Wk8 Bk6 Ch1: Cirith Ungol Two Watchers

[Stormrider]

From: Stormridr (Original Message) Sent: 5/11/2003 9:21 PM

As Sam observed the Tower of Cirith Ungol, he suddenly realized with shock that it was built to keep the enemies IN Mordor--not OUT. It was built by the men of Gondor after the Last Alliance to keep an eye on Sauron's land where many of his slaves and creatures still lurked. However, the Lord of the Ringwraiths took control of it and used it to keep Sauron's slaves from escaping Mordor.

As Sam tries to enter the Tower of Cirith Ungol, he is stopped. He felt a shock, as if he had run into some web like Shelob's only invisible. He could see no obstacle, but something too strong for his will to overcome barred the way. He looked about, and then within the shadow of the gate he saw the Two Watchers.

Then Tolkien describes the Two Watchers. What caught my attention was this passage: They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone, immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit of evil vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy. Visible or invisible none could pass unheeded. They would forbid his entry, or his escape.

Sam took out the Phial of Galadriel and held it up. For a moment Sam caught a glitter in the black stone of their eyes, the very malice of which made him quail; but slowly he felt their will waver and crumble into fear. As soon as Sam gets by them, their vigilance snapped back into place and a shrill cry issued from their heads.

Hmmmm! These were originally built by the Men of Westernesse. Did the Two Watchers seem this evil when Gondor was still in control of them or did Sauron and his Captain make them more evil to fit their purposes?

What was it about the Phial of Galadriel that broke the vigilance of the Two Watchers?

Shagrat made a comment that a tark (vulgar form of tarkil meaning one of Númenorean descent) got past the Watchers. How did the Men of Westernesse control or pass by the Two Watchers?

What knowledge, skills, crafts, did the Men of Westernesse have to create the Two Watchers? They seem so powerful as if they had been created by powers mightier than those of mere men.

When Sam first slipped past the Two Watchers, a shrill cry and bells clanged. They did again when Sam and Frodo passed through them a second time. So what took so long for the Ringwraith to come to the Tower to check out the break-in?

[Stormrider]

From: DaleAnn Sent: 5/15/2003 5:03 AM
I don't know the answer to all of your questions...but I'll take a stab at a few things. After I skimmed through Appendix A, but didn't locate any reference, I looked at Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle earth, which said that "they barred entry or exit to any enemy unless he had a stronger will than they..."
This leads me to a few possibilities. The first is that the Watchers didn't differentiate between good and evil exactly. Perhaps, they simply guarded against the enemy of whoever held the tower.
Their "evilness" could have been "programed in" so to speak by the Numenoreans. If the watchers handed out daisies when each enemy approached, how good would they have been to keep the enemy at bay?
--DA

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From: sparrow Sent: 5/16/2003 12:25 PM
OK. The Phial of Galadrial held the light of the evening star. Wasn't this the last remnant of light from a Silmaril? or what? (I was thinking from the Two Trees but the Encyclopedia of Arda said their last fruit and flower were used to make the sun and moon.) In any case, maybe Sam's use of the light alerted the watchers, indifferent to good and evil but able to measure strength of will, that something bigger was at work here.
Maybe when the Numenorians were in control of the tower, they were able to pass freely by the watchers because the Men were the Masters. Were the orcs able to pass now that Sauron is in control?

I have not read LotR enough times to have it straight in my head everywhere everybody was at various points in the story. What was going on elsewhere while Sam and Frodo were at Cirith Ungol? Was this the same time as Helm's Deep? If so, how many Nazgul were there? Could it be that Sauron was so caught off guard by Sam's and Frodo's arrival that it took some juggling to get a Nazgul out there?
Regards,
Sparrow

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From: Kendal Sent: 5/17/2003 2:57 PM
Stormridr,

I am just wondering why you have the two watchers as Numenorean? I don't know if one of the other books talks more about them and what Tolkien had in mind for there origins. But from reading just the trilogy I got the feeling that the sculptures were made by the Nazgul or Sauron, or at least the putting of evil spirits into them. I thought they were later additions to the old fort after it had been captured by the Nazgul. Because they are "vulture-faces" on page 218, I thought they were not Gondorean where they would use noble birds like the eagle as watcher guardians, right? The Gondor type Numenoreans were of the faithful kind that still believed in the Valar and were allies to the Elves so I guess I never thought of them as having vulture guardians the way the Black Numenoreans might. So it is just my guess maybe that the guardian, evil birdlike forms were added later. Does Tolkien say anything on this?

[Stormrider]

From: Storrmrider Sent: 5/17/2003 10:18 PM
Kendal:

The entire quote from the Chapter "The Tower of Cirith Ungol" is:

As he gazed at it suddenly Sam understood, almost with a shock , that this stronghold had been built not to keep enemies out of Mordor, but to keep them in. It was indeed one of the works of Gondor long ago, an eastern outpost of the defences of Ithilien, made when, after the Last Alliance, Men of Westernesse kept watch on the evil land of Sauron where his creatures still lurked. But as with Narchost and Carchost, the Towers of the Teeth, so here too the vigilance had falied, and treachery had yileded up the Tower to the Lord of the Ringwraiths, and now for long years it had been held by evil things. Since his return to Mordor, Sauron had found it useful; for he had few servants but many slaves of fear, and still its chief purpose as of old was to prevent escape from Mordor. Though if an enemy were so rash as to try to enter that land secretely, then it was also a last unsleeping guard against any that might pass the vigilance of Morgul and of Shelob.

Then later in the Chapter when Sam is eavesdropping on Shagrat and Snagga, Snagga said:

He [Gorbag] told you more than once that the most dangerous of these spies was still loose, and you wouldn't listen. And you won't listen now. Gorbag was right, I tell you. There's a great figther about, one of those bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy tarks [debased orcish form of tarkil which means 'man of Gondor' or one of Númenorean descent-this information is from the footnote leading me to the Appendices]. He's coming here, I tell you. You heard the bell. He's got past the Watchers, and that's tark's work.

So the tark knew how to get past the Watchers. The Watchers were built by the Númenoreans to keep the evil agents of Sauron in Mordor. The orcs knew that the men of Gondor had built the tower and Watchers.

Stormrider

[Stormrider]

From: Kendal Sent: 5/18/2003 12:05 AM
Thank you, Storrmrider1

So Tolkien does not really tell us if the Watchers were part of the first, the Gondorean fort, as I read it. So I am stuck on the point of using vultures as symbols for Numenor, somehow that still strikes me as all wrong. But if a Tark is a Gondor warrior, does getting past the Watchers mean that there is some secret password or ritual that the Gondoreans still know after thousands of years? Because the area of Minis Ithil and Cirith Ungol were captured in 2002, and the quest reached Cirith Ungol in 3019.

I see that the Orcs go in and out of the gate with no trouble at all, I always thought because they have the same evil essence to them that they were recognized by the watchers as friendly to the Dark Tower. So if these vultures were at first Gondorean, then it looks like that someone had to change the Watchers from keeping Orcs and evil creatures out of the fort to letting them alone but warning of, or stopping the "good" guys. If the forces of Sauron have the power to change the basic function of the Watchers, wouldn't they also be able to change the password?

Also, I don't remember there being magical like guardians ever mentioned as Numenorean Gondor technologies any other place, sounds like black sorceror's work to me. The Dwarves and Elves have magical gates, but the folk of Gondor? Well, maybe, but then why not use watchers where they would really be needed, like at Minis Tirith, or vulture face giants at the Argonath instead of Isildur and Anarion?

So I cannot account for a Tark being able to get through, except maybe by his personal strength of mind or will power, and I think you have a really good point there, but I still would feel unsure of this one. One more problem for me is how would Orcs know that Tarks could get past the watchers anyway, just how many Gondor warriors go up through Cirith Ungol, past Minas Morgul and Shelob? I get a funny picture of Gondorean soldiers just waltzing through the defences of Mordor on a daily base, and strolling through the gates. "Oops! There's the Watchers screaming again, we must have another Tark visiting!"

Especially I have problems where the account talks of the Watchers themselves being actual spirits of evil in the sculptures. Seems like if they were Numenorean, good guy creations to begin with, then a lot of power went into changing them 180 degrees. Maybe so. And maybe the statues were re-carved to have claws and vulture faces and appear monstrous? But Tolkien does not say so, does he, and it seems we may be left here with just our opinions?

Thanks again, a new way of looking at things for me.

[Stormrider]

From: Kendal Sent: 5/18/2003 12:46 AM
After just a quick search of the internet I came up with a site that seems to think there is no way of really knowing who built the Two Watchers.

www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of-arda/Object-index-tables/Object/Two-Watchers.htm

This is not a Tolkien statement, just another of us readers trying to make sense of things Tolkien did not fully explain.

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 5/18/2003 8:16 AM
Kendal:

I don't know any of what I have stated above for sure, I am just going on what was written by Tolkien in the chapter [which I highlighted in red above]. You bring up some more good questions that we need to chew on!

You said: But if a Tark is a Gondor warrior, does getting past the Watchers mean that there is some secret password or ritual that the Gondoreans still know after thousands of years? Because the area of Minis Ithil and Cirith Ungol were captured in 2002, and the quest reached Cirith Ungol in 3019. I have no idea about that but there had to be something that allowed them to pass thru. Perhaps the Gondorians passed the method for getting past the Watchers down thru the ages planning on someday getting the stronghold back in their possession.

You also said: I get a funny picture of Gondorean soldiers just waltzing through the defences of Mordor on a daily base, and strolling through the gates. "Oops! There's the Watchers screaming again, we must have another Tark visiting!" This bothers me, too. I would not think that the Gondorians would set off any alarms or screams if they were passing by the Watchers. Why would they if they knew the password or ritual? The alarm should only sound if the entrant used an unapproved method of entry!

Hmmm...I'm going to have to do some research on this topic. Good points.

Stormrider

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From: William Huggins Sent: 5/18/2003 12:29 PM
Kendal:

I have always had the impression that the orcs had given the statues a "face-lift" to fit their own liking. Another example of that are when the army of the west reached Ephel Dúath and found another old statue:

"The hideous orc-head that was set upon the carven figure was cast down and broken in pieces, and the old king's head was raised and set in its place once more, still crowned with white and golden flowers: and men laboured to wash and pare away all the foul scrawls that orcs had put upon the stone."

Even though they are a brutal race they seem to have some culture and art skills.

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From: Kendal Sent: 5/19/2003 6:05 PM
Storrmrider1:

I see, yes, there are still some questions here! I have a few of the HOME series and I've looked in those for any earlier version of Cirith or Kirith Ungol that says something about the Two Watchers, no soap, maybe in some of the other books. But one thing, in my paperback book of ROTK there is not a footnote about Tarkils and I thought, before you showed me this definition as it being a Gondorean, that a Tark was a wizard because the Orcs seem to think that this Tark would be even more dangerous than an Elf. That makes sense to me because a wizard like Gandalf should be able to break through the power of the watchers with magical superiority like Sam did with the help of Galadriel's phial. Now that it looks like a Tark is a warrior of Gondor and not a wizard, it sure does mess up my interpretation.

I'm also wondering how long Shelob was there. It sounds like she was there before the Orcs took over but I can't see the Gondoreans allowing Her to live in an important pass, even as a stop to Orcs sneaking by, but the place is called the Pass of the Spider. I guess the Gondoreans had their own name earlier and Shelob showed up after the area became dominated by the Nazgul?

William Huggins:

Hello again! Yes, a very good point. The Orcs do have art and, maybe it is in the Hobbit, but Tolkien says that Gobblins, when they took the time, could tunnel and stone work just as well as the Dwarves, and were clever at making complex mechanics. So the Goblin headed statue in Ithilien makes sense in this concern, and maybe even a re done tower top for Minas Morgul. That would be one way of compromising the Two Watchers sculptures at Cirith Ungol, but like Storrmrider1 says, there is still the screaming they do when only "good folk" pass in. More to look for in further readings. Thanks!

[Stormrider]

From: Kendal Sent: 5/22/2003 3:42 PM
I just found an early version of this discussion that might be good to review, it is under the Tolkien's Ring trilogy board.

The LOTR trilogy : The Silent Watchers

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 5/23/2003 7:31 AM
Kendal:

That was an excellent reminder! I had forgotten about that thread. I will make it easier for everyone to find it by posting a link to it below. Just click on the Two Watchers and it will take you there!

Stormrider

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From: Kendal Sent: 6/13/2003 5:55 AM
Re-visiting the "Watchers."

I just got the four volume series, "History of LotR," and in the fourth volume of commentaries and early LotR versions, "The End of the Third Age," Tolkien originally used the term Wizard instead of Tarkil, or tark. So, apparently, the Watchers were to be defeated by the power and skill of a wizard, not a man of Gondor... This makes more sense to me because the episode here indicates that the breaker of the Watchers' will is somehow superior in power or craft to an Elf Lord. I never got the feeling that a "mere" man, even of Numenorean descent, would be more magically powerful than a Lord of Elves, so, having a wizard here would fit the passage better. Why did Tolkien bother changing this in his final version of RotK?

See: "The End of the Third Age," p. 26:

"Where in RotK Snaga declares that 'the great fighter' (Sam) is 'one of those bloody-handed Elves, or one of the filthy tarks,' and that getting past the Watchers is 'tark's work,' [version] C has 'that's Elvish work;' [version] D has 'one of these filthy wizards maybe' and 'that's wizard's work' ('wizard' being changed in pencil [later] to 'tark,' which appears in the second manuscript E as written).

Originally The Silent Watchers were the door wardens of Minas Morgul, not the fortress of Kirith Ungol. note #7, p. 29, "The End of the Third Age."

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 6/15/2003 6:14 AM
Kendal:

I was reading in the HoMe series, too, looking for something on the Watchers! I ran across the same section on Tolkien's definition of tark (tarkil). I wonder why he changed it to Men of Gondor because wizard does make more sense to me, too!

Well, anyway inside the Phial of Galadriel is the light of Ëarendil's star which Galadriel said she retrieved from the waters of her fountain as it shone on it. The light of the star came from the Silmaril of Lúthien which she and Beren had brought back from Morgoth. And of course, the light from the Silmaril came from the two Trees of Valinor! This light would be powerful enough to set fear in those Two Watchers no matter who created them!

Stormrider

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From: Kendal Sent: 6/16/2003 2:48 AM
Storrmrider1:

Yes, whatever Tolkien had in mind about the watchers, the phial certainly held them in check as door wardens, but it was unable to silence these "silent" sentinels, even after it caused the collapse of the gateway arch itself!

I have often wondered what the casting of such great magics (as those I presume were required to create the phial) did to Galadriel. Realizing that the end of the game was upon them -- the Elves would have to leave soon, either because the One would be gone and the Three would fail; or because Sauron, with the One, would resume his conquest of Middle-earth -- did Galadriel put a great deal of her own power, and her Ring power into the phial, just as Sauron put so much of himself into his Ring? A great, but necessary sacrifice on her part, if that was the case. Having refused the total power that possessing the One Ring would have given her, why bother to keep her personal force intact, especially when an expenditure of some of it now, by putting this energy into the phial, might help turn the tide in Mordor? In this speculation, the "diluted" power of a far distant Silmaril, reflected in a pool of water, might not be the main source of the phial's potency.

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 6/16/2003 10:58 PM
Kendal:

You stated: the "diluted" power of a far distant Silmaril, reflected in a pool of water, might not be the main source of the phial's potency. I thought when I read the Galadriel's gift exchange again, that it was a very tiny source of the light from the Two Trees of Valinor and marvelled that the "diluted" power would still have the effect it had on the Watchers! The light from those Two Trees must have been very powerful!

Well, I have to agree that Galadriel would not have anything to lose by putting her own powers into the phial as well. But just what powers did Galadriel possess? Years of knowledge, experience, vision of life the way it is, an inner sight into others minds (some Elves, not all). Did Elves possess any magical powers? I never felt that the Elves had any special "magical" powers other than learning from many years of experience. Perhaps they may have been more fair, beautiful, everlasting, had good health, and were wise as something that Eru had "built" into them when he created them but what powers did they have? Did I miss something?

Perhaps the three Elven Rings of Power gave Elrond and Galadriel more powers (and Gandalf, too, did he need more?) but what kind of powers would they have been given through their Rings? I don't recall anywhere where the powers of these Rings were spelled out. (and, I have not read barely half of the books that I have either, so I may have just not gotten to where it is spelled out!).

Stormrider

[Stormrider]

From: Kendal Sent: 6/17/2003 2:50 AM
This could become quite an involved and complicated discussion, limited only by our RL time restrictions and the depths of our relative, personal endurances. LOL!

You raise a set of most intriguing points and querries, Stormrider. Some of which I have pondered from time to time, while others, frankly, I've never even thought of, and probably, without your stimulation, never would. In such a discussion there is the ever present, and most likely danger of my misreading your intent/ meaning altogether -- in which case most of what I might write here will have little relevance to your initial statement and actual concerns. So, before I get too far along in this effort I'll try to express clearly what I think the major issues are, and then get your feedback as to whether, and in what ways I am misreading, misunderstanding your statements.

Eventually, we might even have to move this particular offshoot of the topic to another, perhaps more appropriate place? Well, lets see how things develope first...

1) "But just what powers did Galadriel possess? Years of knowledge, experience, vision of life the way it is, an inner sight into others minds (some Elves, not all). Did Elves possess any magical powers? I never felt that the Elves had any special "magical" powers other than learning from many years of experience. Perhaps they may have been more fair, beautiful, everlasting, had good health, and were wise as something that Eru had "built" into them when he created them but what powers did they have?" (from Stormrider)

I think, from the very outset we are going to need some agreed upon understandings of what Tolkien meant by the terms "magic" and "power;" likewise we need to know the source of "power" in Ea/ Arda (the undying realms and the mortal lands of Middle-earth taken as a unit). Is there, at its base, only one "power," one source? How does "power" get shared out among all the creatures of Ea/ Arda? Does Ainur "power" differ in some important qualitative way from the "power" of an Elf, or even a Gollum? Or, is this "power" all the same stuff, but the amount of it useable by any given creature something that varies greatly according to whether one is Manwe-Sulimo, or Smeagol-Gollum?

Once we have a consensus understanding of how Tolkien uses "power" in his sub-created world, then a host of lesser, secondary questions may more easily be dealt with. Is there such a thing as one's original, inborn level of "power?" Do the inborn powers of Elves differ from those of Men, Eagles, Ents, Dwarves, Orcs, Trolls, Ainur, tussocks of grass, etc. Is it possible for one type of creature, or one individual, to alter its original, inborn power? Can one's power be increased through processes of learning? Can one's power be increased via technological devices? Does one's power increase only as a function of spiritual enhancement, a direct gift from whatever entity or entities control the source of "power," Eru?

On a tertiary level then, might come such questions as: How did the Elves ever get the power to manipulate the Light of the Trees in the first place? How was Feanor able to create his Gems? How was Celebrimbor able to forge the Rings of Power, and just what sort of "power" enhancements might come from these rings? Was Atanatar-Sauron's Maiar "power" absolutely necessary for the creation of the rings, or did he simply speed the process of their creation by giving out some helpful, time-saving hints?

Was Galadriel born with enough personal "power" to make a Phial? Could Galadriel without the Ring of Adamant have made the Phial? Could any Elf have made a Phial? Could a properly trained, technology assisted Orc, Dwarf, or Man have made such a Phial?

*****

2)" Perhaps the three Elven Rings of Power gave Elrond and Galadriel more powers (and Gandalf, too, did he need more?) but what kind of powers would they have been given through their Rings? I don't recall anywhere where the powers of these Rings were spelled out. (and, I have not read barely half of the books that I have either, so I may have just not gotten to where it is spelled out!)." from Stormrider

Stormrider, I interpret your second set of questions/ statements to be largely bibliographic in nature, that is: Does Tolkien, in whatever source he wrote, give us sufficient data that we can hope to find useful, valid answers to all these questions (or at least some of them)? I think he does. Not easy, direct answers in some cases, but there is enough material availble on "magic" and "power" for us to make a good start. Additionally he does, in three or four seperate places, give us the general parameters of the powers conferred by the Rings. Whether we can resolve all the issues here into nicely-neat packages of total agreement remains doubtful, but it just might be both fun, and educationally profitable to try...

*******

Of course if you wanted just a short statement, quick and dirty about Elves having high "powers" of their own, perhaps akin to the Maiar, take a look at Glorfindel, "mighty in both realms," this side and that. Tolkien was going to number Glorfindel among the Istari and thus have a mixed group of Elven and Ainur "messangers" of hope from Valinor to Middle-earth. So, again, quick and dirty, Tolkien seems to have viewed some Elves as being endowed with innate "power" levels that approximated those of the lesser Ainur. The fact that Glorfindel could kill a Balrog Maia (Silmarillion), that Fingolfin could permanently wound Morgoth himself, argues, in my mind, that some of the High Elves did possess a near Maiar like "power."

In his later versions of LotR, JRRT, did not play this "power" of Glorfindel to its full extent, that might complicate the stroryline too much, and require writing more scenes for the Elf, perhaps even making him a major Fellowship character whose magical powers would sort of compete with those of Gandalf and lessen the role of the wizard. Otherwise, sending Glorfindel as one of the Nine Walkers into Mordor would make good sense. But, even though he made small use of Glorfindel and his near Maiar "powers," I think Tolkien, in the published LoTR version, still retains the high, innate "power" concept for Glorfindel. Here JRRT, excuses Glorfindel from going to Mordor, but still tells us something about the high "power" status of this Elf. "... an Elf Lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him." (Gandalf to Elrond, "The Ring Goes South"). So, even though there is a limit to Glorfindel's personal power, still it is HIS own power we are talking about, not a Ring-made power, as Glorfindel has no ring. This implies to me that Glorfindel had an inborn "power" of a surpassing kind, even among the Elves (he did chase the High Nazgul off the field of battle in the far north before the realm of Anor collapsed). So just with this example alone, I feel that some Elves have more inborn "power" than other Elves, and from this, may we also assume that the other Elven leaders likewise had a good deal of personal "power" themselves?

Thanks Stormrider! I'll try to work up some more on this topic, with full citations from the HoMe series where I can find suitable evidence.

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 6/17/2003 7:07 AM
Kendal:

Good idea! We should try and define some of these terms! This will keep us busy now! I may just get a good chance to start looking a little deeper into the many books I have that haven't been cracked yet! lol!

I forgot about Glorfindel being a High Elven Lord! But just how much more "power" did he have compared to the other Elves? Good questions you put forth there!

I have a few more final touches on my last ROTK study chapter "The Grey Havens" and then I will try to join you in digging for the answers to some of these questions. So please pardon me this week if I don't get back to this topic right away.

Stormrider

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From: Storrmrider Sent: 6/18/2003 6:56 AM
Kendal:

When I post the discussions for "The Grey Havens" I was planning on creating one for the Three Elven Rings of Power so we can continue that discussion there! As far as carrying on the discussion for what powers did the Races of Arda possess, which ones they improved on thru learning and training, which ones were given to them, which ones were magic...etc. etc. I thought we might want to take those over to the "Entities of Arda" forum and title it "Powers of the Races" or something like that!

And by the way, I meant to say that you did get the gist of what I was saying in my ramblings above. As a matter of fact you stated them more clearly and in much more depth than I did! Thank you for that!

Stormy