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Post by MajahTR on Jan 18, 2009 20:49:25 GMT -6
At the end of chapter 5, Frodo has a dream. What is its purpose? DA
I think this is a dream of foretelling. The sound of the sea reminds me of the inhabitants leaving M-e by sea. The white tower has to be the one at Minas Tirith. But Frodo dreams nothing specific about the sea or the tower. To me, this means that the sea and tower will figure in somehow -- or already do -- but it's too early to know how they'll be involved, or maybe what Frodo's knowledge of them may be. After all, so early in the journey, he's already escaped death or worse several times. Do you think Gandalf is sending him images, or that Frodo's picking them up from Gandalf? Or someone else! Or is foretelling basic elements of this journey another effect of the Ring? Hmmm.... Diana
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Post by Andorinha on Jun 7, 2011 13:58:43 GMT -6
RE Diana's "The white tower has to be the one at Minas Tirith."
SPOILER ALERT: we find out more about this "White Tower" in the last chapter of RotK.
Having had a few more years of ME reading under our belts by now (2011) than was available to the original study members (2002?), I think this "White Tower" is more likely to be the great tower of the Emyn Beriad, the Tower Hills west of the Shire. Elostirion it was named, and it is called an Elf tower, rather than a tower of/ by the Dunedain, although it was used to house one of the Seven Palantiri of the House of Elendil. FotR, "Prologue," gives us the following description that seems quite closely connected with Frodo's dream:
"Three Elf-towers of immemorial age were still to be seen on the Tower Hills beyond the western marches. They shone far off in the moonlight. The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound. The Hobbits of the Westfarthing said that one could see the Sea from the top of that tower; but no Hobbit had ever been known to climb it. ... And as the days of the Shire lengthened they spoke less and less with the Elves, and grew afraid of them, and distrustful of those that had dealings with them; and the Sea became a word of fear among them, and a token of death..." (LotR, Single vol. hrd bck, p. 19)
Diana nails it here, for me, in calling this a "dream of foretelling." Frodo will, eventually, see this tower himself, perhaps even climb it:
"And when they had passed from the Shire, going about the south skirts of the White Downs, they came to the Far Downs, and to the Towers, and looked on the distant Sea; and so they rode down at last to Mithlond, to the Grey Havens in the firth of Lune." (RotK, "The Grey Havens," p. 383 pap. bck ver)
Unfortunately, JRRT does not actually tell us that Frodo got to climb this furthest of the towers, but, I'd like to think that he did, just to complete the dream's foretelling.
I notice that Fonstad, map of Eriador (Atlas of Middle-earth, pp 74/75) designates the three towers as "White Towers," but I don't recall JRRT calling them "white" in LotR, merely stating that they "shone?"
Ah, yes, p. 123 of the single volume LotR does say: "Looking up he [Frodo] saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge." (my emphasis). But, were ALL the three towers white? ______________________
RE Diana: "Do you think Gandalf is sending him images, or that Frodo's picking them up from Gandalf? Or someone else! Or is foretelling basic elements of this journey another effect of the Ring? Hmmm...."
I don't think Gandalf had any part in this dream, I'm trying to recall when the wizard first picked up the ability to "contact" Frodo telepathically. Wasn't it after Gandalf was elevated to the colour White, after Moria? In this I'm thinking that Gandalf "contacted" Frodo when the Hobbit was on Amon Hen, and when he was wearing the One Ring. Maybe, as holder of the Red Ring Narya, Gandalf was able to communicate with Frodo whenever the Hobbit wore the Ring? Maybe the magic of Amon Hen amplified the connection?
Frodo earlier had another premonitory dream, of Gandalf being held prisoner at Orthanc, but Gandalf claims no responsibility for this dream either. I think, but have no definite statement from JRRT to this effect, that Frodo was getting his dreams from his own power, his own sensitive mind which allowed him to receive dream messages from the Valar, but not Gandalf.
Nor do I think the Ring would have done anything to aid Frodo by giving him helpful glimpses of the future -- though maybe the simple possession of the Ring had enhanced Frodo's own latent abilities?
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