Post by MajahTR on Jan 18, 2009 20:51:15 GMT -6
The word forest may come frome the latin word foris meaning outside. When I read that the first thing that came to mind was Shire = inside and Old Forest = outside. (I know I am stating the obvious.) The settings are a Tolkien "Pair". What are some of the ways we can compare and contrast them?
The Old Forest is also a nearly classic example of the "Laybrinth Motif." How is this so? And what other examples of the "Laybrinth Motif" are you familiar with?
DA
Some very cursory research produced the following information.
The labyrinth is an ancient pattern associated with spiritual growth.
The word is derived from the word for Zeus's double axe.
The labyrinth also is a method of defense.
I guess The Old Forest defended itself from outsiders, and served as a buffer between the Shire and the world on the other side of the forest.
And what other examples of the "Laybrinth Motif" are you familiar with? What jumped into my mind is the city of Minas Tirith, with its seven levels surrounded by walls with a series of tunnels and gates.
sparrow
The Old Forest may be a bit more symbolic than what is apparent. As DaleAnn has stated, the Forest represents that which is "Outside". Obviously, it is outside the Shire but I think it is also Outside of Hobbit Knowledge. The Forest represents new experiences and the development of worldly knowledge ... also the end of innocence.
Laybrinth represents Choice. It has done so since the creation of myth. The right choices will see one through to the end ... completion. Wrong choices (turns) could end up in delay or worse. Hobbits really had little in the way of important choice in the Shire. The concerns of the Shire were very meager at best. Finally, Hobbits are presented with matters of importance ... a route to Wisdom by trial and error.
Algamesh
Interesting, Algy, sparrow!
Here is just a surface detail on this. In a laybrinth, all the turns eventually lead you to its center, as opposed to a maze, where you start at one end, and come to the other end. In this case the forest leads them, at every turn, to the center of the forest, the foot of Old Man Willow, at least in how I'm reading it. ?
Fallo
Fallohide, exactly -- and in the center of a laybrinth is a monster! In this case Old Man Willow!
DA
Considering Tolkien wanted to create an "English mythology" with his writings, a labyrinth is an appropriate device.
Hilary
Very interesting - I enjoyed learning a little about labyrinths. I thought it was like a maze. So by making right choices, one avoids the center and thus the monster? But in this story, I didn't see the Hobbits as making bad choices. They were forced to the center!
Sparrow
As I thought about this motif, I was struck by the transformative nature of the Labyrinth rather than the danger, darkness, and a minotaur at the center. For me the center is where all movement ceases, where one finds peace, safety and contentment, where one finds the answers to Life’s most important questions, where one is apt to have intuitive dreams. The confusion, movement, and detours represented by the circuitous paths presents the pilgrim with challenges and choices on his quest to find the center. Many Shamanistic traditions see the labyrinth in this way including Native American and Celtic. So with this in mind, I immediately thought of Tom’s house as being at the center of the Old Forest.
Not until I read some of your thoughts already posted here, did I think about the possibility of a monster at the center. Many other examples manifested for me, all meditative in some form, where the Labyrinth (or mandala) represents the paths that the human soul must traverse before finding his own center or his own truth. Other examples from LOTR jumped out at me. All the havens (centers) around which good vrs evil battle, like Rivendell and especially Lothlorien., or even the Window on the West.
This reminded me of another question posed re Bombadil under another thread. Because I am seeing Labyrinth in a different way with Tom’s house being at the center, it occurred to me that Tom would be representative of the calm and bliss that resides at the center. He would not be concerned with nor influenced by the darkness and dangers that prevail beyond his borders. In Buddhist belief this is not considered ambivalence or indifference but the path to enlightenment. The Mandala is one of their most sacred symbols., the nadir (or spiritual center) is surrounded by circular images that represent the impermanence of the physical world. Perhaps this is why Iarwain (Tom’s Elvish name) gained so much respect from Gandalf, Elrond and others.
Did anyone else think about the transformative or meditative aspect of the Labyrinth? And DA where and how did you discover this most interesting idea?
Annie
Never Trust a Willow
Remember when Old Man Willow tried to kill (eat?) the hobbits? Willows play a role in Greek and Celtic myth. I don't know how relevant this may be, but here goes . . .
In Greek myth, the willow is a tree of death and the Underworld, and is sacred to deities of the Underworld (a possible clue to Tom Bombadil's identity?). Greek and Celtic bards found inspiration in the willow (again, remember TB's 'nonsense' songs).
Could the Hobbits' run-in with Old Man Willow have changed them for the better? "[The]...willow strengthens the intuition and gives inspiration, paving the way to knowledge. As a plant of death and rebirth it is used as an initiatory brew when it helps to transmute the negative aspects of the personality or 'little self' and integrate them into the whole Self without bitterness or regret. It teaches that the responsibility for one's development comes from within and one must take control of one's own destiny."
Now, boys and girls, would you like to hear a story?
Every wonder why it was so hard to get a good barber in ancient Ireland? In one old Irish tale, a willow has remarkable abilities. Labra the Mariner (who also happened to be king) had horse-like ears which embarrassed him to no end. To be certain his deformity would never be known, after his annual haircut, he had the barber executed.
One day, a widow begged Labra to allow her son to cut his hair (they really needed the money) and let him live. Labra made the young barber swear to secrecy, Labra got his haircut, and all was well.
For a while.
Soon Labra's secret burned in the young barber; he had to tell it or it would kill him. A Druid advised him to go to a crossroads (Faramir left Sam and Frodo at a crossroads before parting) and whisper his secret
to the first tree he came to. The tree turned out to be a willow to which the young barber whispered his secret. Immediately, he recovered.
Ah, but wait!
A musician had a gig at the king's (Labra) pad that very night and -- wouldn't you know it! -- his harp had just been broken. So he used the wood from the very same willow tree that was privvy to the barber's secret to make himself a new harp. Happy that all was well, the musician began to perform at the king's hall with his new harp of willow's wood. The moment he touched its
strings, they chimed, "Two horse's ears hath Labra the Mariner." (Remember, the king is Labra!) Gasp! Horrors! Fortunately for the young barber, the music from the willow's wood harp also cured Labra of his embarrassment. Labra whipped off his hat to show all the court his horse ears! Never again did he execute a barber. The end. Nighty-night.
SOURCES:
"Celtic Myths and Legends" by T.W. Rolleston, pp. 154-5
Diana
The Old Forest is also a nearly classic example of the "Laybrinth Motif." How is this so? And what other examples of the "Laybrinth Motif" are you familiar with?
DA
Some very cursory research produced the following information.
The labyrinth is an ancient pattern associated with spiritual growth.
The word is derived from the word for Zeus's double axe.
The labyrinth also is a method of defense.
I guess The Old Forest defended itself from outsiders, and served as a buffer between the Shire and the world on the other side of the forest.
And what other examples of the "Laybrinth Motif" are you familiar with? What jumped into my mind is the city of Minas Tirith, with its seven levels surrounded by walls with a series of tunnels and gates.
sparrow
The Old Forest may be a bit more symbolic than what is apparent. As DaleAnn has stated, the Forest represents that which is "Outside". Obviously, it is outside the Shire but I think it is also Outside of Hobbit Knowledge. The Forest represents new experiences and the development of worldly knowledge ... also the end of innocence.
Laybrinth represents Choice. It has done so since the creation of myth. The right choices will see one through to the end ... completion. Wrong choices (turns) could end up in delay or worse. Hobbits really had little in the way of important choice in the Shire. The concerns of the Shire were very meager at best. Finally, Hobbits are presented with matters of importance ... a route to Wisdom by trial and error.
Algamesh
Interesting, Algy, sparrow!
Here is just a surface detail on this. In a laybrinth, all the turns eventually lead you to its center, as opposed to a maze, where you start at one end, and come to the other end. In this case the forest leads them, at every turn, to the center of the forest, the foot of Old Man Willow, at least in how I'm reading it. ?
Fallo
Fallohide, exactly -- and in the center of a laybrinth is a monster! In this case Old Man Willow!
DA
Considering Tolkien wanted to create an "English mythology" with his writings, a labyrinth is an appropriate device.
Hilary
Very interesting - I enjoyed learning a little about labyrinths. I thought it was like a maze. So by making right choices, one avoids the center and thus the monster? But in this story, I didn't see the Hobbits as making bad choices. They were forced to the center!
Sparrow
As I thought about this motif, I was struck by the transformative nature of the Labyrinth rather than the danger, darkness, and a minotaur at the center. For me the center is where all movement ceases, where one finds peace, safety and contentment, where one finds the answers to Life’s most important questions, where one is apt to have intuitive dreams. The confusion, movement, and detours represented by the circuitous paths presents the pilgrim with challenges and choices on his quest to find the center. Many Shamanistic traditions see the labyrinth in this way including Native American and Celtic. So with this in mind, I immediately thought of Tom’s house as being at the center of the Old Forest.
Not until I read some of your thoughts already posted here, did I think about the possibility of a monster at the center. Many other examples manifested for me, all meditative in some form, where the Labyrinth (or mandala) represents the paths that the human soul must traverse before finding his own center or his own truth. Other examples from LOTR jumped out at me. All the havens (centers) around which good vrs evil battle, like Rivendell and especially Lothlorien., or even the Window on the West.
This reminded me of another question posed re Bombadil under another thread. Because I am seeing Labyrinth in a different way with Tom’s house being at the center, it occurred to me that Tom would be representative of the calm and bliss that resides at the center. He would not be concerned with nor influenced by the darkness and dangers that prevail beyond his borders. In Buddhist belief this is not considered ambivalence or indifference but the path to enlightenment. The Mandala is one of their most sacred symbols., the nadir (or spiritual center) is surrounded by circular images that represent the impermanence of the physical world. Perhaps this is why Iarwain (Tom’s Elvish name) gained so much respect from Gandalf, Elrond and others.
Did anyone else think about the transformative or meditative aspect of the Labyrinth? And DA where and how did you discover this most interesting idea?
Annie
Never Trust a Willow
Remember when Old Man Willow tried to kill (eat?) the hobbits? Willows play a role in Greek and Celtic myth. I don't know how relevant this may be, but here goes . . .
In Greek myth, the willow is a tree of death and the Underworld, and is sacred to deities of the Underworld (a possible clue to Tom Bombadil's identity?). Greek and Celtic bards found inspiration in the willow (again, remember TB's 'nonsense' songs).
Could the Hobbits' run-in with Old Man Willow have changed them for the better? "[The]...willow strengthens the intuition and gives inspiration, paving the way to knowledge. As a plant of death and rebirth it is used as an initiatory brew when it helps to transmute the negative aspects of the personality or 'little self' and integrate them into the whole Self without bitterness or regret. It teaches that the responsibility for one's development comes from within and one must take control of one's own destiny."
Now, boys and girls, would you like to hear a story?
Every wonder why it was so hard to get a good barber in ancient Ireland? In one old Irish tale, a willow has remarkable abilities. Labra the Mariner (who also happened to be king) had horse-like ears which embarrassed him to no end. To be certain his deformity would never be known, after his annual haircut, he had the barber executed.
One day, a widow begged Labra to allow her son to cut his hair (they really needed the money) and let him live. Labra made the young barber swear to secrecy, Labra got his haircut, and all was well.
For a while.
Soon Labra's secret burned in the young barber; he had to tell it or it would kill him. A Druid advised him to go to a crossroads (Faramir left Sam and Frodo at a crossroads before parting) and whisper his secret
to the first tree he came to. The tree turned out to be a willow to which the young barber whispered his secret. Immediately, he recovered.
Ah, but wait!
A musician had a gig at the king's (Labra) pad that very night and -- wouldn't you know it! -- his harp had just been broken. So he used the wood from the very same willow tree that was privvy to the barber's secret to make himself a new harp. Happy that all was well, the musician began to perform at the king's hall with his new harp of willow's wood. The moment he touched its
strings, they chimed, "Two horse's ears hath Labra the Mariner." (Remember, the king is Labra!) Gasp! Horrors! Fortunately for the young barber, the music from the willow's wood harp also cured Labra of his embarrassment. Labra whipped off his hat to show all the court his horse ears! Never again did he execute a barber. The end. Nighty-night.
SOURCES:
"Celtic Myths and Legends" by T.W. Rolleston, pp. 154-5
Diana