Post by Andorinha on Jan 19, 2009 8:02:00 GMT -6
Sacrifices(?) of Elven Women
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Message 1 of 14 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/5/2002 12:35 PM
I finished Chapter 19 in The Silmarillion at 2:00 o'clock this morning and thought it a rather nice love story between Beren and Luthien, but I was also struck by its reptitiveness of the love story between Aragorn and Arwen, told in Appendix A in The Return of the King. Both depict the choice of an undying Elvish woman to become mortal and eventually to suffer death because of her love for a Man.
Of course, to suffer the same death as Men is not necessarily a "bad" thing since Tolkien does mention in several different places that death is Iluvatar's gift to Men and that the Elves know not what befalls Men's souls after death, suggesting that there is perhaps some heavenly reward of even greater value than the undying nature of the Elves. I suppose we could then say that acquisition of a mortal soul is actually a reward to Arwen and to Luthien for the strength and purity of their love as well as their loyalty to Aragorn and Beren. Still, having two different love stories so parallel with each other leads me to wonder if Tolkien had settled on this particular formula for love between Elves and Men; if so, I'm just as glad that we don't have a whole series of such stories. Their outcomes would be far too predictable.
Also, am I forgetting any important exceptions, or are the admirable women in Tolkien almost always Elvin while most of the strong males are human? (Note that I do say "most" and "almost" for this depiction may be more of a trend than an absolute.)
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Message 2 of 14 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/5/2002 12:45 PM
I believe there was the love of Eowyn for Faramir when she met him in the house of healing. They are both mortal. And she did have a crush on Aragorn first. I believe that Tolkien used the fact that a great sacrifice must be made by Elves to commit to a mortal, or esle we may have a great many more Half-Elven running around then there were.
Glor
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Message 3 of 14 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 3/5/2002 1:30 PM
BillFuller,
I can see what your saying, but don't forget the second union of Elfmaid with an Atani that of Idril Celebrindal and Tuor, to make a total of three such unions. I've always wondered what the significant nature of the number three is in Tolkien's wrtting there always seems to be three important parts played out in each group of his tales. And no I don't need a catechism about the Holy Trinity puu-lease. i think that number represents a meaning to help us learn Tolkien's Mythology. Sort of like a drum beating an antediluvian cadence if you will that follows through his vast histories. A common theme to all the great histories so that they are homogeneous and not so alien even though vast stretches of time seperate them. I find that all the stories from the Ainulindale' onward have a similar theme of great glory followed by great sadness, the "Long Slow Defeat" And in the end always the sacrifices as you pointed out. The main subject will always seem to have to give up somthing in order to save somthing. Just somthing I noted when you brought up sacrifices, Sorry to ramble.
Namarie,
Iarwain Ben-adar
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Message 4 of 14 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 3/5/2002 8:09 PM
I have been wondering about the decision to become Man/Woman instead of remaining Elven. It seems there is some great enticement for them to become human; such as, love.
Ok...I guess I can see why they would want to do it....but how does it come about? Do they just up and say, "OK, I want to be human and denounce my Elvishness!" or is there some ritual or ceremony or a ruling by an Ainur or Iluvatar for them to be able to do this? And why not remain Elven and enjoy many human loves in your lifetime? Are they also curious about the gift of death?
Stormrider
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Message 5 of 14 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/5/2002 8:22 PM
Stormrider,
It seems to happen on a case by case basis - the incidence of Elven-Human marriage is rare enough that there is no rule or pattern.
If I recall correctly, Luthien gets special permission to die. She does not want to be separated from Beren, and so follows him into death.
In the case of Tuor and Idril, he (the human) receives special permission to be counted among the Eldar (elves), and goes to live in Valinor - the only human to do so.
There is then a problem with their various offspring - of which kindred are they. Finally Elrond and his brother Elros are told by the Valinor to choose one or the other. They can't be both. Elros becomes human (he is the ancestor of the Numenorean kings, and the source of their "high" blood). Elrond is an elf. BUT. It is decreed that his children shall also be Elven, as long as Elrond remains in Middle Earth. When he leaves, and sails west, they must go with him or they will become mortals.
So Arwen becomes a mortal when her father sails away. That is why she tells Aragorn, when he is on his deathbed (Appendix A) that it is too late for her and she can no longer sail west. Her choice was made long before.
Hope this helps!
Megn1
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Message 6 of 14 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/5/2002 9:53 PM
Megn1, think you answered the question I had when I read Bill's post. Let me see if I have it right.
My question: Just because an Elf chooses to beome mortal in order to marry a human does this guarentee that they will then have a "humas soul" that experience death (and what ever comes after) in the same way a human experience it as Illuvatar's gift to men?
However, it seems that Arwen, because her father was a Half-Elven who chose to be an Elf, has the opportunity to choose to be Elf or Human--having attributes of both. She chooses to be Human and, therefore, is eligible for the gift of death. Does this make sense?
MusicMom
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Message 7 of 14 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/5/2002 10:49 PM
Perhaps a problem here with alliances made between Humans and Elves. Check if you will the meeting between Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth and Legolas (gosh he's SOOOO cute in the movie - that's fer DaleAnn).
Something peculiar is going on here when Legolas addresses Imrahil that leads me to suspect more than just the "prime three" intermarriages of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Earendil and Elwing.
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Message 8 of 14 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 3/6/2002 4:52 AM
Thank you. That helps. It just seemed like there should be something more involved and complicated to it! OK an Elf can become human, but the humand cannot become Elven, right. Tuor only had permission to live in Valinor but did not become an Elf, am I right on that assumption?
Stormrider
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Message 9 of 14 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/6/2002 8:57 AM
Stormrider,
Don't have my book in front of me, but my recollection is that the Silmarillion says that Tuor was counted among the elder kindred (meaning the elves). So I guess he was allowed to become an elf.
Karo6,
You're determined to make this complicated, aren't you? I wouldn't expect anything less...
Yes, when Legolas meets Prince Imrahil for the first time he makes a comment about him seeming to have elvish blood in him, a sign that Nimrodel's people did not immediately sail west, but had spent some time in his country. The implication being that there had been some inter-marriage. Yet the appendices tell us that there has only been three marriages between the eldar and the edain.
This used to bug me, too. I have studied the problem, and have heard three possible explanaitions.
1. Tolkien goofed.
2. Legolas goofed. The elvishness he was detecting in Imrahil was actually his Numenorean descent. There's some elvish blood in them, through Elros.
3. The words "eldar" and "edain" do not apply to all of the elves and men, but only certain kindreds. Only three marriages happened between these "high" groups, but that doesn't mean that other marriages couldn't have happened between other, lesser peoples.
We won't even consider #1.
As for #2, Legolas has been travelling for months with Aragorn, so he should understand the Numenorean lineage, and not confuse it for Nimrodel. Also, Legolas should know that there have only been two marriages (to that point), and that all the descendents are accounted for. What was he thinking?
Number 3 seems plausible, until you really consider it. If these kind of marriages are commonplace, then they would create a whole race of half-elven. What is there destiny? Imrahil's people seem to be mortals, just like other men. What about this "elvish blood?" Is the love of these lesser beings less profound, so that they are content to be sundered by death and don't cause the kind of headaches for the Valar that Luthien and Tuor have been? Huh?
MusicGrandMom,
I don't think humans are the only ones who have "souls." It would seem the elves do to. When an elf is slain, their body dies, and their soul goes to the halls of Mandos, from which they sometimes can return. The difference between men and elves is that when men die their souls leave the Arda altogether - something the elves can't do (except with special permission, apparently). Even the Valar don't know what becomes of humans after they die - we are told that Illuvitar holds some future for them. One of the ironies is that each of the kindreds ends up envying the other.
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Message 10 of 14 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/6/2002 8:38 PM
Each of the kindred end up envying each other......VERY KEWL.......
The gift of Illuvitar to mortals was the ability to die. His gift to the Eldar was immortality. Who then can know the mind of Illuvitar? He told the Valar, that they need be patient and sing his themes to understand. His intention was for the Valar to understand both mortality and immortality, and that his "thought' would bring them to a greater understanding of both.
Who then knows the thought of Illuvitar?? Not me!!!
Glor.
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Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 3/7/2002 5:56 AM
Megn1, I looked up Imrahil in Unfinished Tales and Peoples of Middle Earth. The unpublished story of his ancestry is that Galador, the first Lord of Dol Amroth, was the son of a Numenorean (Imrazor) and a Elven lady (Mithrellas). She left him when Galdor was young. My supposition is that Galdor chose to become a man just like Elros. Imrahil was in the 22nd generation removed. Therefore, even though the Elven blood shows, he and other ancestors are human. Which leads me to a question. Elrond's descendants had a choice of being Elven or human. Why didn't Elros' descendants have the same chioce?
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Message 12 of 14 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/7/2002 10:17 AM
DaleAnn,
Thanks for the info on Imrahil. I've never read "Unfinished Tales." I need to add it to my (long) list.
So there was another marriage with an elf. Was Mithrellas not part of the "eldar"? (Without my copy of Sil handy I can't remember all the categories of elves.) If so, that would explain why the Appendices could still talk about there being only three marriages between the eldar and the edain. And it sounds like she walked away from the relationship. I guess if there is a divorce than we don't have to deal the the question of where the couple spends eternity.
You raise a good question about the descendents of Elros - one that I think they themselves raised repeatedly through the years!
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Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 3/8/2002 3:39 AM
Sorry, Megn1, I meant to include that Mithrellas was of "lesser Silvan" origin.
One of the things that amazes me the most about Tolkien is that he wrote a "backstory" or explanation for almost every detail in LotR. Imrahil's family tree came out of the need to explain the comment by Legolas.
Ok, everybody, listen up. I have a 13 year old daughter. Guess what I have lived with every single waking moment since 12/20/01 when she first saw FotR!!!! I thought I found a place of refuge!!!!! Please, take pity on me!
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Message 14 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 11/24/2002 1:43 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.
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Message 1 of 14 in Discussion
From: BillFuller
Sent: 3/5/2002 12:35 PM
I finished Chapter 19 in The Silmarillion at 2:00 o'clock this morning and thought it a rather nice love story between Beren and Luthien, but I was also struck by its reptitiveness of the love story between Aragorn and Arwen, told in Appendix A in The Return of the King. Both depict the choice of an undying Elvish woman to become mortal and eventually to suffer death because of her love for a Man.
Of course, to suffer the same death as Men is not necessarily a "bad" thing since Tolkien does mention in several different places that death is Iluvatar's gift to Men and that the Elves know not what befalls Men's souls after death, suggesting that there is perhaps some heavenly reward of even greater value than the undying nature of the Elves. I suppose we could then say that acquisition of a mortal soul is actually a reward to Arwen and to Luthien for the strength and purity of their love as well as their loyalty to Aragorn and Beren. Still, having two different love stories so parallel with each other leads me to wonder if Tolkien had settled on this particular formula for love between Elves and Men; if so, I'm just as glad that we don't have a whole series of such stories. Their outcomes would be far too predictable.
Also, am I forgetting any important exceptions, or are the admirable women in Tolkien almost always Elvin while most of the strong males are human? (Note that I do say "most" and "almost" for this depiction may be more of a trend than an absolute.)
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Message 2 of 14 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/5/2002 12:45 PM
I believe there was the love of Eowyn for Faramir when she met him in the house of healing. They are both mortal. And she did have a crush on Aragorn first. I believe that Tolkien used the fact that a great sacrifice must be made by Elves to commit to a mortal, or esle we may have a great many more Half-Elven running around then there were.
Glor
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Message 3 of 14 in Discussion
From: MSN NicknameIarwainBen-adar1
Sent: 3/5/2002 1:30 PM
BillFuller,
I can see what your saying, but don't forget the second union of Elfmaid with an Atani that of Idril Celebrindal and Tuor, to make a total of three such unions. I've always wondered what the significant nature of the number three is in Tolkien's wrtting there always seems to be three important parts played out in each group of his tales. And no I don't need a catechism about the Holy Trinity puu-lease. i think that number represents a meaning to help us learn Tolkien's Mythology. Sort of like a drum beating an antediluvian cadence if you will that follows through his vast histories. A common theme to all the great histories so that they are homogeneous and not so alien even though vast stretches of time seperate them. I find that all the stories from the Ainulindale' onward have a similar theme of great glory followed by great sadness, the "Long Slow Defeat" And in the end always the sacrifices as you pointed out. The main subject will always seem to have to give up somthing in order to save somthing. Just somthing I noted when you brought up sacrifices, Sorry to ramble.
Namarie,
Iarwain Ben-adar
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Reply
Message 4 of 14 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 3/5/2002 8:09 PM
I have been wondering about the decision to become Man/Woman instead of remaining Elven. It seems there is some great enticement for them to become human; such as, love.
Ok...I guess I can see why they would want to do it....but how does it come about? Do they just up and say, "OK, I want to be human and denounce my Elvishness!" or is there some ritual or ceremony or a ruling by an Ainur or Iluvatar for them to be able to do this? And why not remain Elven and enjoy many human loves in your lifetime? Are they also curious about the gift of death?
Stormrider
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Reply
Message 5 of 14 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/5/2002 8:22 PM
Stormrider,
It seems to happen on a case by case basis - the incidence of Elven-Human marriage is rare enough that there is no rule or pattern.
If I recall correctly, Luthien gets special permission to die. She does not want to be separated from Beren, and so follows him into death.
In the case of Tuor and Idril, he (the human) receives special permission to be counted among the Eldar (elves), and goes to live in Valinor - the only human to do so.
There is then a problem with their various offspring - of which kindred are they. Finally Elrond and his brother Elros are told by the Valinor to choose one or the other. They can't be both. Elros becomes human (he is the ancestor of the Numenorean kings, and the source of their "high" blood). Elrond is an elf. BUT. It is decreed that his children shall also be Elven, as long as Elrond remains in Middle Earth. When he leaves, and sails west, they must go with him or they will become mortals.
So Arwen becomes a mortal when her father sails away. That is why she tells Aragorn, when he is on his deathbed (Appendix A) that it is too late for her and she can no longer sail west. Her choice was made long before.
Hope this helps!
Megn1
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Message 6 of 14 in Discussion
From: MusicMom
Sent: 3/5/2002 9:53 PM
Megn1, think you answered the question I had when I read Bill's post. Let me see if I have it right.
My question: Just because an Elf chooses to beome mortal in order to marry a human does this guarentee that they will then have a "humas soul" that experience death (and what ever comes after) in the same way a human experience it as Illuvatar's gift to men?
However, it seems that Arwen, because her father was a Half-Elven who chose to be an Elf, has the opportunity to choose to be Elf or Human--having attributes of both. She chooses to be Human and, therefore, is eligible for the gift of death. Does this make sense?
MusicMom
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Message 7 of 14 in Discussion
From: Karo6
Sent: 3/5/2002 10:49 PM
Perhaps a problem here with alliances made between Humans and Elves. Check if you will the meeting between Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth and Legolas (gosh he's SOOOO cute in the movie - that's fer DaleAnn).
Something peculiar is going on here when Legolas addresses Imrahil that leads me to suspect more than just the "prime three" intermarriages of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Earendil and Elwing.
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Reply
Message 8 of 14 in Discussion
From: Stormrider
Sent: 3/6/2002 4:52 AM
Thank you. That helps. It just seemed like there should be something more involved and complicated to it! OK an Elf can become human, but the humand cannot become Elven, right. Tuor only had permission to live in Valinor but did not become an Elf, am I right on that assumption?
Stormrider
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Reply
Message 9 of 14 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/6/2002 8:57 AM
Stormrider,
Don't have my book in front of me, but my recollection is that the Silmarillion says that Tuor was counted among the elder kindred (meaning the elves). So I guess he was allowed to become an elf.
Karo6,
You're determined to make this complicated, aren't you? I wouldn't expect anything less...
Yes, when Legolas meets Prince Imrahil for the first time he makes a comment about him seeming to have elvish blood in him, a sign that Nimrodel's people did not immediately sail west, but had spent some time in his country. The implication being that there had been some inter-marriage. Yet the appendices tell us that there has only been three marriages between the eldar and the edain.
This used to bug me, too. I have studied the problem, and have heard three possible explanaitions.
1. Tolkien goofed.
2. Legolas goofed. The elvishness he was detecting in Imrahil was actually his Numenorean descent. There's some elvish blood in them, through Elros.
3. The words "eldar" and "edain" do not apply to all of the elves and men, but only certain kindreds. Only three marriages happened between these "high" groups, but that doesn't mean that other marriages couldn't have happened between other, lesser peoples.
We won't even consider #1.
As for #2, Legolas has been travelling for months with Aragorn, so he should understand the Numenorean lineage, and not confuse it for Nimrodel. Also, Legolas should know that there have only been two marriages (to that point), and that all the descendents are accounted for. What was he thinking?
Number 3 seems plausible, until you really consider it. If these kind of marriages are commonplace, then they would create a whole race of half-elven. What is there destiny? Imrahil's people seem to be mortals, just like other men. What about this "elvish blood?" Is the love of these lesser beings less profound, so that they are content to be sundered by death and don't cause the kind of headaches for the Valar that Luthien and Tuor have been? Huh?
MusicGrandMom,
I don't think humans are the only ones who have "souls." It would seem the elves do to. When an elf is slain, their body dies, and their soul goes to the halls of Mandos, from which they sometimes can return. The difference between men and elves is that when men die their souls leave the Arda altogether - something the elves can't do (except with special permission, apparently). Even the Valar don't know what becomes of humans after they die - we are told that Illuvitar holds some future for them. One of the ironies is that each of the kindreds ends up envying the other.
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Reply
Message 10 of 14 in Discussion
From: Glorfindle
Sent: 3/6/2002 8:38 PM
Each of the kindred end up envying each other......VERY KEWL.......
The gift of Illuvitar to mortals was the ability to die. His gift to the Eldar was immortality. Who then can know the mind of Illuvitar? He told the Valar, that they need be patient and sing his themes to understand. His intention was for the Valar to understand both mortality and immortality, and that his "thought' would bring them to a greater understanding of both.
Who then knows the thought of Illuvitar?? Not me!!!
Glor.
_________________________________________
Reply
Message 11 of 14 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 3/7/2002 5:56 AM
Megn1, I looked up Imrahil in Unfinished Tales and Peoples of Middle Earth. The unpublished story of his ancestry is that Galador, the first Lord of Dol Amroth, was the son of a Numenorean (Imrazor) and a Elven lady (Mithrellas). She left him when Galdor was young. My supposition is that Galdor chose to become a man just like Elros. Imrahil was in the 22nd generation removed. Therefore, even though the Elven blood shows, he and other ancestors are human. Which leads me to a question. Elrond's descendants had a choice of being Elven or human. Why didn't Elros' descendants have the same chioce?
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Reply
Message 12 of 14 in Discussion
From: megn1
Sent: 3/7/2002 10:17 AM
DaleAnn,
Thanks for the info on Imrahil. I've never read "Unfinished Tales." I need to add it to my (long) list.
So there was another marriage with an elf. Was Mithrellas not part of the "eldar"? (Without my copy of Sil handy I can't remember all the categories of elves.) If so, that would explain why the Appendices could still talk about there being only three marriages between the eldar and the edain. And it sounds like she walked away from the relationship. I guess if there is a divorce than we don't have to deal the the question of where the couple spends eternity.
You raise a good question about the descendents of Elros - one that I think they themselves raised repeatedly through the years!
___________________________________________
Reply
Message 13 of 14 in Discussion
From: DaleAnn
Sent: 3/8/2002 3:39 AM
Sorry, Megn1, I meant to include that Mithrellas was of "lesser Silvan" origin.
One of the things that amazes me the most about Tolkien is that he wrote a "backstory" or explanation for almost every detail in LotR. Imrahil's family tree came out of the need to explain the comment by Legolas.
Ok, everybody, listen up. I have a 13 year old daughter. Guess what I have lived with every single waking moment since 12/20/01 when she first saw FotR!!!! I thought I found a place of refuge!!!!! Please, take pity on me!
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Message 14 of 14 in Discussion
Sent: 11/24/2002 1:43 PM
This message has been deleted by the author.