Post by Stormrider on Jan 20, 2009 20:46:50 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/21/2002 8:38 AM
One of the things that really stood out for me in our Week One reading assignment is Aragorn's feelings of poor leadership and decision-making. Within the span of the first chapter, he utters, "It is I that have failed!", "Vain was Gandalf's trust in me ...", and "All that I do goes amiss ..." (twice). We finally get to see Aragorn humanized to some extent and for a first-time reader, this has to be quite distressing! What are Tolkien's motivations to show this side of the Dúnadan? What are some of the contributing factors leading to Aragorn's self-questioning? Are your feelings and expectations of Aragorn changing or evolving at this point in the story?
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/22/2002 7:21 PM
Aragorn's self-criticism was bothersome to me when I first read it. But now I think that in the context it makes sense. While he has always been a fighter and leader, he is entering a new phase, one in which he on the path to asserting his identity as Isildur's heir and the rightful king of Gondor. Most significantly, to me, he is now carrying Anduril. Narsil has been reforged and he is in the realm of the ancient predictions. For him, I think this must be a time of self-examination, is he really up to his destiny? I believe Tolkien was showing a man in the process of becoming someone larger than life.
Cathy
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/22/2002 8:59 PM
Tolkien's motivation I personally think was an unconscious one that mirrored his own battles within himself over what he could achieve (I think of him, for example, failing the exam for the scholarship here but I am sure there are many other instances where he felt he had made the wrong decisions and taken the wrong path....the writing of LotR not being one of them though!!!!).
The art of story telling uncovers the authors journey and also the readers and so it is our own battles on the road to self-actualisation that Tolkien alludes to here and I think why this moment in the book is so unsettling. We don't like those moments when we don't know what to do or what we have done seems to have had a negative effect on us and the people around us. These battles have to do with our own quest for our own Kingship, claiming our own throne, overcoming self doubt and our right to be the masters of our destiny. This is a moment in the book when Tolkien reaches right into the heart and pulls out our souls for we all wrestle at times with self doubt, indecision and disappointment. Aragorn is pulled at this moment between seeking his own answers and attending to the needs of others. He has moments of confusion and self doubt that pre-empt a growth is self-actualisation. Self doubt is a tool which clarifies and hones self mastery. Learning to choose and then trust our decisions, in the face of imperfection and compromise, is necessary in the process of self individuation, in the process of claiming the "throne" within. There are too many upsurpers out there willing to sit on an empty throne!
It is disturbing (I agree cathyL) to see Aragorn so lacking in direction but as you point out so well, it makes him real and his victory later, a deeper one. When he finally holds Narsil aloft and verbally claims his destiny (p423) it is in sharp relief to his self doubt and made the more luminous and stirring for it...We want out heroes to have no flaws and yet a hero with them is harder to extricate from our psyche. For me Aragorn at this point becomes real and when he says, " Well I have chosen, so let us use the time as best we may" and "Nonetheless we will still follow as we may" (p416) and "But evil or good we will await it here" (p420), his strength of resolve stirs the heart even more because the outcome of his path is unclear at best and hopeless at worst. The running on and on in the face of uncertainty for me is one of the most poignant parts of the book, to go on when you are not sure, when the scent is cold, when your quarry has disappeared, when your dreams have faded, when there is no sign to guide you....you run in search to claim something back, something that was taken, stolen or just forgotten.....your belief in and love for self, the mastery over your life......and perhaps it is true that the deeper the doubt the greater the victory....when Aragorn takes Narsil out of its sheath and holds it aloft, I think it is significant the words Tolkien uses at this moment "Here is the sword that was broken and is forged again!" (p 423). Our Hero was broken in spirit and yet in the pit of despair and self doubt he has been reforged, renewed....here is a tale of our own redemption and resurrection.....be still my heart... it gives us hope...
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/22/2002 9:33 PM
I would have to agree with CathyL that Aragorn is in the middle of a process of "becoming someone larger than life."
He's been a Ranger and a loner for most of his life. He is an accomplish hunter and tracker (the best that Gandalf has known-and that is saying something). He can "avoid to be seen" if he wishes. He's been a protege of Gandalf and Elrond learning what it takes to be a leader in bookish way, but not tried and true.
I can relate in a way... For most of my career I've been a teacher. It was my gift...I've never had to work at it... I came by it naturally. When I went back to get my Masters, I felt at home too. I love learning. I had wonderful mentors who said a was a natural leader... But after becoming an administrator...being in CHARGE... This is a TOTALLY different skill set... These skills were not as innate as my ability to teach... I had my doubts that I was fit to make decisions that effected both teachers and students. I often asked myself whether I was fit to lead.
Aragorn's previous "job" experience does not directly relate to leadership. Sure he's been in the "trenches" so to speak, but they hardly qualify him as a leader. Perhaps he's known all of his life that his destiny would bring him as leader of Gondor, but he's never been a leader. And now he is one...having to make decisions for a group of people.Aragorn doesn't trust his decisions because he hasn't had to make them for anyone but himself. Now he feels the pressure to lead and all the advice and knowledge he's gained will is being tested. And the recent disappearance of his mentor Gandalf is has forced into leadership sooner than he expected. But that is how it should be.This gradual transition will serve to build confidence. ... It is this fantastical story and setting that transcends reality that makes LotR a masterpiece.
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: megn1 Sent: 10/23/2002 12:39 AM
Aragorn stands out for us at the moment, because this is the only part of the entire trilogy when we are allowed "inside his head." This is the only place where we see things from Aragorn's point of view.
I am going out on a limb, and going to argue that the self-doubt we see here in Aragorn has always been a part of him. He is uncertain in Bree, and at various points on the journey to Rivendell. When on top of Weathertop they spy the Black Riders below, he realizes it was a mistake to stand in the open for so long, and blames himself. He was so desperate for a word from Gandalf that he was careless. The weight of the responsiblity of guarding and guiding Frodo is almost too much for him.
After the Fellowship is turned back by Caradhras, Aragorn says to Gandalf, "You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame." Gandalf doesn't blame him, but perhaps Aragorn blames himself. That was another poor decision.
As they prepare to leave Lorien, we see Aragorn almost paralyzed by indecision. He is never able to make up his mind whether to go with the ring to Mordor or with Boromir to Minas Tirith. Only when the decision is made for him is he finally able to choose.
As I said above, we see this indecision most clearly at the beginning of The Two Towers, because we are allowed to glimpse his inner thought process.
So what happens to Aragorn, that finally allows him to trust in his own leadership ability? Let's watch for it!
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/23/2002 6:11 AM
Oops... I can't help correcting myself. I wrote -... It is this fantastical story and setting that transcends reality that makes LotR a masterpiece.
What I meant was - ....What makes LotR a masterpiece is it transcends a fantastical story to reality.
Perhaps someone else should edit...
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/23/2002 10:19 AM
I think Megn makes a good point in regards to Aragorns self doubt. He was unsure from the begining leading the Hobbits into the wild, and seems up until this point there were battles with self doubt creeping just under the surface at times when Gandalf was not there to reassure. But take note, in the search for Gollum it was Aragorn whom had no loss of faith or self doubt and continued to track him until finally he was caught. Gandalf doubted and forsook the pursuit.
I bring up the last example to ask a question: Was it truely self doubt within Aragorn, that Tolkien wished us to precieve? Or more subtle was this self doubt an effect of the Rings proximity to Aragorn?
If you will note as we read on Aragorn makes bold desisions, and there outcomes become more or less favorable after Amon Hen, which is also after the Ring is no longer near him. Now I am not saying this is indeed what is going on here, but I noted it as a subtle nudge to express the Rings overall effect upon the comany. The three hunters become as if reborn in their pursuit of the Orcs.
I really enjoyed reading everyones input here, Aragorn has always been such the heros hero and it could be Tolkien wished to humanize him a bit here. I think I wait to hear more from others and reread some of Aragorns past adventures before I'll talk more on this.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:46 PM
I agree with the combination of Megn1's and Luthien's point of view. He has known all his life that he is Isildur's heir, and that must be a heavy burden too. I think his heirloom weighs on him more than he shows at first sight. He could fear that he just isn't right for it, that he isn't capable (I know I would freak out when placed in front of such a danger). What Luthien said is vey interesting, and I think this is general for any job. No matter how hard you study for something, putting the theory into practice is always the hardest. That is not only the case for leadership. He is making his first insecure steps, but slowly gaining more confidence( practice is the best teacher you can have). Which is only natural, after all. Maybe he falls from his pedestral there, but once you are used to this, you have to admire him even more.
Namárië
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Starlight Sent: 10/23/2002 2:45 PM
I think this self-doubt and questioning are the things that make Aragorn most appealing. This only serves to humanize him, to make him more real and "approachable." He would have seemed to much of the superhero if he did not have these questions about himself, and then the whole weight and importance of his mission and accomplishments would have been lost if he was capable and secure of his own strength from the beginning. We see how he grows into his heritage and this is a fascinating process. Had he not experienced doubt, and even fear to put it that way, he would not have been such an interesting character, being reduced to a hero who has all the qualities, and whom we know will triumph in the end -even though we know he does, but his questioning of his own abillities adds so much interest and depth to his personality!
In fact, (and please, allow me to stray a little) one of the things that I admire in Peter Jackson's film is Viggo Mortensen's portrayal of Aragorn. We see and feel the heavy burden that has been placed on him, and we truly wish that he will live up to it, that he will fulfill his mission with honor.
I really love how Tolkien made so many sides to his characters, allowing us to identify with them and actually get into the story. It is all very artful as a writing device, and also emotional if we consider how drawn we get into the narrative and struggles that surround the characters.
One of the things that really stood out for me in our Week One reading assignment is Aragorn's feelings of poor leadership and decision-making. Within the span of the first chapter, he utters, "It is I that have failed!", "Vain was Gandalf's trust in me ...", and "All that I do goes amiss ..." (twice). We finally get to see Aragorn humanized to some extent and for a first-time reader, this has to be quite distressing! What are Tolkien's motivations to show this side of the Dúnadan? What are some of the contributing factors leading to Aragorn's self-questioning? Are your feelings and expectations of Aragorn changing or evolving at this point in the story?
* * *
From: CathyL Sent: 10/22/2002 7:21 PM
Aragorn's self-criticism was bothersome to me when I first read it. But now I think that in the context it makes sense. While he has always been a fighter and leader, he is entering a new phase, one in which he on the path to asserting his identity as Isildur's heir and the rightful king of Gondor. Most significantly, to me, he is now carrying Anduril. Narsil has been reforged and he is in the realm of the ancient predictions. For him, I think this must be a time of self-examination, is he really up to his destiny? I believe Tolkien was showing a man in the process of becoming someone larger than life.
Cathy
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 10/22/2002 8:59 PM
Tolkien's motivation I personally think was an unconscious one that mirrored his own battles within himself over what he could achieve (I think of him, for example, failing the exam for the scholarship here but I am sure there are many other instances where he felt he had made the wrong decisions and taken the wrong path....the writing of LotR not being one of them though!!!!).
The art of story telling uncovers the authors journey and also the readers and so it is our own battles on the road to self-actualisation that Tolkien alludes to here and I think why this moment in the book is so unsettling. We don't like those moments when we don't know what to do or what we have done seems to have had a negative effect on us and the people around us. These battles have to do with our own quest for our own Kingship, claiming our own throne, overcoming self doubt and our right to be the masters of our destiny. This is a moment in the book when Tolkien reaches right into the heart and pulls out our souls for we all wrestle at times with self doubt, indecision and disappointment. Aragorn is pulled at this moment between seeking his own answers and attending to the needs of others. He has moments of confusion and self doubt that pre-empt a growth is self-actualisation. Self doubt is a tool which clarifies and hones self mastery. Learning to choose and then trust our decisions, in the face of imperfection and compromise, is necessary in the process of self individuation, in the process of claiming the "throne" within. There are too many upsurpers out there willing to sit on an empty throne!
It is disturbing (I agree cathyL) to see Aragorn so lacking in direction but as you point out so well, it makes him real and his victory later, a deeper one. When he finally holds Narsil aloft and verbally claims his destiny (p423) it is in sharp relief to his self doubt and made the more luminous and stirring for it...We want out heroes to have no flaws and yet a hero with them is harder to extricate from our psyche. For me Aragorn at this point becomes real and when he says, " Well I have chosen, so let us use the time as best we may" and "Nonetheless we will still follow as we may" (p416) and "But evil or good we will await it here" (p420), his strength of resolve stirs the heart even more because the outcome of his path is unclear at best and hopeless at worst. The running on and on in the face of uncertainty for me is one of the most poignant parts of the book, to go on when you are not sure, when the scent is cold, when your quarry has disappeared, when your dreams have faded, when there is no sign to guide you....you run in search to claim something back, something that was taken, stolen or just forgotten.....your belief in and love for self, the mastery over your life......and perhaps it is true that the deeper the doubt the greater the victory....when Aragorn takes Narsil out of its sheath and holds it aloft, I think it is significant the words Tolkien uses at this moment "Here is the sword that was broken and is forged again!" (p 423). Our Hero was broken in spirit and yet in the pit of despair and self doubt he has been reforged, renewed....here is a tale of our own redemption and resurrection.....be still my heart... it gives us hope...
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/22/2002 9:33 PM
I would have to agree with CathyL that Aragorn is in the middle of a process of "becoming someone larger than life."
He's been a Ranger and a loner for most of his life. He is an accomplish hunter and tracker (the best that Gandalf has known-and that is saying something). He can "avoid to be seen" if he wishes. He's been a protege of Gandalf and Elrond learning what it takes to be a leader in bookish way, but not tried and true.
I can relate in a way... For most of my career I've been a teacher. It was my gift...I've never had to work at it... I came by it naturally. When I went back to get my Masters, I felt at home too. I love learning. I had wonderful mentors who said a was a natural leader... But after becoming an administrator...being in CHARGE... This is a TOTALLY different skill set... These skills were not as innate as my ability to teach... I had my doubts that I was fit to make decisions that effected both teachers and students. I often asked myself whether I was fit to lead.
Aragorn's previous "job" experience does not directly relate to leadership. Sure he's been in the "trenches" so to speak, but they hardly qualify him as a leader. Perhaps he's known all of his life that his destiny would bring him as leader of Gondor, but he's never been a leader. And now he is one...having to make decisions for a group of people.Aragorn doesn't trust his decisions because he hasn't had to make them for anyone but himself. Now he feels the pressure to lead and all the advice and knowledge he's gained will is being tested. And the recent disappearance of his mentor Gandalf is has forced into leadership sooner than he expected. But that is how it should be.This gradual transition will serve to build confidence. ... It is this fantastical story and setting that transcends reality that makes LotR a masterpiece.
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: megn1 Sent: 10/23/2002 12:39 AM
Aragorn stands out for us at the moment, because this is the only part of the entire trilogy when we are allowed "inside his head." This is the only place where we see things from Aragorn's point of view.
I am going out on a limb, and going to argue that the self-doubt we see here in Aragorn has always been a part of him. He is uncertain in Bree, and at various points on the journey to Rivendell. When on top of Weathertop they spy the Black Riders below, he realizes it was a mistake to stand in the open for so long, and blames himself. He was so desperate for a word from Gandalf that he was careless. The weight of the responsiblity of guarding and guiding Frodo is almost too much for him.
After the Fellowship is turned back by Caradhras, Aragorn says to Gandalf, "You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame." Gandalf doesn't blame him, but perhaps Aragorn blames himself. That was another poor decision.
As they prepare to leave Lorien, we see Aragorn almost paralyzed by indecision. He is never able to make up his mind whether to go with the ring to Mordor or with Boromir to Minas Tirith. Only when the decision is made for him is he finally able to choose.
As I said above, we see this indecision most clearly at the beginning of The Two Towers, because we are allowed to glimpse his inner thought process.
So what happens to Aragorn, that finally allows him to trust in his own leadership ability? Let's watch for it!
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 10/23/2002 6:11 AM
Oops... I can't help correcting myself. I wrote -... It is this fantastical story and setting that transcends reality that makes LotR a masterpiece.
What I meant was - ....What makes LotR a masterpiece is it transcends a fantastical story to reality.
Perhaps someone else should edit...
* * *
From: IarwainBen-adar1 Sent: 10/23/2002 10:19 AM
I think Megn makes a good point in regards to Aragorns self doubt. He was unsure from the begining leading the Hobbits into the wild, and seems up until this point there were battles with self doubt creeping just under the surface at times when Gandalf was not there to reassure. But take note, in the search for Gollum it was Aragorn whom had no loss of faith or self doubt and continued to track him until finally he was caught. Gandalf doubted and forsook the pursuit.
I bring up the last example to ask a question: Was it truely self doubt within Aragorn, that Tolkien wished us to precieve? Or more subtle was this self doubt an effect of the Rings proximity to Aragorn?
If you will note as we read on Aragorn makes bold desisions, and there outcomes become more or less favorable after Amon Hen, which is also after the Ring is no longer near him. Now I am not saying this is indeed what is going on here, but I noted it as a subtle nudge to express the Rings overall effect upon the comany. The three hunters become as if reborn in their pursuit of the Orcs.
I really enjoyed reading everyones input here, Aragorn has always been such the heros hero and it could be Tolkien wished to humanize him a bit here. I think I wait to hear more from others and reread some of Aragorns past adventures before I'll talk more on this.
Namárië,
Iarwain
* * *
From: Alaere_Dûnhilien Sent: 10/23/2002 1:46 PM
I agree with the combination of Megn1's and Luthien's point of view. He has known all his life that he is Isildur's heir, and that must be a heavy burden too. I think his heirloom weighs on him more than he shows at first sight. He could fear that he just isn't right for it, that he isn't capable (I know I would freak out when placed in front of such a danger). What Luthien said is vey interesting, and I think this is general for any job. No matter how hard you study for something, putting the theory into practice is always the hardest. That is not only the case for leadership. He is making his first insecure steps, but slowly gaining more confidence( practice is the best teacher you can have). Which is only natural, after all. Maybe he falls from his pedestral there, but once you are used to this, you have to admire him even more.
Namárië
Lara Bumbleroot of Haysend
* * *
From: Starlight Sent: 10/23/2002 2:45 PM
I think this self-doubt and questioning are the things that make Aragorn most appealing. This only serves to humanize him, to make him more real and "approachable." He would have seemed to much of the superhero if he did not have these questions about himself, and then the whole weight and importance of his mission and accomplishments would have been lost if he was capable and secure of his own strength from the beginning. We see how he grows into his heritage and this is a fascinating process. Had he not experienced doubt, and even fear to put it that way, he would not have been such an interesting character, being reduced to a hero who has all the qualities, and whom we know will triumph in the end -even though we know he does, but his questioning of his own abillities adds so much interest and depth to his personality!
In fact, (and please, allow me to stray a little) one of the things that I admire in Peter Jackson's film is Viggo Mortensen's portrayal of Aragorn. We see and feel the heavy burden that has been placed on him, and we truly wish that he will live up to it, that he will fulfill his mission with honor.
I really love how Tolkien made so many sides to his characters, allowing us to identify with them and actually get into the story. It is all very artful as a writing device, and also emotional if we consider how drawn we get into the narrative and struggles that surround the characters.