-bearers, along with that both had shown signs of 'good preservation' for the power of the ring was at work!

Bilbo and Frodo were both good-friends of Gandalf, who everyone else in the shire considered queer. Both detested the Sackville-Baggins(then again, who didn't?!) and both were employers of the Gamgee family. Bilbo and Frodo were very fond of adventuring although Frodo still 'was in love with the shire' as Bilbo stated and never had yet to leave it......yet

As for differences, Bilbo and Frodo had many.....First off, they were of slight different bloodlines...Bilbo was half-Baggins-half-Took while Frodo was half-Baggins-half-Brandybuck. Frodo was raised in Buckland while Bilbo was raised in Hobbiton.

Frodo considered Gollum as dirt and wished Bilbo had slew him while Bilbo had pitied Gollum, Bilbo used the ring at his own will and took pleasure from it while Frodo with the persistance of Gandalf didn't use it.....
Tuor

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Bilbo is a home-body, quite content with his life, who is dragged against his will into a quest for gold and glory.

Frodo comes of age hearing tales of grand adventure, and talking with dwarves, elves, and a wizard on a somewhat regular basis. As an adult hobbit he often daydreams of travelling to distant lands, and there is a restlessness to him.. He would have welcomed the opportunity to join in the kind of quest the dwarves brought to Bilbo.

Instead his quest is a hopeless flight from danger into greater danger. He goes not to gain wealth, but to lose his most precious possession. He does it not for himself, but for the shire, for Rivendell, for Loth Lorien, for all that is fair and good and beautiful in the world. His is a self-sacrificial quest - laying down his life for the good of others.

Very different indeed...
Megn1

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Looking at some character traits, I noticed that Frodo is a much more serious and thoughtful Hobbit than Bilbo, and far less impulsive. Bilbo is flamboyant. Just the disappearance at the party shows that.
Bilbo did not look at the consequences of his disappearance. He left Frodo "holding the bag" along with the Ring. Frodo's disappearance from the Shire on the other hand, was far less an "event". Though the rumors were rampant, there was hardly a "stir" compared to Bilbo's leaving.
DA

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I hadn't thought of that DaleAnn. Even though Bilbo was already a very old man he still acted in ways that were immature and irresponsible. We do learn in the later chapter, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, I believe, that Frodo pulled a few pranks in his youth, but overall it seems evident that he is much more mature at 33 (barely an adult) than Bilbo was at 111.
Illadria

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Again, I am giving thoughts without research... but I think if Bilbo had a choice, he would have stayed in the Shire for the rest of his life, if it weren't for the evil nature of the Ring. It was the Ring is what was making him "thin and stretched" - not staying in the Shire.

His relatives were bothersome, but I think he would have lived with that.

I don't think Bilbo or Frodo are truly "adventurous." The adventures were indulgences enjoyed for a time, but Bilbo always wanted to be home again. Frodo thought he wanted to leave the Shire to follow Bilbo, but he too, if given the choice, would have come back to stay ...if not for the Ring... or the burden of being the ring bearer.

Bilbo and Frodo were similar. Bilbo saw a bit of himself in Frodo (a prankster and bit mischievous), like a son. When Frodo's parents died he wanted to be sure Frodo had a home and since he had no heir (and shuddered at thought of the S-B getting Bag's End and his possessions) Bilbo was more that happy to adopt him as his heir.
LovesBeren

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I think Bilbo did long for more adventure. I was struck by the fact that his old cloak and hood had been locked up as if very precious. It seems to me the whole paragraph about his getting ready for his journey (after his disappearance at the party) is indicative of his attitude about starting over (or perhaps, more to the point, going back). His earlier adventure was the most significant thing in his long life. He did also tell Gandalf how he longed to see mountains again. Also, I thought it significant that he had summoned the dwarves for his new journey.
In haste,
Illadria

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Illadria,
Me being one of the "silly" Libras as Linda Goodman writes in "Sun Signs" I'm inclined to think you may have found if nothing else an interesting coincidence there. September 21st 1937 is the Chronological publishing date of "The Hobbit", although I find any connection unlikely. I haven't noted any information on Tolkien being interested in astrology, although I am sure he was familier with it.
The adventure issue could be looked at from how Bilbo originally viewed the prospect: "uncomfortable, make on late for supper" to the assumed mature Bilbo's "I long to see the Mountains". This in fact shows me Bilbo had not really matured until he reached Rivendel when he asks Frodo:"Don't adventures ever have an end" I think at this point not only do we see a mature Bilbo, but the reader is also matured by this statement as well, "This isn't the Hobbit any more Dorothy". Just a bit of my random musing, but all in all, a fun thread it's really getting me thinking. Thanks.
Namárië,
Iarwain

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Illadria - I do see you point on the "see mountains again" and the dwarves leaving with him and the locked cloak is very symbolic. Still, I have to think that he was longing for a time when he felt freer (without the ring having as much weight on him). The Ring has taken its toll on him, not the doldrums of the Shire. But of course he didn't know it was the Ring that made him feel that way. Maybe he thought another adventure would rejuvenate him and he would not want to return to "whatever it was that weighted him down." I haven't re-read Bilbo's meeting with Frodo in Rivendell in while. That will provide more insight. Thanks for responding... this is fun.
LovesBeren

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One major difference I think appears to be the way they interact socially. Bilbo definitely seems a bit more "harsh" in his dealings, whereas Frodo appears to avoid causing a scene. Bilbo sees the Shire population for what they are ... a community that has been sheltered from the trials and tribulations of the world. He definitely thinks of himself as the "knowing parent" to all his relations. Frodo, on the other hand, still shares the innocence of his people although this has been a bit modified by his companionship with Bilbo. Frodo is much like Bilbo's character from The Hobbit and we can expect him to develop along the lines of his Uncle if he can ever escape the Shire.

One similarity, I think, is what they find entertaining. Frodo exhibits this when he displays amusement at Bilbo's joke (where all others were a bit offended). Frodo has been shown a bit of the outside world through Bilbo's writings and stories. He shows a similar affinity for Elves.

The Ring's influence definitely influences Bilbo's speech and actions sporadically. Frodo does not posses these traits ... as of yet, anyway.
Algamesh

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I see Frodo as being more thoughtful and insightful than Bilbo. More educated and classy (??). (He probably isn't, in fact, more edcuated, but impresses me as being so. Maybe it's another quality I mean.) Even at 33, at Bilbo's party -- which was his birthday, too -- he sure wasn't celebrating. Okay, he felt awful about Bilbo leaving. But his character decades later seems not too different. When Bilbo wants to go home during his adventure, it's for its comforts and his 6 meals a day. Frodo doesn't seem to care as much as Bilbo about comfort: When he expresses a desire to go home, it's to be out of the horrible dangers.

I cannot see Bilbo being the Ringbearer; he's not serious enough to do it. Frodo is. Bilbo was a follower in his adventure; Frodo's the leader (after Gandalf and Aragorn) in his.
Diana

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The "plan" was in place before Bilbo got involved. I agree that Bilbo was a follower (mere baggage) before he aquired the Ring...but, as time went on, he asserted himself more and more. Frodo, however, was in on the making of the "plan" for LotR which gave him a larger leadership role from the start.
DA

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(I'm baaaaack! I've had a computer "nightmare" not being able to access the web for a week, until after many fruitless talks over several days with "tech support" people who know NOTHING I remembered about the "systems restore" feature I have and fixed it myself. Actually, I know next to nothing about computers--maybe I should apply for a job in tech support?! )

We will never know why Gandalf chose Bilbo to go on the quest with the dwarves and he certainly went unwillingly, but Frodo's quest was thrust upon him by necessity. Having lived with Bilbo and heard the tales of his adventure helped him be more aware of the "world outside" the Shire and helped prepare him to venture into it. (Correct me if I'm wrong--but I have the impression that Frodo had also had some contact through Bilbo with elves?) Bilbo's journey was an "adventure." Frodo's journey was a "responsibility." Responsibility matures you sooner and faster than adventure. I think it is significant that Frodo's responsibility led him to make the decision to leave one his own when Gandalf did not come as he had promised. However, it is interesting that Pippin and Merry seem to handle most of the details of the traveling and daily living at this point. We haven't gotton there yet, Warning!spoiler for first timers: but perhaps the most significant event in Frodo's "leadership" comes at Rivendell . This was as far as he had expected to carry the Ring. He planned to stay with Bilbo, which had been his desire, but after all the long discussion about what to do with the Ring he realizes that he will have to be the one to take it to the fire and he volunteers even though he is terribly afraid. I wonder if Bilbo would have done that. I agree with those who said that Frodo seems more mature at this age than Bilbo.
MusicMom

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MusicMom, I agree with what you said about the important difference between Bilbo's adventure and Frodo's responsibility. Their situations are pretty much exact opposites, it seems - Bilbo was unwilling to go but ended up enjoying himself, while Frodo had always dreamed of adventures but then found them less enjoyable than he had thought.

I would say that Pippin and Merry are kind of like Bilbo - it isn't really their quest, but they go along for the ride and enjoy the adventure. Of course they have some dangerous times, as Bilbo did, but it really seems like a lark for them. Frodo, on the other hand, endures a lot of pain and carries a lot of responsibility as the central figure of the quest. While he and Sam are toiling along with the ring, Pippin and Merry are having their own, much less grave, adventures. Their return to the Shire is much more flamboyant and showy, kind of like Bilbo's return from his journey in The Hobbit, while Frodo comes home quietly and seems to fade away (sorry about the spoiler!). Even Frodo's serious, withdrawn attitude shows the difference between his grave responsibility and the lighthearted adventures of his friends.
Eleandune

[Stormrider]

The Ring kept Bilbo young-looking for 61 years although he admitted to Gandalf that he felt "thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread."

But Gollum seemed to wrinkle and shrivel up from having The Ring.

Why did their appearances differ so much? Is it because Gollum used it for evil from the start killing his friend, Deagol, and was shunned by his community? Whereas Bilbo used it to help him escape the Goblins in the Misty Mountains and to aid his party of Dwarves.

Or because of the length of time they each owned The Ring? Gollum hundreds of years and Bilbo only 61 years.

Also age seemed to catch up to Bilbo more quickly once he left athe Ring to Frodo.

[Andorinha]

Oooo, a good topic! I'll be back after some research...

[Andorinha]

I am, at this moment, trying to determine if personal genetics had anything to do with Bilbo's apparent resistance to the character corrupting, and aging processes of the Ring. I believe JRRT assigned Gollum to the Stoor group of hobbits, while Bilbo was Harfoot and Fallohide mixture. Was there, in JRRT's mind a sort of built-in racism, a matter of better breeding where the Fallowhides were ranked above the Harfoots and the Stoors at the bottom? This might be consistent with his subdivision of Men into higher and lower classifications: Numenoreans, Rohirrim, Bree Men, Dunlendings, Southrons, then Half Orcs... So Bilbo should be expected to resist the Ring's pernicious impacts better than a mere Stoor like Smeagol? Keep in mind that Smeagol has only to see the Ring in Deagol's hand to be driven into a murderous fury. Certainly Bilbo never reacted with murderous fury at any time during his own possession of the Ring. Was this difference due to Bilbo's "better breeding?"

[Stormrider]

Smeagol liked to dig in the dirt and look for roots and worms and insects. He had his head down most of the time. Bilbo always liked walks and to see interesting things above ground.

As you said the instant Smeagol saw the Ring he wanted it causing him to murder Deagol. Bilbo had no inclination for murder, only pity toward Gollum.

So I think their basic nature, or state of their heart, is at the center of it. Could being a more lowly breed of Hobbit? Good question! Need to know more about the Stoores.

I've been reading FOTR again. And Tom Bombadil certainly isn't affected by it and acts as if it's a joke.

[Stormrider]

I found this link about Hobbits being resistant to The Ring's power. In purple highlight it states Gollum was of a race slightly different than Hobbits! Wait! What!

screenrant.com/lord-rings-hobbits-not-corrupted-sauron/#:~:text=Sm%C3%A9agol%20was%20of%20a%20race

[Andorinha]

I think, in the original text of The Hobbit, Gollum was a strange, subterranean creature, and not connected to a hobbit past. There were others like him, with whom he used to play riddle games, and he even had an egg-sucking grandmother. The Smeagol/ Deagol storyline, and the hobbit connection were created once Bilbo's Luck/ Invisibilty ring was secondarily promoted to be Sauron's One Ring in the new book, The Lord of the Rings. At this point Gollum needed a new identity, and JRRT gave him a hobbit-like ancestry: "... there lived by the banks of the Great River on the edge of Wilderland a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people. I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoorss, for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds."*

From this, I think, your screenrant source got the idea that Smeagol/ Gollum was of a race "slightly different" from the Shire hobbits, maybe with a different, lesser ability to resist the One Ring's corrupting power.

*FOTR, chat II, "The Shadow of the Past," p. 51

[Stormrider]

I saw other links that said Stoors were not actually Hobbits, too. Then some links stating there were three breeds of Hobbits: Fallodides, Harfoots, and Stores (which is what I always thought it was)

Then another said Smeagol/Deagol were river-folk which were not hobbits but smaller people.

I tend to believe what you quoted above, Andy.

[Fredeghar Wayfarer]

Dec 21, 2023 22:15:36 GMT -6 Stormrider said:

I saw other links that said Stoors were not actually Hobbits, too. Then some links stating there were three breeds of Hobbits: Fallodides, Harfoots, and Stores (which is what I always thought it was)

Then another said Smeagol/Deagol were river-folk which were not hobbits but smaller people.

I tend to believe what you quoted above, Andy.

Stoors were one of the three breeds of hobbits. You're correct on that. The other links may be misinterpreting Tolkien's words about them being "akin" to the fathers of the Stoors. Or they may be thinking of the movie line about how Gollum was "not so different from a hobbit once." The ambiguity probably comes from the fact that the river-folk lived hundreds of years earlier and may not have used the word "hobbit" to describe themselves yet. Much like the Harfoots we see on the Rings of Power show.

As for how the Ring affected Bilbo and Gollum, I think it comes down to character and how long they had the Ring. Bilbo was ultimately good of heart and had no intention of using the Ring for personal gain, other than to protect himself on his adventure. Smeagol presumably had some evil in him already. His first instinct with the Ring was to murder Deagol. And after that, I believe he used the Ring to sneak around the river-folk community and spy on people, which eventually got him banished (along with the rumors that he may have been responsible for Deagol's disappearance).

The Ring doesn't turn people evil per se. It magnifies the darkness and bad impulses that are already in a person. Bilbo and most of the Shire-hobbits didn't have much darkness in them so they were able to resist the Ring for longer.

As you mentioned, Gollum also had the Ring for hundreds of years and had more time to be corrupted by it. His deformed appearance was a side effect of his unnatural long life. I think if Bilbo had had the Ring for that long, he also would have started to look like that. He already felt "thin, sort of stretched, like butter spread over too much bread." Imagine how he would feel 500 years later.

[Stormrider]

That would have been frightening if Bilbo had The Ring as long as Gollum had it. Goodness! The Hobbit Gossip that would have resulted from Bilbo's really long life. Of course, no hobbit would have lived long enough to watch him live that long, it would have had to have been from handed down accounts of Bilbo through the ages. But in the book Bilbo didn't age at all and despite feeling stretched thin like butter spread too thin over bread, I would think he would have become more invisible rather than ugly like Gollum who showed his evil streak.