Post by Stormrider on Jan 20, 2009 20:20:10 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 10:20 AM
Up to this point in the saga, Evil has been predictable and it's development somewhat lacking. It is here ... in the Week One assignment, that Evil begins to "develop" and becomes more complex ... especially concerning the concerted efforts of evil factions. Examine the orcs who captured Merry & Pippin for a moment. What are some of the attributes that we discover about the Forces of Evil? Is it easy to immediately discern them from the neutral or good factions in the story by certain specific mannerisms? What are the superficial differences between Good and Evil at this point? What do we learn about cooperative relationships within the Realm of Evil?
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 10/22/2002 10:04 AM
This is an interesting idea. I think initially, my reaction to the strife among the "good guys" (esp. 3 Hunters & Rohan) was "oh no!" However, this potential for them to make bad choices reminds me of a quote (lost where) of Gandalf I believe saying that those on the side of good are also dangerous...what a wonderful picture of Good this is to me: Good is not syrupy & innocuous, but powerful & ready to fight for what is good.
Seeing strife among the orcs I was very glad. But I didn't notice before that both sides had such great tensions in this section.
One difference would perhaps be that evil is grasping for selfish ends, & the good have strife on behalf of others: the Hunters wanting to search for Merry & Pippin, Gimli wanting to defend Galadriel's honor, & Eomer et al wanting to defend their own lands. The orcs were after their own benefits: not liking the command not to hurt the hobbits, & most obviously in Grishnak (sp?) grasping for the Ring.
It seems cooperative relationships among evil last only as long as each cooperator perceives its own ends are being furthered, or as long as scared into submission.
Others' thoughts?
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/5/2002 10:57 PM
What I noticed as a distinction between the strife among evil allies and that among the heroes is that the evil allies are not able to put aside their selfish ends in favor of the common goal. Contrast the Fellowship's willingness to all be blindfolded along with Gimli in Lothlorien to the Orcs's internal fighting. The orcs were unable to leave off their bickering, instead killing each other and delaying their passage so that they were caught and killed off by the Rohirrim. I reached this same theory during the Silmarillion study: Evil always, ultimately, implodes and destroys itself.
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/6/2002 4:55 AM
One great difference between Good and Evil could also be the lack of trust in one another at the side of the Evil conspirors. The big bosses do not trust each other, and even the common "warriors" don't. The only way that an Orc leader can trust his soldiers is when he knows for sure that they fear him. Another difference between Good and Evil: where the heroes trust and love each other, the bad guys only have a hint of trust based on fear. That is why Uglúk immediately sets examples, and he himself also obeys Sarumans orders only because he is afraid of him. Grishnák aslo doesn't dare to act openly out of fear for the bigger and stronger Uruk Hai. Instead, he tries to sneak off with the captives under cover of the night and during the confusion caused by the assault of the Rohirrim. Sauron cannot trust Saruman either, because the latter wants the ring for himself, something wich Sauron must know. In his mind, everone wants the ring, so I am sure that he will not trust any of his servants.
Namárië
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Luke Sent: 11/25/2002 12:32 PM
I have a question about what you said about trust. We know that the orcs dont' trust each other...and I think that's a very valid and important point...but on the flip side...do the heros really trust each other? We see them learn how to trust each other but at the beginning, the Dwarves and the Elfs really dont trust each other, right? Maybe I'm wrong.
But we DO see them trust each other later. Legolas and Gimli become close friends. So what's the difference? Both groups (the orcs and the heros) had a common goal in their own groups. Where does the difference lie?
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/26/2002 6:41 AM
Luke,
I think the difference is that the Orcs will NEVER learn to trust each other. They are bred for evil purposes and that is all that they know and all that they can relate to. If you know that the Orc next to you is just as evil as you are, how can you trust him knowing the way you are yourself!
The Elves and Dwarves are good beings of Middle Earth. They naturally would want peace and trust in their world. Over the ages they became influenced and deceived by Sauron and lost their trust in each other. Being thrown together on the Quest to destroy The Ring has brought Legolas and Gimli in close contact with each other. This has given them a chance to see each other as they really are and to marvel and wonder at each others values and integrity and form a close trusting bond again. This bond has enabled them to see other Elves and Dwarves in the same light and pass on the word that each species CAN trust each other again.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/27/2002 3:00 PM
Thank you Stormrider, exactly what I meant. I have nothing more to add. At least, not about the trust, or the ability to trust.
In another thread (Why do the Nazgul fear water?), I stated that Evil does not change. That is also a difference between Good and Evil, I think, Good changes, but Evil not. A reason why Evil can never learn how to trust one another, or never learn anything for that matter (except more different ways to do evil). And of course a major and obvious difference: where Good wants to preserve, Evil is only interested in destroying.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
Up to this point in the saga, Evil has been predictable and it's development somewhat lacking. It is here ... in the Week One assignment, that Evil begins to "develop" and becomes more complex ... especially concerning the concerted efforts of evil factions. Examine the orcs who captured Merry & Pippin for a moment. What are some of the attributes that we discover about the Forces of Evil? Is it easy to immediately discern them from the neutral or good factions in the story by certain specific mannerisms? What are the superficial differences between Good and Evil at this point? What do we learn about cooperative relationships within the Realm of Evil?
* * *
From: Questyn Sent: 10/22/2002 10:04 AM
This is an interesting idea. I think initially, my reaction to the strife among the "good guys" (esp. 3 Hunters & Rohan) was "oh no!" However, this potential for them to make bad choices reminds me of a quote (lost where) of Gandalf I believe saying that those on the side of good are also dangerous...what a wonderful picture of Good this is to me: Good is not syrupy & innocuous, but powerful & ready to fight for what is good.
Seeing strife among the orcs I was very glad. But I didn't notice before that both sides had such great tensions in this section.
One difference would perhaps be that evil is grasping for selfish ends, & the good have strife on behalf of others: the Hunters wanting to search for Merry & Pippin, Gimli wanting to defend Galadriel's honor, & Eomer et al wanting to defend their own lands. The orcs were after their own benefits: not liking the command not to hurt the hobbits, & most obviously in Grishnak (sp?) grasping for the Ring.
It seems cooperative relationships among evil last only as long as each cooperator perceives its own ends are being furthered, or as long as scared into submission.
Others' thoughts?
* * *
From: sparrow Sent: 11/5/2002 10:57 PM
What I noticed as a distinction between the strife among evil allies and that among the heroes is that the evil allies are not able to put aside their selfish ends in favor of the common goal. Contrast the Fellowship's willingness to all be blindfolded along with Gimli in Lothlorien to the Orcs's internal fighting. The orcs were unable to leave off their bickering, instead killing each other and delaying their passage so that they were caught and killed off by the Rohirrim. I reached this same theory during the Silmarillion study: Evil always, ultimately, implodes and destroys itself.
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/6/2002 4:55 AM
One great difference between Good and Evil could also be the lack of trust in one another at the side of the Evil conspirors. The big bosses do not trust each other, and even the common "warriors" don't. The only way that an Orc leader can trust his soldiers is when he knows for sure that they fear him. Another difference between Good and Evil: where the heroes trust and love each other, the bad guys only have a hint of trust based on fear. That is why Uglúk immediately sets examples, and he himself also obeys Sarumans orders only because he is afraid of him. Grishnák aslo doesn't dare to act openly out of fear for the bigger and stronger Uruk Hai. Instead, he tries to sneak off with the captives under cover of the night and during the confusion caused by the assault of the Rohirrim. Sauron cannot trust Saruman either, because the latter wants the ring for himself, something wich Sauron must know. In his mind, everone wants the ring, so I am sure that he will not trust any of his servants.
Namárië
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Luke Sent: 11/25/2002 12:32 PM
I have a question about what you said about trust. We know that the orcs dont' trust each other...and I think that's a very valid and important point...but on the flip side...do the heros really trust each other? We see them learn how to trust each other but at the beginning, the Dwarves and the Elfs really dont trust each other, right? Maybe I'm wrong.
But we DO see them trust each other later. Legolas and Gimli become close friends. So what's the difference? Both groups (the orcs and the heros) had a common goal in their own groups. Where does the difference lie?
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 11/26/2002 6:41 AM
Luke,
I think the difference is that the Orcs will NEVER learn to trust each other. They are bred for evil purposes and that is all that they know and all that they can relate to. If you know that the Orc next to you is just as evil as you are, how can you trust him knowing the way you are yourself!
The Elves and Dwarves are good beings of Middle Earth. They naturally would want peace and trust in their world. Over the ages they became influenced and deceived by Sauron and lost their trust in each other. Being thrown together on the Quest to destroy The Ring has brought Legolas and Gimli in close contact with each other. This has given them a chance to see each other as they really are and to marvel and wonder at each others values and integrity and form a close trusting bond again. This bond has enabled them to see other Elves and Dwarves in the same light and pass on the word that each species CAN trust each other again.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 11/27/2002 3:00 PM
Thank you Stormrider, exactly what I meant. I have nothing more to add. At least, not about the trust, or the ability to trust.
In another thread (Why do the Nazgul fear water?), I stated that Evil does not change. That is also a difference between Good and Evil, I think, Good changes, but Evil not. A reason why Evil can never learn how to trust one another, or never learn anything for that matter (except more different ways to do evil). And of course a major and obvious difference: where Good wants to preserve, Evil is only interested in destroying.
Namárië,
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend