Post by Stormrider on Jan 21, 2009 6:52:57 GMT -6
From: Lord_Algamesh (Original Message) Sent: 10/28/2002 10:22 PM
During our Week Two assignment, we learn that some of the trees in Fangorn have become evil and that their hearts are corrupt and black. Treebeard describes this in length and Legolas indicates "faint echoes" of such within the depths of the forest. In FOTR, we are introduced to Old Man Willow, a tree entity who is described similarly by Bombadil.
So ... what's up with Trees? Are there any influences that Tolkien may have followed to create these odd agents of evil? Do you feel that the idea of an 'evil tree' is "tangible" evil? What are the reasons or origins of evil trees and are they connected with Sauron or other sentient forces of evil in Middle-earth?
Your thoughts?
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 10/29/2002 1:04 PM
The trees in the Old Forest were angry and evil because the Hobbits cut them down and burned them when they started creeping up on the Hobbits territory.
The trees of Mirkwood were very creepy and evil feeling. I always wondered why Elves would choose to live in such a forest. I could understand the influence of the Necromancer residing in Mirkwood would have had an ill affect on these trees but I don't think that was the entire reason for their strange eeriness.
Now the trees of Fangorn? Perhaps that was something from long ago in the early ages when the Edain were cutting down trees and killing animals needlessly. (I believe there is something about that in the Silmarillion but can't recall exactly where). It seems that some of the Elves did not wish to have anything to do with the Men because of this.
Perhaps the trees are just getting more treeish in nature due to evolution of their kind and this make them angry and evil. In a way, it is similar to old age. Our bones and bodies begin to slow down and creak and protest. Some older people are angry about that!
Then wasn't Saruman cutting down trees for his evil purposes? The trees may have been reacting to that.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 10/31/2002 5:22 AM
I have a more psychological answer. Like Storrmrider said, forrest were been cut down (by hobbits, Saruman). Maybe the trees are getting angry because they feel helpless against it all. They can't do anything to stop this destruction. But while they get more and more angry, they can't loose the pressure that is building up. I think everyone needs to let off steam once in a while or else burst like a bomb. But how can a tree do this? (I go skating - very, very hard) That's not quite easy for them. They get 'evil', or always in a bad mood. They develop a hatred towards every other non-tree creature, it's their fault that forests become thin. They start working out their bad feelings on every who by accident passes by. They become very unjoyable to be near with. Maybe like grumpy old men.
Do I have an A for tree-psychology?
Orgulas
* * *
From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 10/31/2002 6:20 AM
Orgulas, I'd say you do...
Pearlbloom
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 11/11/2002 3:02 PM
Algamesh wrote (in part):
"Do you feel that the idea of an 'evil tree' is "tangible" evil? What are
the
reasons or origins of evil trees and are they connected with Sauron or
other sentient forces of evil in Middle-earth? Your thoughts?"
They strike me as more crochety than evil. Inflexible and stubborn. And
don't forget: There haven't been any women trees around for centuries ;-)
Diana
* * *
From: Calensariel Sent: 11/11/2002 6:49 PM
Orgulas wrote:
"Maybe the trees are getting angry because they feel helpless against it all."
I agree. I would imagine that the trees, like anyone else, had a choice to make about how they reacted to their circumstances. Some took things in stride and did what they could (Treebeard), while others just sat back and whined and complained and got very angry. Don't we see that in the world around us all the time? And feeling impotent and vulnerable can make one feel very, very angry.
Calen~
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 11/11/2002 9:59 PM
I tend to see the trees and forests as archetypal symbols of the subconscious. As such, many things lurk there in the dark of our repressed thoughts and feelings. Rumblings surface, and as Calen said they can be manifestations of anger and sadness that have been repressed. This is how I understand the trees turning dark. They are unable to express their pain and anger and have had enough....they have become defensive, brooding, vigilant and mistrustful, hateful even. If feelings are repressed for too long they ferment and sometimes the draught that was sweet becomes bitter.....and understandably so.
Ilúviël
* * *
From: MissingGrahamCrackers Sent: 11/17/2002 10:24 AM
Ok, I believe the trees in the old forest are angry for a good reason, first of all we must think of Old Man Willow. I am not sure exactly but I believe Old Man Willow is a spirit of malice and hate, kind of like the Wights of the Barrow Downs. Tom Bombadil said that over time he corrupted the wood and was seen in the shape of a large willow. Secondly, as described by Stormrider the Hobbits had the trees cut down when they started to sneak up on their territory adding to their hate.
The trees of Fangorn are angry because of the past devastation caused to their wood by the Orcs. The Orcs had cut living trees down and burned them for fires, the Ents always looked down upon the Orcs and axes with hate. Explaining the woods unrest when Gimli entered them.
The dark and evil woods of Mirkwood were influenced by the evils of Sauron in Dol Gulder and the Elves lived there because they had been living there before the evils of Sauron came to Mirkwood.
Tuor
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/19/2002 10:02 PM
I seem to get the feeling that something happened to the trees... something evil. I am not familar enough with the last half of the Silmarillion to figure it out. But the darkness of some of the trees must lie there. As Treebeard point out, no one is really looks after the trees except themselves. What happened between the Ents and the Elves. Didn't the Elves teach them speech? or awoke them from being "dumb" as Treebeard says? What is the darkness... Treebeard speaks of a time when the Valar came and water covered a section of ME forever... did many trees drown? Did the evil of Melkor or Saruon cause the trees of the forest to fight among themselves... did "animal life" Men, Dwarves and Elves do evil to the forest?
Hmmm... so many questions... maybe the experts will help me understand...
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: patty Sent: 12/6/2002 12:41 PM
I know most people will not agree with this, but the trees remind me of the trees in The Wizard Of Oz. This book is the first that I know of thatgive kife to trees. Maybe Tolkien read the book or say the movie and lioked the idea of living trees. Anyway, when I first read about trees that were alive in LOTR , Ithought of the trees of Oz
During our Week Two assignment, we learn that some of the trees in Fangorn have become evil and that their hearts are corrupt and black. Treebeard describes this in length and Legolas indicates "faint echoes" of such within the depths of the forest. In FOTR, we are introduced to Old Man Willow, a tree entity who is described similarly by Bombadil.
So ... what's up with Trees? Are there any influences that Tolkien may have followed to create these odd agents of evil? Do you feel that the idea of an 'evil tree' is "tangible" evil? What are the reasons or origins of evil trees and are they connected with Sauron or other sentient forces of evil in Middle-earth?
Your thoughts?
* * *
From: Storrmrider Sent: 10/29/2002 1:04 PM
The trees in the Old Forest were angry and evil because the Hobbits cut them down and burned them when they started creeping up on the Hobbits territory.
The trees of Mirkwood were very creepy and evil feeling. I always wondered why Elves would choose to live in such a forest. I could understand the influence of the Necromancer residing in Mirkwood would have had an ill affect on these trees but I don't think that was the entire reason for their strange eeriness.
Now the trees of Fangorn? Perhaps that was something from long ago in the early ages when the Edain were cutting down trees and killing animals needlessly. (I believe there is something about that in the Silmarillion but can't recall exactly where). It seems that some of the Elves did not wish to have anything to do with the Men because of this.
Perhaps the trees are just getting more treeish in nature due to evolution of their kind and this make them angry and evil. In a way, it is similar to old age. Our bones and bodies begin to slow down and creak and protest. Some older people are angry about that!
Then wasn't Saruman cutting down trees for his evil purposes? The trees may have been reacting to that.
Stormrider
* * *
From: Orgulas_Lostlindëion Sent: 10/31/2002 5:22 AM
I have a more psychological answer. Like Storrmrider said, forrest were been cut down (by hobbits, Saruman). Maybe the trees are getting angry because they feel helpless against it all. They can't do anything to stop this destruction. But while they get more and more angry, they can't loose the pressure that is building up. I think everyone needs to let off steam once in a while or else burst like a bomb. But how can a tree do this? (I go skating - very, very hard) That's not quite easy for them. They get 'evil', or always in a bad mood. They develop a hatred towards every other non-tree creature, it's their fault that forests become thin. They start working out their bad feelings on every who by accident passes by. They become very unjoyable to be near with. Maybe like grumpy old men.
Do I have an A for tree-psychology?
Orgulas
* * *
From: Pearlbloom_Greenleaf Sent: 10/31/2002 6:20 AM
Orgulas, I'd say you do...
Pearlbloom
* * *
From: Amaranth Sent: 11/11/2002 3:02 PM
Algamesh wrote (in part):
"Do you feel that the idea of an 'evil tree' is "tangible" evil? What are
the
reasons or origins of evil trees and are they connected with Sauron or
other sentient forces of evil in Middle-earth? Your thoughts?"
They strike me as more crochety than evil. Inflexible and stubborn. And
don't forget: There haven't been any women trees around for centuries ;-)
Diana
* * *
From: Calensariel Sent: 11/11/2002 6:49 PM
Orgulas wrote:
"Maybe the trees are getting angry because they feel helpless against it all."
I agree. I would imagine that the trees, like anyone else, had a choice to make about how they reacted to their circumstances. Some took things in stride and did what they could (Treebeard), while others just sat back and whined and complained and got very angry. Don't we see that in the world around us all the time? And feeling impotent and vulnerable can make one feel very, very angry.
Calen~
* * *
From: Ilúviël Almarië Sent: 11/11/2002 9:59 PM
I tend to see the trees and forests as archetypal symbols of the subconscious. As such, many things lurk there in the dark of our repressed thoughts and feelings. Rumblings surface, and as Calen said they can be manifestations of anger and sadness that have been repressed. This is how I understand the trees turning dark. They are unable to express their pain and anger and have had enough....they have become defensive, brooding, vigilant and mistrustful, hateful even. If feelings are repressed for too long they ferment and sometimes the draught that was sweet becomes bitter.....and understandably so.
Ilúviël
* * *
From: MissingGrahamCrackers Sent: 11/17/2002 10:24 AM
Ok, I believe the trees in the old forest are angry for a good reason, first of all we must think of Old Man Willow. I am not sure exactly but I believe Old Man Willow is a spirit of malice and hate, kind of like the Wights of the Barrow Downs. Tom Bombadil said that over time he corrupted the wood and was seen in the shape of a large willow. Secondly, as described by Stormrider the Hobbits had the trees cut down when they started to sneak up on their territory adding to their hate.
The trees of Fangorn are angry because of the past devastation caused to their wood by the Orcs. The Orcs had cut living trees down and burned them for fires, the Ents always looked down upon the Orcs and axes with hate. Explaining the woods unrest when Gimli entered them.
The dark and evil woods of Mirkwood were influenced by the evils of Sauron in Dol Gulder and the Elves lived there because they had been living there before the evils of Sauron came to Mirkwood.
Tuor
* * *
From: LovesBeren Sent: 11/19/2002 10:02 PM
I seem to get the feeling that something happened to the trees... something evil. I am not familar enough with the last half of the Silmarillion to figure it out. But the darkness of some of the trees must lie there. As Treebeard point out, no one is really looks after the trees except themselves. What happened between the Ents and the Elves. Didn't the Elves teach them speech? or awoke them from being "dumb" as Treebeard says? What is the darkness... Treebeard speaks of a time when the Valar came and water covered a section of ME forever... did many trees drown? Did the evil of Melkor or Saruon cause the trees of the forest to fight among themselves... did "animal life" Men, Dwarves and Elves do evil to the forest?
Hmmm... so many questions... maybe the experts will help me understand...
Luthien (Sarah)
* * *
From: patty Sent: 12/6/2002 12:41 PM
I know most people will not agree with this, but the trees remind me of the trees in The Wizard Of Oz. This book is the first that I know of thatgive kife to trees. Maybe Tolkien read the book or say the movie and lioked the idea of living trees. Anyway, when I first read about trees that were alive in LOTR , Ithought of the trees of Oz