Post by MajahTR on Jan 18, 2009 21:09:35 GMT -6
Right up front I have to admit that I've always been a little ambivalent about the character of Tom Bombadil. As I was looking through the Internet one day recently I came upon a webpage that talked about what side the characters were on in the War of the Ring. Tom B. was put in the neutral list. I said to myself "Ok", and moved on to another page. A few minutes went by and then the light bulb came on over my head. Tom Bombadil was indifferent to the outcome. Now I understood why I am ambivalent towards that character. I have a "morality" problem with indifference. So, tell me, what list do you think he belongs on? And what if there was only two lists --Good and Bad?
DA
Is Tom indifferent to struggle btween good and evil or does he appear so because he is confident in the final triumph of good?
Tom's power is in his song so, since th publication of The Silmarillion, I've always thought of him being associated The Great Music. He may not know all the details of future history but he knows the eventual outcome - evil will be banished.
Tom is so old, even compared to the Elves, that he must have quite a different perspective on the world. Perhaps he sees the War of The Ring as just another incident in a long series of such events; things will be dark for a while and then recover. He knows he can't solve all the world's ills, he can't protect all of Middle Earth. He's withdrawn into a small area that he thinks he can hold together until the storm is past.
Selmo
In response to DaleAnn's question regarding whether Tom B. can be categorized as "good" or "bad", Selmo posted:
"Tom is so old, even compared to the Elves, that he must have quite a different perspective on the world. Perhaps he sees the War of The Ring as just another incident in a long series of such events; things will be dark for a while and then recover. He knows he can't solve all the world's ills, he can't protect all of Middle Earth. He's withdrawn into a small area that he thinks he can hold together until the storm is past."
I admit, the idea of Tom as a true "neutral" seems to fit best to me. I can't picture him tolerating (or participating in) evil acts in "his" world. He did good for the hobbits, providing aid, shelter, food, for them. Then he sent them on their way. I think Selmo summed Tom up nicely. If there are only 2 categories, Tom must be "Good"; he did no "Bad" actions that I can identify.
Hilary
This is an interesting topic... Well, I must say that at first I was a bit annoyed at Tom Bombadil. I don't know if it was because he was a bit too... merry (?!) but, now that I think about it, it may have been just this! However, as I have considered his character further, I must agree with what you all have said. Since he is so old, he has known what struggles ME has faced, and so perhaps in his wisdom, he knows that good will eventually triumph. But, perhaps there is more than that. I think Tom realizes this is not a battle for him to take any part in; he is the master of the forest, and we see that he does not go beyond his "limits" Why is this? I think he might just realize that his part in the strife is to lend aid and serve as a sort of balancing force, preserving good at least in one part of the world, until evil is vanquished forever. Now, I have a question... what kind of creature is Tom exactly? Since we know he is almost as old as the world itself... but he is not an elf, nor a dwarf.... what is he?
Starlight
I seem to recall reading something about Tom Bombadil being a very old spirit, in a way comparable to the Istari... One of the Maiar?
Pearl
I just had a wild thought...
maybe Tom Bombadil is John Ronald Reuel Tolkien himself
Illadria
I read a post somewhere (must be encroaching old-age, I can't remember if it was here or on another forum) that perhaps Tom was actually Iluvatar- just hanging out, enjoying what he had created, still singing the "music".
Hilary
Illadria and Hilary, you will find both these ideas on the Tom Bombadil study board, under The Adventures of Tom Bombadil poem thread. (Maj note* The TB study has been copied to the study forum)
Glor
First, Illadria, in one of his letters, Tolkien wrote that the character most like him is Faramir. Sorry to squelch your TB theory!
Two ideas on this:
1. Maybe Tom Bombadil has no power or ability to affect the course of Middle-earth in those terms. Doesn't he say somewhere that he can't go past a certain point, that he must stay within a certain distance of the woods? Sure, he saves the hobbits from the Barrow Wrights. But any futher than that is outside his realm, geographically and being-wise. Perhaps compassion for flesh and blood entities isn't part of his essence. Singing, dancing, laughing, loving Goldberry and being caretaker for the woods is the limit of his existence. Remember, the Ring has absolutely ZERO effect on Tom. He plays with it and, irony of ironies, makes IT disappear! It's a toy to him. And maybe this war of good vs. evil is a game to him.
2. Rather than ignorance of the doings of M-e, maybe Tom knows Everything. From what I gather, Tom is, if not one of the Ainur, one of the immortals -- a god of sorts, though the word doesn't suit him. Going off on a tangent for a moment.... Why does God permit evil? Why doesn't he stop it? Maybe he sees the Big Picture and understands why it must be. When you get an infestation of ants, you kill them, right? You kinda know they have a right to live, but not in your home. The lives of a bunch of ants just aren't as important as keeping your home germ- and disease-free. You see a bigger picture. Well, maybe God -- and Tom -- see THE Big Picture, and this war must be fought. For whatever cosmic reason, evil (Sauron) cannot be simply wiped out. They're necessary. What about Karma, reaping what you sow? Maybe the Hobbits are paying for centuries living in peaceful ignorance of anything outside the Shire.
Diana
Tom Bombadil is such an enigma in LotR. I used to get so worked up wondering why Tolkien even wrote him into the story. I have thought of a few reasons. First, I think Tolkien enjoyed writing stories about him so, putting him in the LofR was a way to for all of us to enjoy his musings. Secondly, his role was to be a safe harbor (1 point for “good”) and defender (and another). There are many characters in LofR that are indifferent… the elves heading to the Grey Havens. Tom does seem to care, but like Gildor understands it is not his “role” to get involved.
Another reason Tom doesn’t get involved is his enchantment with Goldberry. Couold it be that Goldberry has him so enchanted that he doesn’t even care about its power? He’s got everything he wants! I wonder how he became so enchanted. Was it from her singing or dancing? I know that “elf” Thingol became enchanted with “Maiar” Melian and could not go further on his journey with his people (giving up his leadership and power). “Man” Beren is enchanted by “half-elf/half-Maiar” Luthien through her dancing. How did Tom become enchanted? I also get the feeling that Tolkien felt this kind of enchantment in life as they testified on their epitaph Edith (Luthien) and John Ronald Reuel (Beren) Tolkien.
I still can’t talk about Tom without wondering who he might be. Although, I think all we will ever be able to do is eliminate what he is not. I had some theories at one time that I’ll share. It also explains why he might be “indifferent.” LotR “Master of the wood, water, and hill “…The found that he had now wondered into strange regions beyond their memory and their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore;” …I am old. Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before big people, and saw the little people arriving.” Could this be In the early times for the story of Valaquenta? This easily could make him one of the Ainur or Maiar. If is one of the Ainur, he was a part of the music of the Ainur and knows his own part.
From the Sil: Ainulindale -The Ainur know much of was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store…"
If he is one of the Ainur, then he knows part he sang, but does not all. Does it excuse him from being indifferent? I think it would be wonderful if I knew that “exactly what part I sang.” If I knew the outcome, I might seem indifferent to those in peril.
Gandalf is Maiar (lesser than one of the Ainur) can be unsure of what he must do. This would be a great distinction between a Maiar and one of the Ainur. Is Tom indifferent because he knows more than Gandalf? Does this make him one of the Ainur? If so, which one? I had entertained the thought that Tom is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna. The obvious correlations are:
Aule – creator of the Dwarves and craftsman
Yavanna – Mother Nature, robed in green, her thought (music?) of things that grow in the earth.
But, still some things don’t fit. Yavanna was very angry when she figured out that the creatures of Middle Earth, including that Aule’s creations would gnaw, bite and cut down her own creations. They certainly couldn’t have been on the best of terms after that. Could they have made peace with on another? Did Aule have remorse for being so trite with Yavanna and spent years trying to make up for it?
*******Spoiler?*******
The Council of Elrond discussion makes me think he is a Maiar. One thing does stop me from thinking he his one of the Aniur or “god” later in on in the FotR. Some on Council believes that Bombadil would fall if the Dark Lord where to come after him and if kept the Ring in the old forest. Gandalf thinks that Tom just doesn’t care what happens to the Ring. He also points out, the Ring doesn’t have power over him, NOT he has power over the ring. If he were a “god” archetype, then shouldn't it be easy to overcome the Dark Lord? But again, those in the council are only speculating.
Lastly, maybe he’s none of the above and I’ve spend too much energy thinking today.
Luthien (Sarah)
DA
Is Tom indifferent to struggle btween good and evil or does he appear so because he is confident in the final triumph of good?
Tom's power is in his song so, since th publication of The Silmarillion, I've always thought of him being associated The Great Music. He may not know all the details of future history but he knows the eventual outcome - evil will be banished.
Tom is so old, even compared to the Elves, that he must have quite a different perspective on the world. Perhaps he sees the War of The Ring as just another incident in a long series of such events; things will be dark for a while and then recover. He knows he can't solve all the world's ills, he can't protect all of Middle Earth. He's withdrawn into a small area that he thinks he can hold together until the storm is past.
Selmo
In response to DaleAnn's question regarding whether Tom B. can be categorized as "good" or "bad", Selmo posted:
"Tom is so old, even compared to the Elves, that he must have quite a different perspective on the world. Perhaps he sees the War of The Ring as just another incident in a long series of such events; things will be dark for a while and then recover. He knows he can't solve all the world's ills, he can't protect all of Middle Earth. He's withdrawn into a small area that he thinks he can hold together until the storm is past."
I admit, the idea of Tom as a true "neutral" seems to fit best to me. I can't picture him tolerating (or participating in) evil acts in "his" world. He did good for the hobbits, providing aid, shelter, food, for them. Then he sent them on their way. I think Selmo summed Tom up nicely. If there are only 2 categories, Tom must be "Good"; he did no "Bad" actions that I can identify.
Hilary
This is an interesting topic... Well, I must say that at first I was a bit annoyed at Tom Bombadil. I don't know if it was because he was a bit too... merry (?!) but, now that I think about it, it may have been just this! However, as I have considered his character further, I must agree with what you all have said. Since he is so old, he has known what struggles ME has faced, and so perhaps in his wisdom, he knows that good will eventually triumph. But, perhaps there is more than that. I think Tom realizes this is not a battle for him to take any part in; he is the master of the forest, and we see that he does not go beyond his "limits" Why is this? I think he might just realize that his part in the strife is to lend aid and serve as a sort of balancing force, preserving good at least in one part of the world, until evil is vanquished forever. Now, I have a question... what kind of creature is Tom exactly? Since we know he is almost as old as the world itself... but he is not an elf, nor a dwarf.... what is he?
Starlight
I seem to recall reading something about Tom Bombadil being a very old spirit, in a way comparable to the Istari... One of the Maiar?
Pearl
I just had a wild thought...
maybe Tom Bombadil is John Ronald Reuel Tolkien himself
Illadria
I read a post somewhere (must be encroaching old-age, I can't remember if it was here or on another forum) that perhaps Tom was actually Iluvatar- just hanging out, enjoying what he had created, still singing the "music".
Hilary
Illadria and Hilary, you will find both these ideas on the Tom Bombadil study board, under The Adventures of Tom Bombadil poem thread. (Maj note* The TB study has been copied to the study forum)
Glor
First, Illadria, in one of his letters, Tolkien wrote that the character most like him is Faramir. Sorry to squelch your TB theory!
Two ideas on this:
1. Maybe Tom Bombadil has no power or ability to affect the course of Middle-earth in those terms. Doesn't he say somewhere that he can't go past a certain point, that he must stay within a certain distance of the woods? Sure, he saves the hobbits from the Barrow Wrights. But any futher than that is outside his realm, geographically and being-wise. Perhaps compassion for flesh and blood entities isn't part of his essence. Singing, dancing, laughing, loving Goldberry and being caretaker for the woods is the limit of his existence. Remember, the Ring has absolutely ZERO effect on Tom. He plays with it and, irony of ironies, makes IT disappear! It's a toy to him. And maybe this war of good vs. evil is a game to him.
2. Rather than ignorance of the doings of M-e, maybe Tom knows Everything. From what I gather, Tom is, if not one of the Ainur, one of the immortals -- a god of sorts, though the word doesn't suit him. Going off on a tangent for a moment.... Why does God permit evil? Why doesn't he stop it? Maybe he sees the Big Picture and understands why it must be. When you get an infestation of ants, you kill them, right? You kinda know they have a right to live, but not in your home. The lives of a bunch of ants just aren't as important as keeping your home germ- and disease-free. You see a bigger picture. Well, maybe God -- and Tom -- see THE Big Picture, and this war must be fought. For whatever cosmic reason, evil (Sauron) cannot be simply wiped out. They're necessary. What about Karma, reaping what you sow? Maybe the Hobbits are paying for centuries living in peaceful ignorance of anything outside the Shire.
Diana
Tom Bombadil is such an enigma in LotR. I used to get so worked up wondering why Tolkien even wrote him into the story. I have thought of a few reasons. First, I think Tolkien enjoyed writing stories about him so, putting him in the LofR was a way to for all of us to enjoy his musings. Secondly, his role was to be a safe harbor (1 point for “good”) and defender (and another). There are many characters in LofR that are indifferent… the elves heading to the Grey Havens. Tom does seem to care, but like Gildor understands it is not his “role” to get involved.
Another reason Tom doesn’t get involved is his enchantment with Goldberry. Couold it be that Goldberry has him so enchanted that he doesn’t even care about its power? He’s got everything he wants! I wonder how he became so enchanted. Was it from her singing or dancing? I know that “elf” Thingol became enchanted with “Maiar” Melian and could not go further on his journey with his people (giving up his leadership and power). “Man” Beren is enchanted by “half-elf/half-Maiar” Luthien through her dancing. How did Tom become enchanted? I also get the feeling that Tolkien felt this kind of enchantment in life as they testified on their epitaph Edith (Luthien) and John Ronald Reuel (Beren) Tolkien.
I still can’t talk about Tom without wondering who he might be. Although, I think all we will ever be able to do is eliminate what he is not. I had some theories at one time that I’ll share. It also explains why he might be “indifferent.” LotR “Master of the wood, water, and hill “…The found that he had now wondered into strange regions beyond their memory and their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore;” …I am old. Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before big people, and saw the little people arriving.” Could this be In the early times for the story of Valaquenta? This easily could make him one of the Ainur or Maiar. If is one of the Ainur, he was a part of the music of the Ainur and knows his own part.
From the Sil: Ainulindale -The Ainur know much of was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store…"
If he is one of the Ainur, then he knows part he sang, but does not all. Does it excuse him from being indifferent? I think it would be wonderful if I knew that “exactly what part I sang.” If I knew the outcome, I might seem indifferent to those in peril.
Gandalf is Maiar (lesser than one of the Ainur) can be unsure of what he must do. This would be a great distinction between a Maiar and one of the Ainur. Is Tom indifferent because he knows more than Gandalf? Does this make him one of the Ainur? If so, which one? I had entertained the thought that Tom is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna. The obvious correlations are:
Aule – creator of the Dwarves and craftsman
Yavanna – Mother Nature, robed in green, her thought (music?) of things that grow in the earth.
But, still some things don’t fit. Yavanna was very angry when she figured out that the creatures of Middle Earth, including that Aule’s creations would gnaw, bite and cut down her own creations. They certainly couldn’t have been on the best of terms after that. Could they have made peace with on another? Did Aule have remorse for being so trite with Yavanna and spent years trying to make up for it?
*******Spoiler?*******
The Council of Elrond discussion makes me think he is a Maiar. One thing does stop me from thinking he his one of the Aniur or “god” later in on in the FotR. Some on Council believes that Bombadil would fall if the Dark Lord where to come after him and if kept the Ring in the old forest. Gandalf thinks that Tom just doesn’t care what happens to the Ring. He also points out, the Ring doesn’t have power over him, NOT he has power over the ring. If he were a “god” archetype, then shouldn't it be easy to overcome the Dark Lord? But again, those in the council are only speculating.
Lastly, maybe he’s none of the above and I’ve spend too much energy thinking today.
Luthien (Sarah)