BookI Chap8: Confusion about the Barrows?

[MajahTR]

Illadria, Algamesh and I were in the Prancing Pony Chatroom today...soon the talk drifted to the Barrow Downs. We realized that we had all been confused at one time or another by the episode.
Back in the previous chapter there is a passage: "A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind." This can lead a person to believe that Sauron himself (shadow) came and stirred the Barrow-wights (bones).
But, when you look at Appendix A: section iii: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur. "It is said that the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, as the Barrow-downs were called of old, are very ancient, and that many were built in the days of the old world of the Frst Age by the forefathers of the Edain...therefore revered by the Dunedain after their return; and there many of their lords and kings were buried. [Some say that the mound in which the Ringbearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409.]" The Dunedain of Cardolan fought against the Witch-king and a remnant of them held out on the Barrow-downs in the war of 1409TA.
So this means that the timetravel dream or spirit possession of Merry was of one of the defenders. Perhaps, he was the last prince.
Then around 1636TA, the Witch-King sent the Barrow-wights to inhabit the mounds.

The early Edain and Dunedain were BURIED there. The Barrow-wights were BOUND there.

I still want to know whose brooch is it that Bombadil picked up....
DA

---

Unfinished Tales the Chapter "The Hunt for the Ring", states:

"It was at this time [during the Great Plague that reached Gondor in 1636] that an end came of the Dûnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."

and

"The Black Captain did not know whether the Ring was still in the Shire; that he had to find out. The Shire was too large for a violent onslaught such as he had made on the Stoors; he must use a much stealth and as little terror as he could, and yet guard the eastern borders. Therefore, he sent some of the riders into the Shire, with order to disperse while traversing it; and of these Kahamûl was to find Hobbiton, where 'Baggins' lived, according to Saruman's papers.

But the Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs; and from there some others [Black Riders] were sent to watch and patrol the eastern borders, while he himself visited the Barrow-downs.

The Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs."
Stormrider

---

I wonder what would have happened if the wight had been able to keep all of the Hobbits in its control and killed them:

1. What would it have done with the Ring?
2. Would it have turned it over to Sauron?
3. Would it even have been able to communicate to Sauron that it had it?
4. Would it have put the Ring on itself alerting Sauron to Its location?
5. Did Sauron even think to have the Ringwraiths check back in the barrows to see if a wight had laid its claws on any Hobbits?
Stormrider

---

Storm,
What compelling thoughts so a little research and I came up with this:
From the Bestiary:
"Out of the Witch-Kingdom of Angmar many terrible and tortured spirits fled across Middle-earth, desperatly searching to hide from the ravening light of the Sun." "Demons whose bodies had been destroyed looked for other bodies in which their evil spirit could dwell"
"Who animated bones and jewelled armour of the ancient Kings of men"
From the Foster Guide:
"Evil spirits from Angmar who infested the great Barrows after TA 1636.
From TFotR, Fog on the Barow-Downs:
"Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!"
"for the spell of the mound is broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it."
Adding to what you located I am only assuming that Wights could not bear sunlight, so I doubt they would be eager to travel and return the Ring to Sauron.
I doubt they could use the Ring because they were spirits, they had no real form to command the Ring. Now I know your thinking "What about the Wraiths?" Well there spirits were manifest within the ring they were given by Sauron, hence they couldn't claim the One Ring for themselves either! Sauron was a spirit, but he still had a form, a liddless eye. So any power the Ring has would be moot in regards to a spirit creature, perhaps this might apply to Bombadil as well!
Now I think the Ring would have tried to influence it's destiny if the Wights had killed Frodo, and in this case I'm sure the Wraiths would have checked the Barrows then.
The reason Sauron didn't need to check the Barrows later on is because of the Ringwraiths report of the Ring being taken to Rivendell, at that point Sauron knew the Ring still existed, and he suspected it to be used by one of the Mighty there, or in Gondor. No reason to check Barrows after the fact.
I think I covered everything? Any debate? Rebuttal?
Namárië,
Iarwain
P.S. I want to know whose brooch that was too DaleAnn! But I have yet to find any more regarding it, funny with such a detailed description you'd think there would be a tale attached.

---

Iarwain wrote: "I doubt they could use the Ring because they were spirits, they had no real form to command the Ring. Now I know your thinking "What about the Wraiths?" Well there spirits were manifest within the ring they were given by Sauron, hence they couldn't claim the One Ring for themselves either! Sauron was a spirit, but he still had a form, a liddless eye. So any power the Ring has would be moot in regards to a spirit creature, perhaps this might apply to Bombadil as well!"

I can agree with this. The Ringwraiths were dominated by Sauron and would not have been able to claim it for themselves since they were under his control through the nine Rings of Men. So if the wight killed the Hobbits and it was able to include the Ring among its treasures, wearing the Ring itself would not have affected it. The wights were evil beings from Angmar but were not under Sauron's control as the Ringwraiths were because they had not possessed any Rings of Power themselves.

Therefore, the Ring would have lain around the barrows until the Ringwraiths happened to come back looking for it.

Thanks so much for clearing that up for me!
Stormy

---

Hmmm... interesing thought that the ring has no power in the hand of spirits and barrowwights. Even more interesting when you throw in the idea that Tom is a spirit. Could explain alot...
Abbie

---

I'm going to disagree...

I do not thing there is a clear line between "spirits" and other beings of Arda. Gandalf is one of the Maiar, and so is Sauron, so they could count as "spirits." I think that if Tom is, they are.

But is the Barrow Wight just a spirit? It has a hand (until Frodo hacks it off), so it has a finger to put the ring on. I think it probably would have, and would have received power according to its stature. Which I don't think would be very much. I think the Wight's primary power was fear - fear in the hearts of all living things. It would have been no match for the Nine, who would not have feared it.

But Iarwain, your post raises a question I have long pondered. If the Captain of the Ringwraiths had captured the Ring, would he have turned it over to Sauron? I think not. I think that neither he nor Sauron even consider what would happen to him if he possessed the One Ring. Or any of the other Ringwraiths, for that matter.

Let's suppose Frodo went up the hill to see who the Gaffer was talking to that night. With one quick stroke of the sword that Ringwraith would be in possession of the Ring. He sets off down the road, to re-join his captain.

As he rides, he fingers his treasure. He is alone, and the temptation to slip it on his finger becomes overpowering. Immediately the Ring claims him as its new owner. The other Ringwraiths become aware of him. Together they converge on him, and a mighty battle follows. The eight succeed in overwhelming the one rebel, who has not yet mastered the Ring. The Captain claims the Ring, in order that it might safely be brought to his master.

But it is a long road to Mordor. Along the way, the inevitable happens. But the Captain has time to learn to use the Ring. Soon he has the remaining seven Ringwraiths under his complete control, by the power of the Ring. They do not go straight to Mordor, but turn to Dol Guldor, where they set up their own center of power. A great war follows...

How would it end?

(BTW, I, too, would love to hear the story of the brooch. Anyone want to write it?)
Megn1

---

Megan,
The Wraiths ownership of their personal rings is their link to their existence, the One Ring is the conduit of this power. When they placed their personal rings upon their fingers, they became enslaved to this power which was that of Sauron's and gave up all hope of freewill. They did however have form, but that form is a result of their personal rings binding their enslaved spirits to their decaying bodies.
In the case of Wights they have no personal form unless they posess one. The hand you mention is in fact a decaying relic of the tomb, and not the personal body of the Wight but a posessed extremity used by a Wight to perform some task, in this case use the sword on the Hobbits. With no form, body if you prefer, they could not posess the Ring, and could only hoard it within their barrows until one would come who could defeat them (a Wraith), and claim the Ring.
So with Bombadil, although he appears to have form, he represents a more spiritual creature with his lack of needs for posession of things, and his lack of interest in power. This being my own assumptions based upon his character.
I really believe the Wraith and Wight information to be correct in regards to the Ring, and I have discussed this issue with others. Bombadil was just tossed in as a "hmmm maybe". Perhaps someone could find accurate definitions of Wraith and Wight that might show a definite path to Tolkien's reasoning. I will keep looking into this but in truth how are we to know that Tolkien implied such paranormal research into his characters anyway.
Namárië,
Iarwain

THE RING HAS ONLY ONE MASTER. If we have learned nothing, should we not have learned this? The ring twists the fate of the unknowing, pushes the direction of the unwilling, and coersces the mind of the just. The wraiths were already subjugated to Sauron, and I am sure the ring itself, would not stand in the way of it's getting back to the hand of it's master.

We are not aware of any malicious force gaining the ring in the story. Gollum was perhaps the most hapless, but surely also the most evil. If HE did not bring the ring to Sauron, it was because it was new found after the battle with Isildur and the Elves.

Once the ring passed to the right side of the "force", I believe at any time it could have been returned to the hand of Sauron very quickly and easily if ANYONE on the dark side ever possessed it. But they did not.

This was what the ring battled. Through (IMHO), the intervention of the Valar (if not Illuvitar himself), the ring remained in the possession of good, untill it's destruction. Also, one thing that bothers me is the strange confrontation at weathertop in the movie, which comes off much better in the book. The hesitation in the movie was like a pro wrestling laugh riot. The Wraiths could have cut his head off ten times, by the time they even inched close to him. What was that about?

Sorry, I am starting to ramble...........thoughts anyone?
Glor

[MajahTR]

Glor,
Extremely accurate and to the point, the Ring has only one master. But you open another can of worms with the case of Gollum:
Even though Gollum hoarded the Ring within his cavern for near 500 years, would he, if no other situation had occured (In this case Bilbo), benn drawn to Mordor with the Ring eventually? After all within his searching for the Ring he was drawn there.
And next it opens a bigger question when we look at what happened including Bilbo. Did the Ring have some measure of foresight? To explain that key moment of Gollum losing it, to explain that falling from Isildur's finger an exposing him to Orc arrows, or even Frodo's dissapearance at the Pony? Was the Ring perdicting and therefore causing events to allow for it's return to it's master? Could this foresight have been a part of Sauron he included within forging of the Ring, but for himself lost with Ring removed and explain the unsleeping paranoid eye form he took on?
Again we walk through a fog on these points, because it's not really known how deeply Tolkien thought out these motivations, and yet as with the Wraiths and Wights, when follow an idea, it opens another door to a grand theme.
Iarwain

---

Megn rubs her hands together - this has all the markings of the beginning of another epic debate!

---

Glor, I think I disagree with you.
You say "The Ring has only one master." I'm not sure about that. It can have only one master at a time, it is true. But I think that hands other than Sauron's can weild it.

The ring was made by Sauron, and will always serve his PURPOSE. But it will not necessarily serve him. No matter who weilds it, in the end it will pervert the purposes of that master to the purposes of its first master - control, domination, destruction, force, oppression... in a word, EVIL.

If the ring always served Sauron, then why does Sauron so fear that one of the heros on the side of the West will take the ring and use it against him. If the wearer of the Ring will inevitably serve Sauron, then he should rejoice at the idea that Aragorn might claim the Ring for his own. Sauron would then simply bide his time, waiting for the Ring to work on Aragorn, knowing that in the end the Ring will bring Aragorn to bow before Sauron.

But that is not what would happen. If Aragorn did claim the Ring, he could use it to overthrow and destroy Sauron. Sauron knows that will be the outcome. It matters not to him that in the end Aragorn would simply become a new dark lord. Sauron isn't interested in the victory of evil as an abstract concept (which is what use of the Ring guarantees). Sauron is interested in his personal victory.

Galadriel speaks of the danger of claiming the Ring. She says "In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen." Not beside the Dark Lord, or in service to him, but in place of him.

So clearly it is possible for someone other than Sauron to be master of the Ring, even though in the end the Ring has no master.

But Megn,
Say in the case of Galadriel, she did claim the Ring, she would disposes Sauron, in effect destroy all of him that was not a part of the Ring. The survival instinct is pretty strong in everything that lives perhaps being nothing has little apeal for the the Eye. Now granted that part of Sauron which he forged into the Ring would survive, I think the nature of this debate is whom and what would be able to claim or master the One Ring.
Gandalf goes into this as well saying that all he did with the intention of good, should he claim the Ring, would be twisted to evil. He in effect would become a new Dark Lord.
So this opens up the question of just how much of Sauron is within the Ring? Is it say half of all his malice and power? And although I believe the physical part of Sauron (the Eye) would be destroyed with the Ring being claimed by another capable of controlling it, I wonder how much of the Ring's power could be considered Sauron's residual. And if that residual would have in effect Sauron's consciousness? Because if this is the case then any whom claim the Ring would in fact be posessed of Sauron's residual, and be actually serving Sauron regardless of their own will.
I think it is difficult to answer any of these questions, because Tolkien dwelled little upon these subjects. But it sure makes for fun banter!
Namárië,
Iarwain

---

Interesting thoughts Meg and Iarwain. I think the fact that Sauron is actually destroyed by the destruction of the ring, means he poured MOST of his original power into it. Perhaps he was able to maintain his eye form by drawing some little power he could from the ring while it still existed. It would make sense then that his form is the ever searching eye.

It would be interesting to read a treatise somewhere on just the known facts about the nature of rings of power. Some searchable data base somewhere, that just pulls out every reference to "ring" in the whole of Tolkien's work. As Karo would say, I see a book here.......just need a few foot notes and bibliographies
Glor

---

Iarwain and Glor,

Yes, it would be the spirit and intent of Sauron that would conquer whomever claimed the ring. But not Sauron himself. My point here is that it would be possible for someone other than Sauron to claim the ring.

Now remember how even the best and most pure individuals, when they posess the ring, are reluctant to let go of it. Think of Sam, when it is time to return the ring to his master. Sam is the most loyal, obedient, and respectful servant we see, and the most pure of heart character in the whole book. But he is reluctant to return the ring, when it comes to it. Frodo doesn't even want to show the ring to others, and is loathe to hand it to Gandalf in Bag End. Bilbo, of course, has a hard time handing it over.

So we're back to my original argument, that if a Nazgul got the ring, he would claim it for his own, rather than hand it over to Sauron. The Ring would work on them far quicker than on Sam or Frodo, and no amount of loyalty to Sauron (or domination by him) would change that.

The Ring, though made by Sauron, and inhabited by much of his power, is not Sauron. It will work its addictive powers on whomever is in possession of it. A ringwraith, acquiring the Ring in the Shire, would have to carry it for many days to bring it to Sauron. Their wills are too weak to resist it!

Oh, what interesting battles would result. Sauron would be surprised! Or perhaps he foresees this danger, and has a plan...
Megn1

---

Megn1 I tend to agree with you on this.. that the ring has one master at a time and that certainly others could take the ring and wield it (whether they would be strong enough to do so is another matter and Tolkien alludes to the fact that if they weren't Sauron could twist it to himself ).

However, I differ on another point: The Ringwraiths, because they were totally possessed by Sauron, could not claim the ring....other creatures good and bad could possess it but not if they were in the total power of the Dark Lord....being in the Dark Lord's clutches means that you cannot have anything of his, maybe for a nano second, but no more than that. It was always my impression that the wraiths were enslaved to Sauron completely and were an extension of his malicious intent and therefore would have no reason to take the ring being bound the Sauron's mind and plans....the Ring and the Dark Lord are one as are the wraiths and the Dark Lord one... I always felt that they were the manifestation in bodily form of his malice.....
Almië Ilúviël

---

And this simple point.......Why would Sauron send the 9 to find the ring if that were a possible outcome? Surely Sauron is not that stupid? He must have felt secure in sending the 9 after the ring.
Glor

---

Well yes Glor, absolutely...! (although he has been known to under-estimate his foe!!)
Almië Ilúviël

---

I like the concept Megn, but here is some info although not clear, I think it makes a case that the Wraiths couldn't do that:
"Nazgul- Nine beings, slaves of the nine rings. First appeared about SA 2250 beings utterly dependent on Sauron, or, more accurately, on his power acting through the One Ring."- The Complete Guilde to Middle-Earth. Robert Foster
We might also read in the the Ring verse:
One Ring to rule them all, (all the rings of power would be dominated by the one, and in the case of the Nazgul whom indeed each wore a ring of power, and owed their continued existence to wearing that ring they would in fact be ruled and have no freewill.)
Now what of Dwarves and Elves whom wore their seven and three rings, they had free will!
When the rings of power were forged by the Noldorin smiths of Eregion in the SA between 1500 and 1590 Sauron(Calling himself Annatar (S) Gift-lord) had a hand in the forging of all the rings except the Three, which were forged by Celebrimbor alone. Sauron never came into contact with them. It was in this way the Elves escaped falling completely under Sauron's power. But because Sauron had instucted the Elves in this craft his end would cause an end to any power any of the rings posessed.
In the case of the Dwarves, seems Aulë made them of sterner stuff than Sauron had expected. The Dwarvish rings seemed only to inflame more greed within the wearer, but the Dwarf lords proved to be uncontrollable. Perhaps Sauron should have paid more attention to his teacher Aulë in his salad days!
So although this really isn't solid proof one way or another, it is a good start for a Ring board within Enities of Arda. What do you think? Perhaps we could combine any info into a Ring lore board, although we must take care not to become ensnared as Saruman!
Namárië,
Iarwain

---

IARWAIN WROTE: "The Wraiths ownership of their personal rings is their link to their existence, the One Ring is the conduit of this power. When they placed their personal rings upon their fingers, they became enslaved to this power which was that of Sauron's and gave up all hope of freewill. They did however have form, but that form is a result of their personal rings binding their enslaved spirits to their decaying bodies."

MEGN WROTE: "So we're back to my original argument, that if a Nazgul got the ring, he would claim it for his own, rather than hand it over to Sauron. The Ring would work on them far quicker than on Sam or Frodo, and no amount of loyalty to Sauron (or domination by him) would change that.

The Ring, though made by Sauron, and inhabited by much of his power, is not Sauron. It will work its addictive powers on whomever is in possession of it. A ringwraith, acquiring the Ring in the Shire, would have to carry it for many days to bring it to Sauron. Their wills are too weak to resist it!"

Perhaps the Ringwraiths were tired of being slaves to Sauron and bound to his will. If the One Ring had control of them because of their own rings; I could see any one of the Wraiths attempting to take the One Ring for himself in an effort to be in control of the Ring which controls him thru his ring.

Most likely any Wraith would not have had the power, strength, stamina, or ability to maintain control of the One Ring nor the ability to fight off Sauron once Sauron found out the Wraith had the Ring. But the Wraith could have been at the breaking point where his plight was so grievious he would take the chance to steal the Ring for himself. Hopefully, he would be in control of his destiny for however much time it took for Sauron to find him and take it back himself. That may have been enough hope for any Wraith bound to Sauron's will.
Storm