CONTINUOUS DISCUSSION: Sauron's Form

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 4/27/2003 9:37 PM

by Marta Aguado	Decipher Cards
by Ivan Cavini	New Line

During the Last Debate, Gandalf says:

"If it (The Ring) is destroyed, then he (Sauron) will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can forsee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."

I must not have let this thought sink in on my previous readings! I always thought that Sauron was completely and utterly destroyed! This sounds like the worst kind of punishment you can imagine!

Then Gandalf also makes this comment: "Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary."

I know Sauron was Melkor/Morgoth's lieutenant in earlier Ages, but Morgoth has been sent to the Abyss. Is this a hint that he could escape?

And Who is Sauron serving? The ring, itself?

I tend to think that any other evils would seem very minor compared to the havoc and anguish that Morgoth and Sauron inflected on Arda.

I don't really have any other questions on this, but wished to share it with all of you and leave it open because we will be discussing this as we move through Book 6.

During The Two Towers Study, there was an excellent discussion of Sauron's form. Here is the link to that discussion:
tolkiensring.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=study2&action=display&thread=1106

[Stormrider]

From: Merlin the mad Sent: 4/28/2003 3:33 PM
It seems evident to me that Melkor/Morgoth is THE Satan figure of Middle-earth mythology. His being banished to some sort of abyss beyond the confines of the physical world only means that he cannot come back here: not that his presence cannot be felt, ergo his influence. I do not know the exact catholic doctrine of Satan: whether or not he is actually IN the world of men, or just an influence. Mormons believe that Satan is a fallen spirit being, actually HERE (along with all of his fallen followers) and constantly at war with God's work. In either case, I think that to Tolkien, Melkor/Morgoth (as Lucifer-fallen) is STILL the real evil force at work in the world. Perhaps while Sauron was carousing (during the 2nd and 3rd ages) as the champion of evil, he was more powerful than anything else - including his banished master, Morgoth. But in the interim, Middle-earth has become the modern world: and a returned Melkor/Morgoth (at least partially) would have greatly reduced powers compared to what he wielded in the First Age. Sauron will never (according to the words of Gandalf) attain to more than being a spite-filled shadow of malice: his master controls anything that he is still capable of doing. (Which, we hope, is not very much.)

MtM

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From: sparrow Sent: 4/30/2003 8:08 AM
BB wrote: The idea of an "eye" is being used by Tolkien to tap into a deep unconscious...

Interesting point - after all, the eyes are the windows to the soul - I am equally intrigued by this idea and Colleen's idea that the Lidless Eye could be the Morgul Stone.

BB also wrote: the Valar send out only the 5 istari as a reponse to this threat...and as such only one of these rescues the day by a thread. Though there is very limited evidence of this, I would posit that each of the istari had a role; clearly, Gandalfs was the greatest. Remember Radagast's cameo appearance in FotR? What might have happened had Radagast not delivered this communique?

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From: sparrow Sent: 4/30/2003 9:38 AM
But I was reading another thread: which accounted for all the seeing stones and it did not mention a Morgul Stone. Colleen, could you please explain to me (who still has a lot to learn about Middle Earth) about the Morgul Stone?

Sparrow

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From: Colleen Sent: 4/30/2003 11:33 AM
The Morgul stone is the same as the Ithil stone. It was long suspected that the Ithil stone was in Sauron's posession, I suppose when Minas Ithil was renamed to Minas Morgul, the reference to the stone changed as well.

Colleen

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From: sparrow Sent: 4/30/2003 12:08 PM
Ooooh! I saw the reference to the Ithil stone, and just didn't make the connection. Thanks for clearing that up for me.